The Secret Ballot Is the Foundation of Democratic Governments

[MineralMan]

Trump's voter fraud panel is attempting to get its foot in the door of destroying that foundation. Voter registration information, on its own, really tells nobody anything, except that a person has registered to vote. However, when combined with the additional information that panel is demanding from the states, those demands go far beyond that.

In Minnesota, the only voter registration information that is public is the voter's full name and address, along with the year of birth. We don't register by party in Minnesota, so party affiliation is not part of the record. However, when you register to vote in this state, you also have to supply your birth date, phone number, email address, along with identifying information such as the last four digits of your SS number, your driver's licence number or state ID number, or some other identifying information.

None of that is public information, Only your name and address is public. I believe they also release the year of birth for age determinations.

As anyone who has dealt with banks and many other places knows, your birth date and the last four digits of your SS number are often used to prove that you are the person connected with your account. For the government to release that information and make it public opens the door to identity theft. Such information should not be a matter of publicly available records.

In most states, anyone can request voter registration records. Typically, they have to pay a fee for them to defray costs. But, those public records do not include personal identification information that might make you vulnerable to identity theft. Your name, address and party affiliation are all that is typically supplied by the states.

And, beyond that SS# number identifier and birth date, Trump's voter fraud panel also wants to know what years you voted, whether you have a criminal record, and more information. It also wants any information about former voter registrations, information that is often collected when you register, so they can contact the former jurisdiction to allow deletion of previous registrations. That goes way, way beyond reasonable government access requirements and simply should not be provided by the states.

This is a 4th Amendment violation for the Federal Government. States control elections in this country, and always have. It is part of the nature of our constitutional government. The federal government does not have authority over elections. That is reserved for the "people," since it is not assigned by the Constitution to the federal government. Trump and his minions have no right to such information from the states.

Bottom line: For the federal government to demand delivery of that information from the states violates our 4th Amendment rights and the powers of the individual states to control the election process. It is overstepping the authority of the federal government. Every Secretary of State in the 50 states should simply refuse the demands for these extensive and privacy-invading demands.

[Trial_By_Fire]

1. I would say that education, free press, and accurate & verifiable voting...

...are the foundations for democratic governments...

[MineralMan]

2. Those, too, of course, but I'm discussing the demands of Trump's

voter fraud panel in this thread.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. There are so many things wrong with this "commission" that I barely know where to start.

Of course the intent is voter suppression (and maybe Dolt 45 would like to have that database for his 2020 re-election campaign, assuming his flabby old orange ass lasts that long). But besides being oppressive and probably unconstitutional, this demand for data is really *stupid.* Apparently none of the numpties who decided to put this dog's breakfast together bothered to look at what kind of data the states have and which of the data are considered private. As it turns out, the states all have different laws about what can and can't be disclosed, or to whom.

Some states just said fuck you; you can't have any of it. And not all of these were "blue" states - some GOP state officials won't turn it over because of their opposition to Big Government and their belief in principles of states' rights. The Democrats said fuck you simply because they know the data would be used for voter suppression.

But even among those states that agreed to turn over some of the records, most of them said they'd give up only those data that were classified as public under state law. That means they weren't going to give up a lot of the data Kobach's goons want, like (depending on the state) SSNs, birth dates, criminal history, party identification and voting history.

So what this means is that whatever database they can eventually put together will be useless. If they can get only partial data from some states and none at all from others, they won't be able to reach any statistically credible conclusions about anything, let alone the "proof" of voter fraud they want the data to substantiate.

And, as you pointed out, why should vast amounts of data about individuals be compiled at a central repository with no assurances it will be secure, considering how easily major hacks have occurred in the past? Besides the Russian hack there have been numerous instances of hacks into corporations' records as well (Target got hit hard awhile back). A national database with identification data on damn near everybody would be a treasure trove for scammers, identity thieves and Russian (or other) hackers (assuming Trump doesn't just hand the password over to Putin himself).

[MineralMan]

4. I think the plan is to make all of that information public.

Another problem I see is false claims of registrations in more than one jurisdiction. I have a relatively common name. So do lots of people. I can just imagine the Trumpers claiming that all sorts of people are registered in multiple jurisdictions on that basis alone. Or, they might use birthdate information to link different people who were born on the same date and who have the same name. That would not be unusual for many common names in this country.

