Pope Francis: Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terrorism "do not exist."

[pnwmom]

http://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2017/02/17/pope-francis-activists-stand-migrants-do-not-deny-climate-science-there

“Do not classify others in order to see who is a neighbor and who is not,” he wrote. “You can become neighbor to whomever you meet in need, and you will do so if you have compassion in your heart.”

Francis also repeated his warning against describing terrorism as Islamic, another major theme of Mr. Trump’s campaign.

“Christian terrorism does not exist, Jewish terrorism does not exist, and Muslim terrorism does not exist. They do not exist,” Francis wrote.

“There are fundamentalist and violent individuals in all peoples and religions—and with intolerant generalizations they become stronger because they feed on hate and xenophobia,” he continued.

[Willie Pep]

1. This should make right-wing Catholics angry.

Reading the comments on Catholic websites depresses the heck out of me because it seems like so many of my fellow Catholics think that the current pope is a communist or a false pope or the antichrist. This from the same people who question the orthodoxy of other Catholics for voting for the Democrats. Who are the cafeteria Catholics now?

[pnwmom]

3. Yup -- they rightwing have ALWAYS been cafeteria Catholics.

They're just been unmasked now.

[MountCleaners]

5. I'll bet they don't even read the Bible

Jesus would have said the same thing.

[mobeau69]

13. Catholics aren't real big on the Bible

which is not a bad thing.

[BarackTheVote]

21. Untrue stereotype n/t

[pnwmom]

23. They are "big" on the message of the bible, but they don't take it literally

and they don't think Genesis is a science text.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

11. The Right Wing are cafeteria conservatives. Witness Milo Yanniopolous' invite to speak at CPAC.

Not just speak, but be given the headline keynote address on Saturday.

[trotsky]

16. Liberal Catholics are as well.

Using birth control, being pro-choice, wanting women to have a greater role in the church, supporting LGBTQI rights, etc.

[pnwmom]

24. Liberal Catholics are constantly accused of that by righwingers

who fail to recognize that they also put much more weight on some doctrine than others.

[trotsky]

36. My point is that both liberal AND conservative Catholics are "Cafeteria Catholics."

Do you dispute this?

[pnwmom]

38. No, I'd already made that point. But the only people who think it matters

are the right wingers who want to impose their beliefs on all Catholics. Liberals are well aware that there is a diversity of opinion in the very large Church. Conservatives want to pretend that their beliefs are the only correct ones.

[trotsky]

39. Pardon my confusion, then.

Since you only said that conservatives "accuse" liberals of being such, it was not clear to me you fully accepted that you too are a "Cafeteria Catholic."

[pnwmom]

40. They "accuse" because they think it is an insult. Liberal Catholics realize

that it is meant as an insult but they're quite aware of the hypocrisy coming from the other side, who are no more likely to adhere to the entire Catholic doctrine than they are.

Pope Francis is throwing their hypocrisy into relief because he is reminding us all of basic Church doctrines -- concern for the poor, for refugees, for the environment, etc., that they want to ignore.

[Hortensis]

53. Yes. What a fine leader Francis is. Your post made me

smile and feel better because of his profoundly moral and decent message, Pnwmom. Thanks. .

[Docreed2003]

47. Exactly...thank you for pointing that out!

[Caliman73]

41. To be completely honest...

All Catholics are cafeteria Catholics. I should know, I grew up Catholic attended Catholic school from second grade through high school, hell, I even had my children baptized because of the pressure from family and tradition. I do not practice the traditions anymore, which really irritates my parents, but I do understand one thing... It is fairly impossible to adapt every attitude and behavior that a Catholic is supposed to espouse.

We all choose somethings that are, "not as important" like going to mass EVERY Sunday and holy day of obligation, or not eating meat on Fridays during Lent, or confession regularly, or no artificial contraception, etc...

I do totally understand your point about conservative Catholics though. They have eschewed all of the teachings against greed, and the call to active social justice and the defense of the poor and vulnerable. These are MAJOR ideas within the traditions of the Church, but honestly, a good number of Popes have paid only lip service to them as well. Pope Francis is actually trying to fulfill what his namesake Francis of Assisi taught, which is that acts of giving to the poor and vulnerable are what we are called to do. Conservatives have always liked the whole judging thing, which is also something that people are told expressly, not to do.

[pnwmom]

48. Of course. But only the right wingers deny that. n/t

[Orrex]

2. When will Trump announce his plan to invade The Vatican?

[rpannier]

6. Wait until the new banned list comes out

The Vatican will probably be on it

[msanthrope]

7. Bannon spoke at the Vatican in 2014.

I'm not so sure they are enemies.

