Presidential Line of Succession

[pnwmom]

Just so no one gets their hopes too high.

Current officer
1 Vice President Mike Pence (R)
2 Speaker of the House of Representatives Paul Ryan (R)
3 President pro tempore of the Senate Orrin Hatch (R)
4 Secretary of State Rex Tillerson (R)
5 Secretary of the Treasury Steven Mnuchin (R)

ETC.

[erinlough]

1. I'll take Orrin Hatch for 200 Alex.

[pnwmom]

2. I hope at 83 his health is okay. nt

[Buzz cook]

3. Take back the house and senate

Get Al Gore elected to congress, elect him to the speakership. Impeach trump and Pence.

Reset to 2000.

[dchill]

4. Where do we start?

[roamer65]

5. Oh yeah!

[pnwmom]

19. So we should wait to impeach him till January 2019, with a Democratic Congress.

[Demsrule86]

23. No, he needs to go as soon it is obvious he colluded with the Russians.

[onenote]

38. not a question of waiting. not going to happen when there is a repub majority

In fact, even if we take the House and Senate in 2018, there's no scenario where we have enough votes to convict in the Senate without substantial repub support. And if there is substantial repub support, a deal whereby Trump resigns will get worked out and either Pence will stay on as President, or if Pence resigns, Ryan will become President.

[MichMary]

31. Trump and Pence will not be simultaneously impeached.

Won't happen.

If Trump goes first, Pence becomes POTUS and appoints a new VP. If Pence goes first Trump appoints a new VP.

[Buzz cook]

49. If you remember the appointment of Ford and Rockefeller

Was not instantaneous. Over a month in Ford's case between nomination and approval.

[KittyWampus]

6. Irrelevant. There is ZERO possibility of Pence and Trump being removed simultaneously.

[NurseJackie]

25. Pence will choose Cruz for VP as a "booby-trap" or "dead-man-switch" to discourage ...

... others from impeaching and removing him from office.

[PJMcK]

28. Doesn't a nominated VP require Congressional approval? (n/t)

[NurseJackie]

30. I found this...

I'll bet there are other more comprehensive and authoritative sources online... but this was just a quickie Google search, and this popped up:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2001/03/how_is_a_new_vice_president_chosen.html

Before the 25th Amendment, a vacancy in the office was simply left unfilled. The impetus for the 25th was the assassination of John F. Kennedy--with Lyndon Johnson's ascension to the presidency, there was no vice president in place in case something befell Johnson. Then-Rep. Gerald Ford was appointed under the 25th following the resignation of Vice President Spiro Agnew in 1973. In 1974, after Richard Nixon resigned, Ford became president and selected Nelson Rockefeller as vice president. After a long congressional inquiry, Rockefeller was approved, making them the country's first nonelected president and vice president.

It's incomplete info because it doesn't specifically indicate that Ford needed congressional approval, but we can infer that he likely did have congressional approval because his own choice of Rockefeller needed congressional approval.

This snippet really isn't enough for the foundation of a detailed discussion, but it's enough for me to know what's likely to happen after Trump's impeachment or resignation. I hope it was interesting to you too.

[PJMcK]

36. The 25th Amendment

Thanks for your follow-up NurseJackie. I needed another cup of coffee to do my own research so I appreciate your help!

When FDR died and Harry Truman became president, he did not have a VP for the balance of FDR's 4th term. There wasn't a Constitutional process to replace the VP. When Mr. Truman ran for election in 1948, Alben W. Barkley was his running mate and became VP when President Truman scored his famous upset election.

The next time in our nation's history that we had a vacancy was when JFK was assassinated in November 1963, (I'll never forget those horrible four days). As there was still no mechanism for replacing the VP, and there was less than a year until the next national elections, LBJ had no VP as he finished JFK's term. When he won election in 1974, Hubert H. Humphrey was his VP. Then the 25th Amendment was adopted on February 10, 1967. The Wikipedia article is informative:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

To our specific conversation, Section 2 of the 25th Amendment addresses a Vice Presidential vacancy. From Wikipedia:

Under Section 2, whenever there is a vacancy in the office of Vice President, the President nominates a successor who becomes Vice President if confirmed by a majority vote of both Houses of the Congress.

Currently, the 25th Amendment is being discussed as Section 4 of the Amendment outlines the process for removing the President for various reasons.

In any event, now I need a third cup of coffee! Enjoy your weekend!

[NurseJackie]

41. Thanks for the info.

(I'll never forget either.)

[csziggy]

43. Gerald Ford did have to get congressional approval

An Unexpected Presidency

The unusual chain of events that lifted Ford to the Oval Office began in 1972 when operatives connected to President Richard Nixon’s (1913-1994) re-election campaign broke into the Democratic National Committee headquarters at the Watergate Hotel in Washington, D.C. A number of high-ranking Nixon administration officials knew about the break-in, and the president himself took part in efforts to cover up the illegal activities that became known as the Watergate scandal.

As the scandal came to light, Vice President Spiro T. Agnew (1918-1996) resigned from office in October 1973 over unrelated charges of accepting bribes and evading taxes. Nixon used his power under the 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution to appoint Ford as his new vice president. The well-liked and respected Ford was easily confirmed by Congress and took office on December 6, 1973.
http://www.history.com/topics/us-presidents/gerald-r-ford

[pbmus]

7. Not if all of them are complicit...

[Elwood P Dowd]

8. Never thought I would ever say Orrin Hatch was the most sane

of any bunch of Washington repukes.

