Sorry, Democrats. Trumps not going anywhere. You wouldnt like who would follow anyway.

[TygrBright]

From Jonathan Capehart at WaPo with Q&A for Constitutional Law expert Laurence Tribe

"“We’re in totally uncharted waters here,” Tribe told me via email. To say that he thinks Trump is illegitimately in the White House would be an understatement. “The more we learn about the apparent existence of evidence … pointing to collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia to install Trump in the Oval Office,” he said, “the harder it becomes to view Donald Trump as a legitimate occupant of the office he has claimed.”

“That said, I believe deeply in America’s Constitution and in the rule of law,” he continued. “But the same commitment to the Constitution as our highest law requires me to abide by the Constitution’s sole procedures for removing someone who has been sworn in as the president, however wrongfully.”

...

Setting aside the virtually impossible scenarios I’ve described, what lies ahead of us, if Trump fails to serve out his term, is clear: Vice President Pence, however tainted, will become the nation’s chief executive unless Pence, too, resigns or is removed from office after ascending to the presidency upon Trump’s resignation, removal or displacement — in which case the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 specifies that the Speaker of the House (Paul Ryan) would succeed to the presidency. Following Ryan in that line of succession would be the Senate’s president pro tempore (Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah), then the secretary of state (Rex Tillerson), and so on down the line of Cabinet members."

So please... be careful what you pray for.

Let's use this four years strategically, to build unity, focus on fixing the electoral system, and stay out of the mosh pit while the GOP cannibalizes itself.

sadly,
Bright

[stevenleser]

1. Best of the worst in that bunch is Hatch. I could deal with him until we could vote him out

which would certainly happen after an impeachment.

[PatSeg]

17. I was thinking the same thing

He is sane and stable. The thought of any of the possibilities in the White House is disturbing, but Trump is erratic and dangerous. If anyone could start World War III, he is at the top of the list.

[wordpix]

39. DT needs to use his great skills in deal making to

get our special election going immediately after he's indicted, impeached or resigns.

We could reduce his sentence a bit with that kind of help

[Orrex]

2. The one "who would follow" is already there.

Trump doesn't get a pass simply because everyone in the GOP is a corrupt shitbag.

If it's to be a game of whack-a-mole, so be it. Getting Trump out of the office that he stole is worth it.

[Hugin]

3. Well, the Constitution originally had the second highest vote recipient installed as VP.

I'm beginning to think that was a better idea.

[obamanut2012]

12. I agree -- some states do that for Gov & Lt Gov

[exboyfil]

4. That is my conclusion as well

Also pray for the health and willingness to serve of all (or most) of the Supreme Court justices (the four liberal, Kennedy, Roberts, and Thomas). I wouldn't mind if Alito decided to leave. I think whatever came after Kennedy and Roberts would be worse. I am sure Thomas will leave before Trump's term, but I would like for him to get overconfident and stay past 2020.

Unless things really blow up, I don't see a chance in the Senate. Even with gerrymandering the House could swing. The Democrats need at least one House of Congress before the 2020 election.

[TygrBright]

6. I think we need to concentrate on state leges and gooberships.

It's going to be critical to un-gerrymander voting districts, and repeal vote suppression laws.

Beyond critical.

If the GOP continues its spectacular self-immolation, we'll have a better chance in national elections by 2020, but between now and then we have to do the local and state work.

wearily,
Bright

[exboyfil]

9. I know I would have no chance

but I sure would like to run against my Bible grasping sanctimonious prick who is my State Representative. His younger clone almost won the State Senate a few cycles ago. He now has a position at my church (much to my annoyance).

[TygrBright]

13. If not you, someone else.

But we have to force them to use all their resources.

Not a single GOPpie should be running unopposed, for ANY office. They might still win, but we make them work for it, and spend money for it.

And in the mean time, good Democrats can be getting to know people in their districts. Listening. Showing they're not skeery commie socialist aliens. Identifying key issues to run on next time. Recruiting allies and people who will support them next time around.

It can be done, just not overnight.

The GOP has been working on this since 1974. I know, I was around back then and saw them at it.

steadfastly,
Bright

[wordpix]

41. "unless things really blow up"--Sen. Blumenthal today said "constitutnl crisis looming"

that could end up on SCOTUS desktop. This on CSPAN at Gorsuch hearing - Sen. Judiciary Comm.

