Go Back to the Old "Post Mortem" Forum and read what people

[LaydeeBug]

were saying in the fog of the aftermath of the coup.

LOOK at how many bots there were until after the electoral college met, and then they dropped off the face of the planet.

LOOK at how many naysayers there were, marginalizing and slowing down those of us who were saying, "They fucked with the vote"

LOOK at how many *swore* DU wasn't 'big enough' to hack on election day.

LOOK at how many told us to 'hone our message'. (aside: that *IS* the fucking message motherfucker)

They tried to make it about bathrooms

They tried to tell us we need to 'reach out to them'

Each time they tried to slow us down, or tell us we are wrong, they NORMALIZED this shit.

They are GASLIGHTING you.

Don't let that happen.

We have to stay on this. No other thing is more important.

THIS HAPPENED DOWN BALLOT TOO

[Lucinda]

1. KNR

[cbreezen]

2. Kick & Rec. n/t

[mcar]

3. They think we have short memories

[Akamai]

4. Almost certainly a bunch of agitators from the outside stirred the pot here.

[DetlefK]

5. Back then I was arguing back and forth on DU with a guy who I'm now 99% sure was a russian troll.

He was strongly pro-Russia, emphasized how misunderstood Russia is, engaged in whataboutism and highlighted the US' moral failings and refused to discuss his claims.

And 1 week after the election he stopped posting on DU...

I do remember his username, but I'm not gonna post it here.

[defacto7]

6. Thank you... this must always be kept in mind.

K & R

What is the best way to combat this when the perpetrators virtually hijack the message? We become vulnerable to being alerted on or sock trolled or even tagged as troublemakers by our own real members. I'm afraid it's a fine line between reality and misinformation if the perps are good at persuation within gray areas of conversation.

Bots become trolls if needed when their misinfo starts working and those trying to hold the fort get trapped in our own forum. I just stop posting... but I don’t want to give them ground by doing so.

If anyone has some pointers on how to combat this, I'd be glad to hear some input.

[kimbutgar]

7. My hubby wanted me to stop looking at DU because he said it was overrun with trolls prior to

The election. He disliked seeing how many people were attacking Hillary on DU. NOw we know they were trolls.

[synergie]

23. Most of us knew then as well, but were silenced. The archives make it clear just

who these guys were. The ones today are newly awakened and newly returned, but still using the same old playbook.

[triron]

8. Good observation

[Gman]

9. I don't know what your point is

But, they did not fuck with the vote, the message does need to be honed and MOST importantly, yes we need to reach out to them. These are voters that should be voting for Democrats, but didn't. They are poor and middle class whites that feel like a lot of things are being shoved down their throats that they do not agree with. The lesson is there needs to be a message of economics and widening disparity and Democrats will fix it. You likely don't want to hear it, but they are not handling gay marriage well. In fact they don't like it so much that they voted against their economic self interest. They are scared of the world because of the boogie man that's been created so they feel safe in their all white small towns and enclaves and vote Republican because their pastor said to. Fact is, we need them to win. The message needs to be honed. And messages that resonate were th them of economic justice work. Not any of the social issues dear to progressives. They will vote against their own self interest to vote against those things.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. "You likely don't want to hear it, but they are not handling gay marriage well..."

If they don't like same sex marriage they can just marry someone of the opposite gender. What is difficult about that ? That train has left the station.

[Gman]

16. Yup. The train won't be back either.

And they will still vote Republican. Their natural home is in the Democratic Party. And with that attitude they're content to continue to vote for Republicans. And we'll have President Pence elected to a full term and an even greater GOP congress.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. I am not willing to throw gay people under the bus to sate the appetite of a horde of homophobes

Other people's mileage might vary.

Last I checked we won the pop vote by 3,000,000 with the Russians and the FBI colluding against us while losing the Electoral College by a scant 70,000 votes. We don't have to sell our souls to win.

[Gman]

22. Nobody is asking you to.

And the last I checked, we lost several states by small margins that we usually win because these white voters were excluded by the party; they were overlooked and taken for granted. We need messaging that will bring them back. It's also foolish and lazy to assume they'll turn on Trump and vote for Democrats. .

[ProfessorPlum]

25. White voters were not excluded by the party

Stop that nonsense. Democrats fight for all people and their economic future.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Trump pulled the equivalent of a hole in one, a straight royal flush, a half court buzzer beater.

He isn't repeating that feat with a 40% approval rating and a recession.

[Gman]

31. White voters excluded themselves.

Because they feel they don't belong. It is complicated and involves a lot of racism and bigotry. But they exclude themselves to their own detriment. Like all the Trump supporters who will lose ACA coverage.

[Akamai]

26. Every voter should be given reasons why they should vote Democratic

And why they should not vote Republican.

But there is nothing on the progressive side like right-wing hate radio, like FOX.

Progressives simply have to establish a loud counter narrative, one forceful and effective.

We have failed to do that for 30 years. On this we were stupid and disorganized. Time to change that.

[Gman]

30. Air America was the last best hope.

We're 30 years behind. When Bush was prez I said we were 20 years behind. So did a lot of people and Air America was born. AA was our last best hope.