There are so many ways this nationwide database could be misused. Frankly, no public data should be collected that goes into that much depth. The IRS and Social Security Administration have such national databases, certainly, but access to them is highly restricted, and for good reasons. The same is true in most states for the Drivers' License databases, and for the same reasons.

We don't need yet another such database, especially in the control of a toxic, criminal administration.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. Yes, but making all of that information public would put hackers out of business!

My name is very common, too. There are at least three of us that I know of in just my Minneapolis neighborhood (and considering the neighborhood they are probably Democrats as well) because sometimes I get their mail. The opportunities for mischief are enormous. I'm hoping the ACLU will get on this if the commission tries to compel the states to release the information (assuming the individual state attorneys general don't; I'm sure ours would).

[MineralMan]

6. For now, the onus is on the Secretaries of State.

The ACLU probably won't get involved at this time. Fortunately, the concept of states' rights is strongly held, even in blue states. It's a fundamental part of the separation of powers. Most likely, the federal government can get access to publicly available data from each state, even if it has to pay the going rate for those data. However, anything not publicly releasable from any state should not be released. If the feds insist, then federal courts will take care of that if SOSes sue.

Given the Republicans' penchant for distorting data, I would not trust that data to them. They'll manipulate it to look like there was massive voter fraud.

[KingCharlemagne]

7. The principle of "one person, one vote" is the foundation of democratic governments, the

secret ballot merely a mechanism by which that vote is cast. Occupy Wall Street also had democratic govenment but its decisions were made in full public view with full public transparency.

Occupy Los Angeles veteran.

[MineralMan]

8. Occupy Wall Street was not a government of any kind.

Yes, one person, one vote is an essential party of it, but the secret ballot exists to prevent voter coercion or punishment for voting in a particular way. At an Occupy Wall Street gathering, as with most small, vote-driven organizations, there were no repercussions possible if someone voted a certain way. In actual fact, OWS was not a government organization of any kind, nor could it control anyone outside of its circle. Clubs and organizations, and even our legislative bodies use open, public voting. However, the private, secret ballot protects those individual voters from being singled out because of how they voted. In our elections, that protection of privacy is essential.

Comparing OWS with our local, state and federal government simply doesn't work. They are in no way similar, frankly.

[KingCharlemagne]

9. That's funny I was present at many GAs of Occupy Los Angeles and it sure

felt "like a government" to me.

[MineralMan]

10. What laws could you pass or enforce?

Governments govern. Movements don't. Movements protest and try to get people on their side. Governments are elected and govern. Minorities ask for and demand better government. If they can muster enough votes, they can elect governments.

OWS is not a government of any kind. It is a movement. It is a minority movement. When it becomes a majority movement, it will elect government officials. Until then, it is nothing like a government. It's just a group of like-minded people demanding change, but without enough votes to make changes happen.

Movements are in no way like governments. They have no power to make or enforce laws. Governments have those powers.

[KingCharlemagne]

12. Well, the Los Angeles GA approved by unanimous consent many measures related to administration

of the camp outside City Hall. Mind you, the experiment here lasted only two months before Villain -raigosa unloosed his 1500 heavily armed goons against the 300-odd unarmed! campers.

oh wait, Villain-raigosa is a Democrat and we're not supposed to bash Democrats. Well, alert if you must, but I've made it my remaining life's mission to see to it that Villain-raigosa never holds elective office again.

[diva77]

11. We surrendered secret ballot when computerized voting became the middleman

We are supposed to vote in secret and have the votes counted publicly.

With privatized, computerized voting, we are not guaranteed that our votes are cast in secret.

And the tabulation is done with proprietary software, therefore, it is done in private. **A complete reversal of what democracy should be.**

Private corporations such as Choicepoint and Crosscheck were already handed voter data years ago -- with computerized pollbooks, interstate checking of voter rolls, etc. Also, voting equipment from corporations such as ES&S and Sequoia has the capability to trace votes to voters.

The Secretaries of State have been undermining democracy by allowing the above mentioned to happen for years now. That is why, contrary to the values of American citizens, we find ourselves with a majority of Republicans in state and national offices.