[CrispyQ]

5. I've tried to remain hopeful,

but this morning I woke up feeling that we are stuck with Don the Con for the term & that his SIL will run for prez in 2020 & the fix is already in.

[TygrBright]

7. I'm actually fairly optimistic about 2020 IF we can take state leges and gooberships...

...ungerrymander districts and repeal vote suppression laws.

The GOP is doing such a stellar job of revealing its own sleaze, corruption, and incompetence that they will lose a critical fraction of moderate and independent voters, and we'll have better results after 2018.

IF we don't allow them to ratfuck, split, and sucker ourselves into our own circular firing squad episodes in the mean time.

Big if, I know.

reticently,
Bright

[Calista241]

49. We will probably win in 2020, but none of that other stuff will happen by 2020.

The census starts in 2020, and that will change everything anyway.

I'm optimistic about winning the Presidency in 2020, but 2018 is going to be a stretch. Trump will be in full campaign mode, and we Dems will have a very plethora of voices drowning each other out. And the map is so horrifically bad for us. It's way worse for us in 2018 than 2016's map was for Republicans.

And Repubs have conditioned themselves to voting in off year elections.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. Every last one in the immediate succession is terrible.

The other thing that is terrible is that we probably won't even have to get to the succession issue because Pence would appoint a vice president who would also be terrible.

But I still think having Trump gone would be a better thing than letting him stick around, for several reasons: (1) Pence has government experience and some understanding of how it works. (2) He'd probably get rid of Bannon. (3) The Trump spawn would no longer be "employees" of the White House. (4) He wouldn't spend $3 million of our money every weekend to go to Florida to play golf. (5) His wife would live in the WH - she has to so she can watch who he has dinner with - so the government wouldn't have to pay for her security at another location. (6) Pence knows how to behave in public and would be less of an embarrassment internationally. (7) Pence is less likely to start WWIII because some foreign head of state offended him. (8) Pence doesn't tweet uncontrollably.

Yes, he'd be terrible, especially with respect to issues that affect minorities, women and LGBT people. But he'd be more manageably terrible, I think. The fact that he's not especially bright might be useful, too. I think he'd be like a fundie Christian version of W. That's not good, but he is probably more survivable.

[exboyfil]

10. He will be more effective in advancing his

Calvinist theistic agenda. On foreign policy he will be like George W. Bush (we saw how that turned out). In his heart of hearts he still thinks Iraq was a good idea.

At this point I am leaning towards a crippled President Trump over a laundered theocrat like Pence.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

20. I'm not so sure he would be all that effective.

He's as dumb as a bag of hammers and therefore would be more predictable and easier to outwit. Trump, in contrast, is so unpredictable that nobody knows quite what to do with him. The other thing is that if Trump goes down the whole GOP will be tainted on account of having supported him. The GOPers were able to distance themselves somewhat from Nixon after Watergate (although Ford lost the '76 election in part because of the pardon) because only Nixon's inner circle of operatives and ratfuckers were in on it. The GOPers in Congress could credibly argue that they had no idea how corrupt Nixon really was (despite his longstanding reputation for being a bit devious).

As to Trump, though, everybody knew before the election exactly what he is: racist, sexist, xenophobic, corrupt, greedy, untruthful, insulting. Despite his pussy-grabbing and his lying and tweeting and all the other terrible things about him that were out there, obvious to the world and widely deplored, the Congressional Republicans supported him. Most of them continue to do so. If Trump has to resign or is removed, Pence will not be able to just pick up the pieces and pretend nothing happened. The GOP will be in ruins and Pence will be very weak.

I would also point out that a wounded Trump is probably even more dangerous because he would be more irrational and inclined to do something stupid and destructive to deflect attention.

[mvd]

50. What do we do if Pence is heavily involved in the Russia..

scandal like Trump? Do we give him a pass to avoid Ryan? Because if Trump wasn't so mentally unstable, Ryan would be even worse than Trump. Ryan wants the poor and middle class to get no help at all.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

53. If he's involved in the Russia mess then he would be subject to the same

results as Trump. So if he has to go, the presidency goes to whoever he appointed as vice president. Only if he hadn't appointed one in time, or if the senate didn't confirm his choice, would Ryan get the job. The possible up side of that is that Ryan is already weak, and is likely to become weaker as time goes on and as Trump continues to crap all over the GOP.