Now it takes grassroots work. But we do it wrong. We send in a bunch of kids who don't even live in the area, who aren't from there, to go knock on doors and spout some talking points. When they leave people are pissed they had to go answervtge door.

There are answers. But it will take decades now.

[Akamai]

33. I think Tom Hartman, Amy Goodman, in a variety of other people are terrific. But this is not much

against the onslaught of right wing loud, loud noise which is not criticized by the mainstream press.

I sure agree with you that we have to approach people and where they can be influenced. Humanely, directly, and one on one.

I think we have to find some way of having radio broadcasts in the southern United States so they can listen to Thom Hartmann. I thought for many years the more that people listen to Thom, the more that day will vote humanely, that they will vote Democratic.

[WomenRising2017]

15. abandoning civil rights is not acceptable,

and is a horrible idea.

We had a strong economic message. If Joe Bigot is upset over gay marriage and voted based on that, he's a moron.

[Gman]

17. A moron with a vote that counts like your vote

This is not black and white that you have to give up civil rights or not. This is about reaching out and bringing them in.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

18. Exactly

I don't get why people think it's an either/or.

[WomenRising2017]

19. We can do that without abandoning civil rights.

Abandoning civil rights is not an option.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Damn straight...

I am not willing to use the civil rights of the vulnerable as barter.

[LaydeeBug]

24. My message is pretty fucking clear...and YES they did fuck

with the vote.

You're welcome.

[Gman]

29. Nate Silver disagrees

He spotted nothing statistically wrong. I'll go with him. And you're welcome.

[LaydeeBug]

36. Nate Silver predicted a Hillary win, but please proceed.

This is a debate I am *very* comfortable having:

Link to tweet

[Gman]

41. Who is this guy and why does his opinion matter?

Silver averages polls and the polls sampled wrong. Regardless Silver found no statistical anomalies that would imply the vote was hacked. I'll take what Silver says over some unknown lawyer.

[LaydeeBug]

42. you are certainly welcome to do so, as you are entitled to your own opinion.

[Caliman73]

32. You don't know or don't care.

They most certainly messed with the vote. They ALWAYS mess with the vote. They maybe did not change a ton of votes at the ballot box or completely hack the machines (though there is some concern they did do some of that). There are other ways they messed with the vote. The suppression of voters in urban areas, closing DMV's, closing voting locations, shortening early voting, Cross Check, suppressing voter turnout with false news. ALL THAT SHIT is MESSING WITH THE VOTE.

We need to be a little better about getting the message out, but when the networks are mostly owned by those who stand to gain from continued deregulation, they aren't going to give that much time to the party that wants to enforce more regulation. To argue that the election was lost because we lost touch with the "poor disenfranchised white voter" is crap. Trump voters, especially the white voters, were more educated and had more wealth. They voted because they don't like Black people and women. They will vote for the next white republican that can blame their problems on people of color.

We need to stop voter suppression and tampering of our elections by foreign and domestic adversaries.

[Bradical79]

37. We would lose more votes than we gain

We lost by an extremely tiny margin in certain states in the face of voter supression, election interference, FBI interference, and a decades long misinformation campsign against our particular candidate.

There is no reason to think catering to bigotry as you desire will net us the extra votes needed. Or do you think the people voting for us currently would all stay loyal like good little drones?

So, ignoring the disgusting abandonment of truly disadvantaged people, I seriously doubt the math would work out the way you think either.

It's just a monumentally stupid and bigoted idea to throw these vulnerable people under the bus, especially with thin margins and a multimillion voter lead in the popular vote.

[Demsrule86]

38. The haters of our Grandparent's time probably did not want to hear how people

of color deserved equality. There is no message that can reach this sort. Let them eat their bigotry...and I would remind everyone...in a perfect electoral storm for the GOP...Comey, Hillary hatred and the vicious attacks (lies) against her, Russian interference, GOP cheating, and a bitter divisive primary, we barely lost. In fact, we won the popular vote. I seriously think we will kick some GOP ass in the midterms and in 20. Fact is we can not reach out to bigots on issues that really matter to them because that would entail throwing our folks under the bus. I live in Ohio and I know that more than a few who for Trump voted their pocketbooks...many of the Rustbelt states have huge underemployment issues...where people work for shit money. Trump promised something better and even though many were skeptical, what did they have to lose? Those voters are already feeling betrayed. Trump will lose their vote in 20 for sure. Of course some voted because Trump gave voice to their hatred and belief that if they are not doing well, it is because someone else (people of color, immigrants,women etc.) stole their birthright. It is not their fault...no point in reaching out to these folks because we can't offer them what they want.

[Paladin]

10. K&R.

[GoCubsGo]

11. Kick. Rec.

[Pachamama]

12. I can't forget...

Never

[betsuni]

14. K&R

[Cha]

28. Yeah, and bots like greenwald and taibbi are still

doing it.

Mahalo, Laydee!

[LaydeeBug]

39. Truer words, Cha...truer words.

Malcolm Nance says they've started phase 2.

[Cha]

40. Kick!

[Progressive dog]

34. K&R

[NCTraveler]

35. "They tried to tell us we need to 'reach out to them' "