[Orrex]

9. Yeah, that's fucked up.

Hard to keep track of all the swirling bullshit.

[shrike]

18. Oh. they're enemies

Bannon just met with anti-Francis factions within the church, of which there are more than a few.

[msanthrope]

20. Internecine fighting aside, get back to me when Francis changes a whit of dogma.

Yes, he talks a nicer line. But none of it matters until the dogma changes.

[shrike]

22. Francis was brought on primarily to clean up the Vatican bank

And clean house in the church: he recently suggested that the church be decentralized (a good idea, IMO), and power dispersed from the Vatican. One thing that must be kept in mind is that the RCC is largely a third world church. It exists within some very conservative cultures and changing anything too quickly would cause chaos.

I won't dispute your opinion; you feel how you feel. OTOH, Larry Flynt is not my favorite person, but when he spoke out against Bush I said, Welcome to the party. We need all the help we can get.

[ismnotwasm]

28. My oldest daughter frequently reminds me that Pope Francis is NOT a "liberal" pope

She is active in the church. He seeks to restore the church to "Christian" basic message, love, compassion, tolerance, charity, selflessness. This doesn't extend to Gay rights or reproductive rights--although they are all "hate the sin, love the sinner" which is better than nothing I guess.

I like his stance on a number of issues, and I'm glad he is the pope in this day and age, but I don't forget who is is, either

[shrike]

50. The Guardian defines him as a "small c" conservative

They had a very positive article on him recently. And the Guardian is not known for fawning on the RCC.

[FSogol]

19. He spoke to an extreme conservative group in the vacatian that wants to oust Pope Francis.

NPR had a story on it last week.

[pnwmom]

25. And he is aligning himself with the ultra-right Bishops who oppose Pope Francis. n/t

[democratisphere]

4. Pope Francis forgot to mention republiCON terrorism which not only threatens the US

but also the rest of the world.

[barbtries]

8. that last sentence.

it's fundamentalism that fosters terrorism. even trump fundamentalists, NRA fundamentalists. those are religions unto themselves.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. We should speak of Fundamentalist Terrorism.

Oklahoma City and 9/11 were both Fundamentalist Terrorism.

[rpannier]

14. Reading posts by some of Hair Douchengropers followers

They make some of the followers of Pat and Jerry Jr sound moderate

[LAS14]

12. K & R!

[world wide wally]

15. Imagine being so hopelessly messed up that your spiritual leader is Donald Trump.

I think that should qualify as insane

[trotsky]

17. So terrorists are all non-believers then?

Nice.

[pnwmom]

27. Twisted logic, based on your mis-equating

the words "terrorist" and "terrorism."

Pope Francis was denying Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terrorism; not the existence of individual terrorists who claim various beliefs.

[Eliot Rosewater]

26. Vast majority of people who claim to be religious who are christian, are not.

Muslims, Jewish folks? The ones who claim to be religious, most of them ARE.

Christians? Nah, vast majority VAST majority are full of shit. They profess the teachings of Jesus and not for one second of their lives do they live them.

[linuxman]

43. What is this based on, exactly?

What criteria determine whether or not someone is a Muslim?

What about Christians?

Solid examples of qualifiers and disqualifiers for each would be appreciated.

[Eliot Rosewater]

45. Simple, most christians violate Jesus command daily

Most Muslims dont violate Mohammed's nearly as often or at all

Self evident from years of observation...

[linuxman]

49. As do most Muslims, depending on how you read the Quaran

Depending on which parts of the Quaran you like best and find most valid, you can make a pretty arbitrary judgement about who is and who isn't a religious Muslim/doing what they supposed to. What are we even talking about here? Are you including only the New testament? The old as well? What about the hadiths? All? None? Some? What's the standard? My MIL is one of the most Devout Muslims I know, but depending on who you talk to elsewhere, she's no better than the worst apostate.

As a Muslim of admittedly poor piety by most standards, who sees and deals with more Muslims in an Islamic republic on a daily basis than most Americans will in a decade, I think you're wrong here. I've yet to meet a Muslim who goes without breaching some tenant of the faith on a daily basis, either willfully or unknowingly. In my experiences, most Muslims (even foreign, non-westernized ones) seem to have as difficult a time adhering to the Quaran as most Christians seem to when dealing with the Bible. My experiences with Jews are near non-existent, so I really can't comment on their practices. I'd be shocked if they're much different.

People are imperfect the world over. Shocker. I'm not about to try and quantify how well Christians Christian vs how well Muslims Muslim, especially when there's not even a consensus about what's valid between either group's scholars.