[mvd]

56. That is a big worry. I would even..

hope Pence isn't heavily involved to avoid Ryan. I don't think anyone outside of the No Freedom Caucus wants to cut the safety net as much as Ryan.

[redstatebluegirl]

11. I totally agree. I hate Pence, he is a right wing nut job, but I don' t think he will get

us killed.

[TygrBright]

30. He might if he thought it would bring about the Rapture. n/t

[treestar]

16. Some good points there

And he would be hobbled by a D.congress as of 2019

[TygrBright]

28. Pence is a Millenialist. He could kick off the Rapture. n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

31. He would be very weak if he assumed the presidency

because the administration would have been grossly tainted by Trump. He wouldn't be able to rapture any damn thing because by that time he'd be pretty much a figurehead.

[ginnyinWI]

34. agree with all of your points, Velveteen.

In addition, our international reputation would begin to be restored. The fact that we recognized and removed an incompetent President will help to restore our credibility. My ex-pat daughter would no longer feel like going out in public with a paper bag over her head!

He would be like Gerald Ford. Not a lot of political clout, and not likely to create some kind of legacy.

[sweetroxie]

59. Pence, albeit awful

doesn't have an army of deplorable goons behind him. He's such a goody 2 shoes that he's not badass enough for the deplorables.

[treestar]

14. Get congress in 2018

Impeach them both. D house speaker is POTUS

[Atman]

15. Pence is at least predictable, and therefore easier to manipulate.

Trump is a child and we have no idea what he is going to do from one day to the next. That makes him far more dangerous.

[lame54]

18. Trump needs to go...

We'll deal with that other shit then

[Blue_Tires]

19. Bull-fuckin'-shit... Might be more of the same, but no way can it be worse.

So for a general recap of the anti-Dem talking points:

1. Dems are just sore losers, inventing Russian links to smokescreen running such a supposedly unlikable candidate...

2. Yes, there are some Trump links to Russia, but it's all legit; there's nothing here of significance and you're wasting time and political capital digging after fool's gold with this McCarthyist witch hunt...

3. Okay, maybe everything wasn't above board, but the wrongdoing is gray area at worst! Besides, Dems should quit talking about Russia and start focusing on stuff Americans really care about! The average Dem voter in Peoria does't even give a shit!

4. Okay, maybe there's something a bit more serious and sinister at play, but you're only making Trump a sympathetic figure by attacking him 24/7! You're practically handing him a free re-election and an even stronger GOP stranglehold on congress!

5. This whole thing is just anti-Russian hatred and hysteria! Russians are the new Muslims or black folks!

6. Regardless of how bad this looks for Trump, we need to back off lest someone even worse replace him!!

[Charles Bukowski]

29. Don't forget.

7. Stop bringing up Trump's trips to Mar-a-Lago, his golfing, and the excessive money beimg spent protecting Melania in NYC. They're non-issues and nobody cares.

It's hilarious how many democratic posters have been repeating these points these last few weeks.

[LanternWaste]

21. I don't think "the devil you know" is an effective reason to forgo rule of law

I don't think "the devil you know" is an effective reason to forgo rule of law should the case call for such.

In fact, imagine the damage to the GOP brand should Trump recuse himself from office or even be removed.

Pence would spend a year or two doing nothing but damage control and would never posses enough capital to ensure any domestic or foreign policy gets passed without months of vetting.

[Orsino]

22. I don't want to like whoever follows.

But I would like to see them tainted by Trump's impeachment.

[tibbiit]

23. My prediction

If Twump is able to hold on to the job even by his fingernails until campaign time starts for 2020 then he will bow out of the running claiming a successful 4 year run! He will claim to have done all he set out to do and can pass the baton onto the younger generation. He can be seen as an advisor to his beloved!

They are grooming Jared and Ivanka right now to be slipped in his place should he be able to hold on. Jared or Ivanka (or both-tag team) will be the repub nominee for 2020 and deplorable's will be ecstatic!

This is so obvious to me as a strategy. Jared right now is single handed in solving Israel, and Iraq... as well as the economy, China and Jobs!

tib

[MFM008]

24. Any republican is BAD

but Donald j. Maggot is a special brand of CRAZY.