[L. Coyote]

9. How to select the next VP should be included in that discussion.

[PJMcK]

37. It's in the 25th Amendment (n/t)

[defacto7]

10. That succession list

is only if all of the previous in line die at the same time. Even being legally removed doesn't work because it can't happen at the same moment.

[pnwmom]

12. They might not give either DT or Pence time to appoint a new VP.

Nobody knows what could happen, but I could imagine them and Paul Ryan all being charged at the same time. (DT as an unindicted co-conspirator).

[defacto7]

48. "Nobody knows what could happen"

You sure have that right. I feel like I'm fishing for an angle most of the time just so I have something to hold on to.

[LibraLiz1973]

11. I still say when Trump goes

He's taking Pence and Ryan with him.

Remember- there's NO ONE on earth who is more petty than Donald Trump.
He won't go with a whimper.
He'll tear this mother down.

[sarah FAILIN]

34. Truer words have not been spoken

He is a childish and petty man. The whole house of cards will come down.

[Whiskeytide]

42. I suspect deals will be struck.

The succession will be staged, and pardons will follow.

[mzteaze]

13. Well...

This makes me wonder, why the Dump gone, will his cabinet picks like Tillerson actually stay?

Under a "real" president, I don't see Tillerson, Mnuchin, Carson and that loony lady over at Education sticking around even with Pence.

[ecstatic]

14. If tRumP was elected through collusion with Russia, that should completely

void the election. I know our constitution doesn't specifically address this scenario, but any other result will mark the end of this democracy. The people would not stand for Pence & Ryan benefiting and using Trump's treason as a launch pad to set the country back decades.

I can deal with being set back 50 years if they win fair and square, but I will not see the erosion of my rights, my neighbors rights, and the environment due to laws passed by an illegally installed regime.

[L. Coyote]

45. If the gravity justifies it, election nullification will happen.

Remember how accepting the USA was of the Supreme court appointing Bush in effect. This will be easier once the evidence comes out.

[OliverQ]

15. General Mattis would be 5th in line

Defense Sec comes after State in line of succession.

[pnwmom]

18. According to Wikipedia he's #6.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession

[OliverQ]

47. Interesting, thought Mattis was next

Weird that Treasury is before Defense.

[Liberty Belle]

16. You left out General Matthis, who is 4th or 5th, saner than most on this list.

[pnwmom]

17. I didn't leave him out -- I just stopped at #5. He's # 6.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession

[Sancho]

20. Which one of these was Gerald Ford?

If Pense resigned a VP could be appointed and then Trump resigns leaving none of those in succession as POTUS and VP...it has happened.

Not arguing why they would do that, but there are scenarios that could play out...just saying.

[pnwmom]

21. He was VP. If DT and/or Pence resigned and was replaced, I wouldn't expect

the replacement to be any better than this motley crew.

[Sancho]

22. Exactly, he was named when Agnew resigned. If facing jail (both Trump and Pence)....

Pence could be pardoned and be replaced by Hillary (or Biden, etc.), then Trump resigns; in return both are pardoned.

Otherwise, both are prosecuted. If the only way to avoid a criminal trial was to play ball with the Democrats who agree to the deal.

Lots of hypotheticals, but technically possible.

[unblock]

29. the senate would have to confirm the new veep in case of a vacancy.

so even in the very improbable scenario where donnie and pence agree in order to save their own hides, the senate would never agree. any republican senator who even appears to cooperate in making hillary president would be easily primaried.

[Vinca]

24. Now that's one scary list.

[SticksnStones]

26. I wonder if Jared and Ivanka think they get to stay

after 45 resigns/is removed/has an untimely heart attack...

[ExciteBike66]

27. True we should not get our hopes up

but at least whoever takes over would be viewed as even less legitimate than the current officeholder...

edited for spelling

[Mc Mike]

32. A veritable smorgasboard of MAGA,

er, I mean MAGgots.

[Johnny2X2X]

33. Paul Ryan will take over

Pence is almost as deep in this Russia stuff as Trump himself.

If Trump and Pence are both removed, whomever takes over is going to be so weak that they will be little more than a spokesperson for the office of the Presidency.

Trump's impeachment will destroy the Republican Party for a generation. Their agenda will be dead, their leaders disgraced.

[NightWatcher]

35. Pence will pick a VP, then his new VP will pick one when Pence goes...

Who will Pence pick that will survive the hearings?

[Vinca]

40. Paul Ryan.

[lillypaddle]

39. Geez

What a pathetic and scary lineup.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

44. The Line of Succession is moot and invalid, in my opinion.

Consider:

If the election itself is illegitimate, then it follows that, the Line of Succession is illegitimate. Even if Pence and everyone on down the line are innocent, the Line of Succession is illegitimate, regardless of the legal status of anyone in the line. This is unchartered territory, and there is nothing in the Constitution, that I can quickly recall, perhaps I'm wrong, that provides guidance for a foreign state basically picking our President over the will of the People. Since there is no Constitutional Remedy, we really have no quick fix for this. I don't claim to have answers. I would propose several solutions:

1) The Presidency goes to the runner-up and winner of the popular vote.

2) Hold new special elections.

3) Congress creates a select bipartisan committee to choose the President.

4) Hold another Electoral College vote in states where the winner won by less than a certain percentage - say, 3% or less (or a percentage to be determined)

That's all I can think of now ... I think I'll start a thread on it, and people can come up with ideas to add to the thread.

Provide your idea for solutions here.

[JTFrog]

46. The only one I see not caught up in the scandal is Hatch.

I know it's too much to ask for a special election, but I think we need to demand a new election.

Marching in the streets seems to be working pretty good.