To use a more pungent metaphor

[ProfessorPlum]

I'd rather have Sanders in the tent pissing out on Trump and the Fascists (great band name), than outside the tent pissing in.

If a few corporate friendly Democrats get a little Sanders pee on them, they can soothe their hurt feelings by rubbing piles of their lobbying money on it.

[lame54]

1. Outside the tent pissing in (great band name)

[anneboleyn]

58. Better album title than band name (imho) Too long for a band name. They are almost always

one or two words (think of for example Pink Floyd vs Dark Side of the Moon -- DSotM would never have worked as a band name since a band name needs to be quick and catchy and capable of appearing on posters/advertising without requiring multiple lines of text).

I don't know why I took your fun post in a "serious" manner but your post made me start thinking about the hows and whys of band names. (I know there are exceptions to the rule but bands like The Flaming Lips still fit the model).

I think "Tent Pissers" or "The Tent Pissers" or "The Pissing Tents" would be great for a punk band.

[hrmjustin]

2. I wish he didn't say

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/329559-sanders-i-dont-know-if-ossoff-is-progressive

[ProfessorPlum]

3. What the heck is wrong with that?

Do you have iron clad proof that Ossoff is a progressive, and proof that Sanders has seen that proof?

Such minor complaints

[hrmjustin]

4. The point is he should not be criticizing him or say anything that could hurt the candidate.

[ProfessorPlum]

6. Maybe most people in Ossoff 's district hate progressives

Ever think of that?

[hrmjustin]

8. I have but I don't think that is why he said that.

And have you considered his statement might hurt Ossoff with the left?

[ProfessorPlum]

13. He just may not know him that well

Fortunately, the Democratic party has a deep bench of heavy hitters who can work for Ossoff and they don't have to rely on Sanders alone.

[hrmjustin]

15. His words matter. It gets reported in the press.

That is the point people here were trying to make.

[ProfessorPlum]

17. _All_ members of the Democratic coalition's words matter

I'm sure you know what each Democratic senator's stand on the progressiveness of Ossoff is, because that is important context to place Sander's statement in.

[hrmjustin]

22. Is there another member questioning Ossoff's progressive credentials to the press?

If there is please let me know.

[riderinthestorm]

25. It's interesting Obama called the French candidate Macron but no US candidates

Nor has he offered any support or endorsements. I love Obama and actually think his star shines brighter than Bernie.

Yet... silence.

Is it possible we don't know the full picture or strategy and we're critiquing blindly? Why would Obama call.a French candidate, and not any of ours?

TBH, I think Bernie's just an honest guy. He doesn't know Ossoff and said so. There's nothing more nefarious than that and ascribing motives is divisive.

[hrmjustin]

29. Obama didn't question Ossoff's progressive credentials.

Obama didn't say anything that could hurt Ossoff. If Obama and Sanders were asked not to campaign then I would understand. But Sanders screwed up by questioning his progressive credentials IMHO. I don't think he did it maliciously like some here do, but I think it was unhelpful and he deserved to be criticized for it.

[NCTraveler]

5. Kick

[randome]

7. I'd rather NOT have someone supporting an abortion restriction advocate, though.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[BainsBane]

10. There you go being divisive

raising something so inconsequential as the rights of just over half the population of America. Don't you realize what really matters is how much money the demographic already wealthier than we xx cultural warriors?

[randome]

12. So he's just pissing in one corner of the tent, then. I guess that's what they call a compromise.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[panader0]

20. Ellison and Perez are there too. Hate them too?

[randome]

30. I trust them more than an outsider.

Especially one who thinks he knows what's best for parties he refuses to be part of.

[QC]

33. "Heath Mello was rated 100% by Planned Parenthood Voters of Nebraska"

Last edited Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:19 AM - Edit history (1)

https://votesmart.org/candidate/103098/heath-mello

Correction: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/omaha-mayoral-candidate-under-fire-says-he-would-never-do-anything-to-restrict-access-to-reproductive-health-care_us_58f8e868e4b018a9ce590a84

[randome]

45. Well, that's a surprise.

[tammywammy]

54. Planned Parenthood Voters of Nebraska had this to say

PPVN, the political arm of the family-planning organization, pushed back on the claim that it gave Heath Mello a 100 percent rating. The group’s scorecard from 2011 shows Mello “voting against Planned Parenthood’s position on three votes ― all abortion related.”