[geek tragedy]

25. Pence is abhorrent but Trump is a threat to the entire planet and the concept of democracy. nt

[Gidney N Cloyd]

26. If both Pence or Trump go there's the opportunity to install a new VP.

I think the congress would take the opportunity to put in someone with a known name and a less controversial reputation, a 'next in line' type (ala GOP tradition) who may no longer have serious presidential aspirations.
Say hello to President McCain.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

27. I agree, unfortunately

My biggest worry would not necessarily who would follow but, at this early stage, whoever replaces him would (likely) be whitewashed by the media and difficult to criticize, which would make replacing whoever more difficult in 2020. Plus, they might actually be more effective in terms of rallying Congressional Republicans to enact the same agenda that Trump wants to enact but doesn't have the foggiest idea how to go about whipping up support for. I'd rather have four years of an ineffective Trump (even less if we can win back the Senate or the House or at least increase our margins) than nearly four years of a more effective Pence, Ryan, Hatch, et. al. We definitely need to figure out a way to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again though (I think that this is a fairly unique kind of situation, however).

[DefenseLawyer]

32. Capehart...

There's a fine journalist.

[Paladin]

33. I guess WWIII has to break out with N. Korea, to persuade some of you.

However obnoxiously right-wing Pence, Ryan, et al obviously are, they are experienced, reality-based, relatively sane politicians, which makes them infinitely preferable to the drooling baby man who periodically occupies the White House, these days. If ever there was a candidate worthy of impeachment, trump is it. How much further does this country have to fall, before appropriate action is taken?

[wordpix]

37. I don't buy that a Russian-led international oligarchy cabal can likewise choose Pence

just like Dump. If Dump's presidency is illegitimate, as many believe it is, then so is Pence as next in line.

That should be our position. We then negotiate Pence as interim until special election is held soon after Dump is carted off

[kcr]

35. Nonsense

The But Pence! Argument is merely an attempt to normalize Trump. Don't fall for it. We don't have to be careful what we wish for. We're anti-Trump and we're clear on what we want. Anyone not clear on that can get out of the way.

[TygrBright]

40. I am not "attempting to normalize Trump" just because Pence scares me even more.

It's possible, you know, that good Democrats can have perfectly legitimate reasons for feeling that way.

Pence is a Millenialist and it would take very little for him to promote war, even nuclear war, in the Middle East because that is what "must happen" for the Rapture to occur, in the creepy Millenialist theology.

That's not "normalizing" Trump who canNOT be "normalized" in any case because he keeps doing crazier and more bizarre things every day.

Have we EVER had a sitting President write a check from the Resolute Desk for $25 Million to pay off people he defrauded? How can you "normalize" that?

NOT accusing people of "normalizing Trump" as though they are stupid or malign in intent will help keep Democrats from forming solid blocks of distrust against each other.

It's perfectly possible to hate Trump and what he's doing to America viscerally, strongly, with all possible intensity and all possible energy to oppose the damage he is doing, and STILL believe there are people behind him who can do even WORSE damage.

You're free to believe that the sack of greedy rabid insane weasels he's brought with him is a lesser evil, and I'm free to disagree with that, and we can STILL both agree that Trump is an unmitigated horror who will do appalling damage.

But let's try not to be dismissive of those we disagree with.

You may be correct that Pence wouldn't encourage nuclear war on Israel's behalf and attempt a "Handmaid's Tale" style coup here in North America with the help of his terrorist fundie base.

I might be wrong. I don't think I am, but I'm not dismissing your valid and differing POV or calling it "nonsense" or accusing you of collaborating (out of stupidity or malice) with those trying to bring about the Millenialist apocalypse.

steadily,
Bright

[kcr]

42. I'll repeat my point. It's an argument we shouldn't fall for. I'm sorry you're so scared.

But it's normalizing Trump by comparing him to Pence. Have we ever had a sitting president do the things Trump has? That's exactly my point and why sitting on our asses and doing nothing because Pence might be the result makes no sense.

[TygrBright]

43. That was my point, too. Telling me I'm "falling for" an argument I disagree with...

...is a very good example of why Democrats have a hard time finding common ground even when we agree more than we disagree.

I'm fully alive to how "NOT NORMAL" Trump is, and I point out his illegitimacy, craziness, and the destruction he is wreaking at every opportunity.

But I'd rather not "normalize" a conscienceless sleazy Millenialist wackjob like Pence, either.

Or any of the other slime mold in Trump's sticky trail.