[Act_of_Reparation]

54. 'Self evident from years of observation'

[Act_of_Reparation]

29. Bullshit.

I can appreciate that he's sticking up for refugees and speaking out against our absurd immigration policies, but I'm sorry: religious extremism is religious extremism.

[RowdieTurtle]

52. All religion is extreme

Religion is by definition extreme. You cant be half in. Its about belief and you cant half believe. Believing in a virgin birth is extreme. Believing in miracles and divine intervention in this day and age is extreme. Think of all the wars fought, all the lives sacrificed and tell me its not. When you go against logic and rationality you must be extreme in your beliefs.

[ymetca]

30. Isn't it just the opposite?

All three forms of terrorism DO exist, along with many other forms of group-identified terrorism. It's implied in the term "terrorism" itself that some form of organized instigator is involved.

Hierarchical systems of human behavior control are always trying to distance themselves from the horrors that their "flocks" create.

As soon as His Holiness liquidates all the assets of the Church and instructs all the priests and nuns of the institution to walk the streets in humility, advocating for the homeless, the poor, the starving, then, and only then, will I start taking his edicts seriously.

As soon as you build a temple to your God, well... Elvis has left the building!

[pnwmom]

31. No. You're equating the words "terrorism" and "terrorist."

He's not disputing that individual terrorists exist, who happen to have various beliefs.

He's saying that the fact that an individual who claims Christian beliefs might be a terrorist doesn't mean there is such a thing as "Christian terrorism."

[ymetca]

33. In the beginning was the Word

and the Word was with God...

So the Word precedes God, does it not?

Such sophistry as suggesting that the terrorist is not terrorism evidences a true idolatry of words.

[Doreen]

32. The Catholic church has actually been out protesting for baisically

everything that has been put out there by the dictator. They actually are against planned parenthood being shut for the reason that it provides health care. Yes they are against abortion but most of them see that Planned Parenthood provides more health care and abortion is a very small part of it. They have been protesting even for the rights of gay people on the simple grounds that these are human beings being set up to be abused. A catholic nun got cuffed and arrested in Berkeley along with a very large group of Catholics.

[pnwmom]

34. Not the Catholic Church. Individual rightwing Catholics, who don't represent

the whole Church anymore than individuals on the left.

[Doreen]

35. The larger body of the Catholic church is against Trump.

Yes, there are still Catholics who love Trump's ideas but they are a smaller amount. I doubt the small town Catholics where I live would be the ones who dislike Trump as I am in a Red county.

[trotsky]

42. Not really.

A majority of American Catholics voted for Trump.

https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2016/11/09/trump-wins-catholic-vote-election-awoke-religious-feeling/

[Doreen]

44. Someone I know works for the Catholic church and has been involved with these protests and is

one of the people they have set these protests up. The Catholics in bigger cities are the ones who tend to be against Trumps agenda. The Catholics all over the world have been having meetings to fight Trumps agenda. The Catholics in Mexico are really fighting him.

[trotsky]

46. I'm not disputing any of that.

But the fact is, a majority of American Catholics voted for Trump. White Catholics overwhelmingly voted for him.

[RowdieTurtle]

51. "But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that: scandal."

Pope Francis is the man. Here hes talking about greed and power. Being a Christian is about more than believing in Jesus or talking the talk. You have to also walk the walk.

"But what is scandal? Scandal is saying one thing and doing another."
In the Catholic Church, causing scandal also a grave offense.

Examples of such sins abound, the Pope said, from money launderers to business owners who take beach vacations while stiffing their employees.

Drawing on that passage, the Catholic Catechism says scandals include business leaders who encourage fraud, teachers who agitate students and manipulators who turn people away from moral values.
In other words, anyone who leads others to do wrong, directly or indirectly, is responsible for the evil he has encouraged, the church says. So when Francis compares hypocritical Christians to atheists, he's not being flip; he's trying to protect his flock.

The Pope suggested the latter, in characteristically blunt language.
He imagined a wealthy Christian knocking at the gates of heaven and saying, "Here I am, Lord! ... I went to Church, I was close to you, I belong to this association, I did this... Don't you remember all the offerings I made?"
To which Jesus may reply, according to the Pope:
"Yes, I remember. The offerings, I remember them: All dirty. All stolen from the poor. I don't know you.' That will be Jesus' response to these scandalous people who live a double life."

"To be a Christian means to do: to do the will of God -- and on the last day -- because all of us we will have one -- that day what shall the Lord ask us? Will He say: 'What you have said about me?' No. He shall ask us about the things we did."