“Planned Parenthood Voters of Nebraska has never endorsed Heath Mello for public office nor has Planned Parenthood Voters of Nebraska given Heath Mello a 100% rating, as some media outlets have erroneously reported,” the group said in a statement.

“Heath Mello has introduced and supported anti-choice legislation during his time at the Nebraska Unicameral, and Planned Parenthood Voters of Nebraska strongly opposed him when he took such actions,” the statement continues. “Over the course of Heath Mello’s campaign for Omaha Mayor he has said loud and clear he supports Planned Parenthood and wants to protect the work we do. Although he has not started that conversation with us, our door is always open and we welcome the opportunity to start a productive dialogue on how Heath Mello can help us promote and protect access to women’s health care in Nebraska.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/omaha-mayoral-candidate-under-fire-says-he-would-never-do-anything-to-restrict-access-to-reproductive-health-care_us_58f8e868e4b018a9ce590a84

[Starry Messenger]

56. Thanks. Bookmarking this post.

[QC]

57. Thank you for correcting that. I will note it here and on the other post. n/t

[sheshe2]

62. Thanks for this, Tammy!

[Starry Messenger]

9. So Sanders gets to throw abortion rights under the bus without any criticism from his fan club?

I'll care about Democratic Party fundraising when I see some support for my issues from the side that is being divisive.

[ProfessorPlum]

14. That's an interesting claim

[Starry Messenger]

19. It's a fact, "Professor"

[ProfessorPlum]

21. I'll bite

back up your fact.

[Starry Messenger]

23. Sure.

http://myinforms.com/en-us/a/295662484-sanders-and-ellison-get-grilled-by-left-leaning-groups-for-supporting-pro-life-democrat/

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I., Vt.) and Rep. Keith Ellison (D., Minn.) faced criticism on Thursday from the liberal-leaning blog Daily Kos and the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League for their scheduled event embracing Heath Mello, a pro-life Democrat running for mayor in Omaha, Nebraska.

https://rewire.news/article/2017/04/20/why-is-dnc-embracing-aggressively-anti-choice-democrat/

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT), who campaigned on a progressive platform during his 2016 quest for the Democratic presidential nomination, will speak at a rally Thursday that will include anti-choice Democrat Heath Mello.

Sanders and Mello, along with Democratic National Committee Vice Chair Rep. Keith Ellison (D-MN), are scheduled speakers at the “Come Together, Fight Back, Vote Democrats” Rally in Omaha, Nebraska, where Mello is running for mayor. The event is a part of a party-sponsored national tour.

Sanders voiced his support for Mello in a statement published Wednesday by the Wall Street Journal. “If this fellow wins in Nebraska, that would be a shot across the board, that in a state like Nebraska a progressive Democrat can win, that will give hope to folks in other conservative states that perhaps they can win as well,” he said.

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a9203970/democrats-abortion-economic-justice/

On Wednesday's Morning Joe, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders went on to talk about working with Donald Trump and the future of the Democratic Party. Host Joe Scarborough brought up the question of abortion and other "social issues" that he said kept white working-class voters voting Republican in states like West Virginia, where they would gain more economic benefits if Democrats were in charge. He suggested that if Democrats want to win white working-class voters in states like Kentucky, they might need to run candidates who reflect the social values of those same white working-class voters — that is, opposing a woman's legal right to decide for herself whether to carry a pregnancy to term. Could Democrats, Scarborough asked Sanders, "be open to candidates that may not be rigidly pro-choice, may not be rigidly pro-gun control?" Sanders said yes.

[Vesper]

28. This!

[ProfessorPlum]

31. this is nothing new

And I wish it was, but there have been lots of anti-abortion Democrats before, especially in more backwards places.

But well done! This is the first time that someone has made an outrageous sounding claim about Sanders and then backed it up with actual data that supported the claim. That's something of a rarity here.

[Starry Messenger]

32. Your topic was Sanders.

A Senator with a stated track-record of talking down any candidate that doesn't fit his rigid list of qualities. That is also not an outrageous-sounding claim, but is well-sourced with much data. If he's going to hold most of the Democratic Party to these rigid principles, than the areas that he is willing to compromise in will be scrutinized sharply.

[ProfessorPlum]

34. "A Senator with a stated track-record of talking down any candidate that doesn't fit his rigid list"

Again, assertion with no proof.