So how about we agree to not accuse each other of "normalizing" ANY of them?

patiently,
Bright

[kcr]

47. The problem with your position is it leaves Trump in power

Actively making the choice to do nothing about a president that takes those actions. That's what you'd have the country do? Ok, so you're not "falling for anything." For some reason that just frosts your buns, so I won't word it that way anymore. Guess what? You're still on the side of effectively giving tacit approval and normalization to these very awful things, so you're still wrong. I will then just say it's very misguided. Your extreme distaste and fear of Pence, which I very much share BTW, is not a reason to let Trump get away with it.

[wordpix]

36. A House/Senate majority in 2018 would stop this madness

[Bradical79]

38. LOL, no.

Mentally unstable Russian asset as chief executive is pretty much worst case scenario. And if we intentionally leave such a person in the White House, we might as well give up on this country right now.

Not bringing to justice someone who worked with a foreign power to undermine our electoral system while also benifiting from a large voter suppression effort could be the death of democracy in the U.S.

[sprinkleeninow]

54. Agreed. eom

[JCanete]

44. If he is impeachable, and has committed a crime, there is nothing that justifies us not

respecting the rule of law, and the office itself, by actually following through with the process of removing this man from office, and possibly prosecuting those crimes. To allow such a stain on the American system of Government to persist in the face of criminality would be the kind of normalization of corruption in the light of day, that we simply cannot accept with the expectation that it won't weaken our democracy.

Duty aside, I'm not sure keeping Trump here is any smarter politically anyway. If he and his horrible approval rating did provably impeachable things, then we force the GOP to either rile Trump's base by disavowing him, or we tie their enablement around their necks for the more sane public to see, until they look absurd and as corrupt as they actually are. If Pence distances himself from Trump early, he angers the base. If he doesn't, he gets more and more tainted. Same for Ryan. The worse they present, the harder it will be for the media to sweep it all under the rug, to then go about focusing on Democratic "obstructionism."

[YoungDemCA]

45. I absolutely want Trump and his administration's agenda defeated.

I also absolutely want the Republican Party as a whole to be defeated.

Not sure how the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

46. If we don't get rid of him

I at least want him neutered politically so he does the minimal amount of harm.

[lunasun]

48. I don't see trump going anywhere. I do see resistance growing but still uncountable

about 2018. its all bad . We need a new speaker

[Warren DeMontague]

51. If Trump is impeached or resigns, for one, Pence may very well be implicated in it, too.

Also, if Pence is not, he enters the WH severely damaged by the circumstances of his attaining the office.

I will agree 100% that President Pence as a far right Christian wack-a-doo is hardly a desirable outcome.. the man thinks Gay people should be "cured" with electroshock therapy, for fuck's sake.

But in terms of careful what you wish for, actually after Pence comes Ryan, who arguably could be a stronger GOP candidate down the road in 2020.

The bottom line here is that the Trump Admin may be - big may - in the process of imploding and it may not matter one whit what we feel, say or do about it. If there's un-ignorable, un-concealable evidence of the sorts of things that have been alleged, I don't see how he finishes his term.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

52. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. There are no good outcomes either way.

Although I think Trump could easily cause WWIII and did cheat his way in. I think we would be doing the Reps a favor by ridding them of Trump.

[Thomas Hurt]

55. Sorry Republicans

but having your boy screw himself and the GOP over will only help the Dems in the long run.

We start with Trump and end in 2020 with Pence..........chances are there will be no 2nd Pence admin or any GOP admin in 2020, and there will be shift in Congress maybe in State Houses.

If Donnie and Ryan can stay on schedule with their winningest losing ways, the Dems might take a bite out of GOP majorities in Congress.

[standingtall]

57. I don't care if the line of succession is just as bad or worse.

Trump and all his cronies involved in the theft of the 2016 election must be brought to justice. We let him stay more damage will be done in the long run.

[Tribalceltic]

58. Never

Any Discussion of Trump remaining as the so called president must be eliminated. The line of succession at this point does not thrill me either. We with our strength in removing Trump can make each of these much less powerful and begin removing them also. Each will be in a much weaker position than the one before.
The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.... not taking that first step dooms us to having "so called president" Trump and his cronies taking over our country.

This election was illegitimate not only for the presidential race but for all races in which the GOP was involved from Senate and Congress down to the local dog catcher. Each and every member of the Republican party and their supporters are complicit and guilty of conspiracy to commit election fraud.

[Wiseman32218]

60. Exactly, Pence or Ryan are scarier

Last edited Mon Apr 3, 2017, 09:06 PM - Edit history (1)