[Starry Messenger]

35. See--the last 30 years of his holding office.

[ProfessorPlum]

36. You could also listen to the past decades of radio interviews he has done on the Thom

Hartmann show and actually learn something about the man, how his heart is in the right place, and his mastery of policy is impressive. The guy is a real human being and knows exactly why trickle down economics doesn't, and will never, work. He has been fighting this country's slide into proto-feudalism and fascism along with the best people in the Democratic party, and as a stalwart defender of what is best about this country and what makes it good and what makes it work for everyday people, he (along with excellent members of Congress and executive branch folks from the Democratic Party) has my gratitude.

Tell me which members of Congress, which Democrats, you think are just as good as Sanders on the issues. I have my own list that fits that bill, but it isn't as long as I would like it to be. Do you have such a list?

[Starry Messenger]

38. Several members of the Progressive Caucus are just as good, and better, on issues.

My former Rep. Barbara Lee, my present Rep. Jackie Speier, Rep. Mark Takano, Rep. Ted Lieu, and Rep. Eric Swalwell. In fact, most of my CA reps have put in the actual work of crafting legislation to ameliorate income inequality--and amazingly, without shoving women's issues under the carpet to do so.

I am perfectly familiar with Bernard Sanders.

[ProfessorPlum]

39. I don't think you are, certainly not in any "perfect" sense

I love Barbara Lee, Ted Lieu, and Swalwell. I don't the others as well. But my list of excellent Democrats is much longer than yours. And I get to add Sanders to my list as well.

[Starry Messenger]

41. I'm not going to type out several dozen names on a forum post.

That's absurdly pedantic. You get to love Sanders however much you want. What you haven't done is supported your thesis in your OP.

[ProfessorPlum]

42. I know, it's much easier to write several hundred words abusing Sanders

than it is to talk about Democrats you actually like (why is that?)

But I'm curious - what thesis in my OP do you think I haven't supported? Is there a thesis in my OP? Do tell.

[Starry Messenger]

43. Citation needed.

The only thing I have typed in this sad little string is proof that Bernard has feet of clay when it comes to women's issues.

Your OP asserted by implication that Bernard would have some kind of benefit to the Democratic party, facts not yet in evidence. However, if, as a grown man, you have not moved on from thinking passive-aggressive evasiveness is somehow cute, we're pretty much done here. I have a meeting to attend on housing justice.

[ProfessorPlum]

44. See Ya!

[Vesper]

27. He made it on a Morning Joe segment and is currently endorsing a guy who is a avowed

Anti Choicer who sponsored one of those ultrasound bills the Right is so fond of, the ones that require a wand to be inserted into a woman's body for political and not medical reasons.

[ProfessorPlum]

37. But if he didn't support him you'd ding Sanders for not supporting a Democrat

[Vesper]

46. Why do you make that assumption?

This guy is an anti choicer, and my criticism is of the support of a man whose policy position is not progressive, not liberal, not Democratic, and which assails the human rights of women. I do not u derstand what you base this assumption on, literally no other he is suggesting that blind support of any Dem is required or expected. From the posts I have been reading that level of jingoism is reserved for Bernie, Tulsi Gabbard and Susan Sarandon for some reason.

Why is he supporting right wing types and not Dems who are actually progressive like Ossoff? A mayor of Omaha can do more damage to women in his city with this guy's beliefs, but Bernie supports him.

The imaginative thinking needed here to support this supposed victimhood is strange.

The attacks on Washington Post, and anyone questioning this odd behavior is stranger still. What is going on here?

[ProfessorPlum]

47. Who's attacking the Washington Post?

And I will point you to people bashing Sanders for not backing Democrats as to the source for my reply.

[Vesper]

50. Several people on other threads, who did not like anyone questionng

Bernie. If you cannot point to me doing that, then your reply was wrong, presumptuous and invalid. This all out preemptive defense of Bernie from imagined attacks and well deserved criticism in shall we say a "pungent" manner is offensive.

Why is no one allowed to criticize him, when people like Manchin, who are not doing these flagrantly in progressive things are fair game.

[BainsBane]

11. Yeah, because making women's rights a priority is just so "corporate"

Last edited Thu Apr 20, 2017, 08:07 PM - Edit history (1)

So what if women are already poorer than men? So what if curtailing or eliminating reproductive rights greatly increases the number of women in poverty, and with them the children who make up the future generations of America? To be non-corporate, I must realize that the truly important issue is the bottom line of the demographic that already earns more and that any concerns about women's insignificant lives just makes us corporate stooges.

It would nice to see some honesty about what people really care about. I don't for a second buy your corporate spiel. To insist corporatism is defined entirely around reverence for one politician is absurd, and I doubt anyone can actually believe that. The ease with which women's rights are abandoned makes all too clear what is really happening. The effort to impose a great man, top-down hierarchy is perfectly in keeping with a political ethos than casts the lives of the majority of Americas as a distraction. The appeal for sympathy toward white male Trump voters over the concerns of the Democratic base makes more sense all the time.

[musette_sf]

24. + 1 xoxo

[ProfessorPlum]

40. you _keep_ strawmanning me

I'm happy to answer questions, if you care to know the answers.

Like "Do you think the fight against corporatism is defined entirely around reverence for one politician?"

I would say "No, that's absurd and a stupid question".

See? Like that. Then you could actually know what my positions are instead of just making them up as you think of them.

[Vesper]

48. Requesting arguments you created yourself to evade arguments you cannot

answer meets the definition of the Strawman fallacy, you just stated you would prefer straw men if your own nakedness no and provided them.

And when you made assumptions about my positions, and just made them up, was that wrong as well, or are there different rules for you that do not apply to anyone else?

The hypocrisy is blatant and stunning.

[ProfessorPlum]

49. i can't make heads or tales of this word salad.

Must be late.

[Vesper]

55. That was not word salad, it was simple English.

Generally one's English skills are not subject to sundowning. It does help to know the definitions of the words one is using when projecting. Makes it easier to understand when you are caught doing it.

Since you are having trouble: Basically you did what you accused her of doing, both with the strawman thing, and the making assumptions thing.

Hypocrisy is when one has double standards for others than one does for himself. That seems to be what's going on here. It's basically poor argument, when one cannot refute a point. Falls under the ad hominem grouping. I can find you a link so you can understand debate concepts better, if you'd like. These are mistakes Novices make when they don't understand the rules of debate yet. They think they're being clever, when all they are doings losing the round. There are lots of resources around these days to learn the rules of rhetoric, even when you don't have a coach around these help.

Might be good to peruse the basics, helps construct stronger arguments.

Also, look up "word salad" it does not mean what you think it does. If vocal is a problem, leave the technical terminology to those with the background to use it, or look it up before making the attempt.

[kcr]

59. I had no trouble understanding the post you responded to.

Not even a little bit.

I'm sorry. That might have been hard:
The words in the post were very easy to read. When I was finished reading the post, I understood the words. It was not difficult for me.

[Vesper]

63. Thank you, I was wondering what the confusion was.

Possibly some sort of politically induced alexia?

[ProfessorPlum]

65. " you just stated you would prefer straw men if your own nakedness no and provided them. "

what on earth does this mean?

[Vesper]

66. Ah autocorrect, still not word salad.

Had you simply asked politely, I could have explained.

In fact I did explain, you made up things yourself, your own straw men and had a little make believe joust. While you accused the poster of doing what you did.

I literally broke it down for you in my response. Simple English.

[mac56]

16. THIS

Word to the herd.

[ProfessorPlum]

18. ha ha

good stuff

[ananda]

26. *like*

nt

[PatrickforO]

51. LOL. Awesome.

Very nice post.

Trump and the Fascists - the DEATH metal group.

[Squinch]

52. Hey, guys! Over here! When you are finished with the fights about Sanders, you might want to

take note of the fact that THE FUCKING WORLD IS BLOWING UP!

In case you haven't noticed, this is not the time to be parsing whether a person is perfectly progressive enough or whether they like Sanders enough. This is the time for everyone who is politically to the left of bat shit crazy to be sticking together.

Because, ya know, THE FUCKING WORLD IS BLOWING UP!

I think these threads are moronic and destructive because, see, THE FUCKING WORLD IS BLOWING UP!, so I went so far as to trash keywords "Bernie" and "Sanders" and I STILL can't get away from this bullshit.

Jaysus.

[emulatorloo]

53. Well said and +1

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. LOL

[MineralMan]

61. I'd prefer Democrats to aim better and avoid spattering

other Democrats with their urine, frankly. As an old man, myself, I recognize that aiming gets more difficult with age, but a little extra attention does help keep things in their proper place.

I'd rather that Democrats would say nothing about other Democrats, rather than damning them with faint praise and raising questions about them. That's really easy to do.

[pnwmom]

64. Except he's been pissing in both directions, as usual. n/t