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NNN0LHI

(67,190 posts)
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 11:22 AM Jun 2012

Lets hope for the best for the Egyptian people

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/whos-afraid-of-the-muslim-brotherhood/article622082/

Doug Saunders

Who's afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood?
DOUG SAUNDERS

The Globe and Mail

Published Saturday, Feb. 05 2011, 5:00 AM EST

Last updated Saturday, Feb. 05 2011, 11:50 PM EST

It was not until the fourth day of Egypt's mass protests, long after the then-peaceful crowds had swelled into the hundreds of thousands, that the Brothers marched into Cairo's Tahrir Square. They kept to themselves, taking over an otherwise empty corner. You could distinguish them, those in the square told me, by their propensity toward beards and head scarves, and by their chants of " Allahu Akbar."

Here was the physical manifestation of the threat we'd been warned about for decades by defenders of Arab authoritarianism, the mother of all Islamic fundamentalist parties literally "stepping in to fill the vacuum" as a Western-supported dictatorship crumbled.

The Muslim Brotherhood, surprisingly sluggish and inarticulate, had finally moved, and here they were. Not exactly a formidable bunch, but soon that vacuum in the pavement would become a vacuum in the presidential palace, wouldn't it?

Or so we were told. The threat of the long-outlawed Brotherhood, the great-grandfather of every jihadist and Islamic fundamentalist movement in the Middle East, is the key reason why the United States and most European countries have continued to support Hosni Mubarak and his kind for decades. It's the reason, according to Prime Minister Stephen Harper's spokesman, why Canada rather shockingly continued to support Mr. Mubarak this week. Mr. Mubarak himself continues to warn that, after his demise, a deluge of Islamist "chaos" will follow, somehow worse than the chaos he'd unleashed.

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Lets hope for the best for the Egyptian people (Original Post) NNN0LHI Jun 2012 OP
What did people expect? Egypt is a Muslim country. MineralMan Jun 2012 #1
To be accurate this wasn't an election. It was a runoff for an election that occurred months ago NNN0LHI Jun 2012 #2
A runoff election is still an election. MineralMan Jun 2012 #4
You do know there's electoral formats other than the one the US uses, right? Posteritatis Jun 2012 #26
Allahu Akbar is a pretty much standard Muslim greeting or farewell expression. dipsydoodle Jun 2012 #3
Yup. Why do so many think it's some sort of battle cry? MineralMan Jun 2012 #6
I'm not crazy about it, but this is no surprise. cynatnite Jun 2012 #5
By systematically dismantling the only secular alternative - Arab socialism - this is what we get: leveymg Jun 2012 #7
Those regimes were "socialist" in name only. Odin2005 Jun 2012 #10
Jeez, you take that to be "praise so much?" leveymg Jun 2012 #11
Sorry, "praise" was probably an unfair word to use. Odin2005 Jun 2012 #17
With enough petrodollars to burn, any system can work for a while. Backwards or forwards. leveymg Jun 2012 #20
I've come to believe a MB in a position of power is actually the best hope for Egypt. Robb Jun 2012 #8
That is pretty much what the author of this article thinks too NNN0LHI Jun 2012 #9
Yep. The young more liberal people are not going to keep quiet. tabatha Jun 2012 #12
Better yet. Let's leave their future up to the Egyption people. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2012 #13
One is not mutually exclusive of the other NNN0LHI Jun 2012 #14
We're still "helping" them by supporting the junta. EFerrari Jun 2012 #18
Yep. Under the guise of "Protecting our vital national interests". Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2012 #19
The MB has repeatedly shown its willingness to negotiate EFerrari Jun 2012 #15
Voila -- EFerrari Jun 2012 #25
Fyi, it's the Salafis, not the MB, who are the Islamic extremists in Egypt: EFerrari Jun 2012 #16
Not really distinct - UBL's al-Qaeda emerged from MAK, an Egyptian/PAL splinter group run by the CIA leveymg Jun 2012 #21
That's right but I notice Egyptians today talk about the MB and the Salafis EFerrari Jun 2012 #22
Salafi refers more specifically to the Saudi-backed jihadis while MB retains some pan-Sunni identity leveymg Jun 2012 #23
Thanks. That makes the relationship a lot clearer. n/t EFerrari Jun 2012 #24
Tacked a PS onto my comment above. leveymg Jun 2012 #27
Really interesting article. Bookmarking that one. Thanks. nt riderinthestorm Jun 2012 #28
This is a link to pics from a Cairo based reporter that were retweeted by Alaa today: EFerrari Jun 2012 #29
I didn't see any women in any of those pics. Skip Intro Jun 2012 #30

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
1. What did people expect? Egypt is a Muslim country.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 11:27 AM
Jun 2012

Turkey, one of the few Muslim countries that has a secular government, struggles mightily to keep that government secular, and has done so for decades. Islam is not simply a religious belief, but extends into how governments operate in countries that are massively Islamic. The Egyptians rose up to get rid of Mubarak. This election pitted a Mubarak official against a leader of the Islamic Brotherhood. The Egyptians chose the Brotherhood candidate.

Expecting some different result is expecting too much. We often make that mistake here in the US. We expect things to be different than they can possibly be.

We'll have to see what comes of this election, but the election is over. The Egyptians have voted.

NNN0LHI

(67,190 posts)
2. To be accurate this wasn't an election. It was a runoff for an election that occurred months ago
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 11:33 AM
Jun 2012

The liberal candidate lost the election and didn't make it into the runoff.

Don

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
4. A runoff election is still an election.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 11:35 AM
Jun 2012

That the "liberal candidate" did not make it into the runoff is irrelevant. The process ended up with a winning candidate. Now what?

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
26. You do know there's electoral formats other than the one the US uses, right?
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 04:26 PM
Jun 2012

Runoff elections are most certainly elections, and quite common amongst the other ninety-five percent of the planetary population.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
3. Allahu Akbar is a pretty much standard Muslim greeting or farewell expression.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 11:34 AM
Jun 2012

Not much point of making a boogy man out of that.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
6. Yup. Why do so many think it's some sort of battle cry?
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 11:37 AM
Jun 2012

There are many references to Allah in daily speech. Just about every greeting or farewell includes a reference to Allah, and ordinary sentences include references to the will of Allah. Egypt is a Muslim country. Almost every person in Egypt is a Muslim. We do not understand Egypt unless we understand Islam. Same goes for the entire region.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
7. By systematically dismantling the only secular alternative - Arab socialism - this is what we get:
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 11:43 AM
Jun 2012

a choice between military kleptocracies or Islamic Republics.

Thanks, foreign policy establishment for all you've done.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
10. Those regimes were "socialist" in name only.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 01:22 PM
Jun 2012

Socialist Arab Nationalism was dead as a genuine political force by the late 60s. After that they degenerated into statist kleptocracies under the control of dictators and military juntas, if they were not already. The regimes repressed civil society and so that civil society became channeled into religious institutions, the only area the dictators could not touch.

Islamism developed as a result of those regimes you naively praise so much.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
11. Jeez, you take that to be "praise so much?"
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 01:52 PM
Jun 2012

Naive?

I think we both agree that there has been a certain foreshortening of apparent ideological and economic options, particularly in that most contested region. The result has been, those countries end up as is either military kleptocracies or theocratic states, or both. There are shades of grey.

Show me where I've praised these regimes, and I'll show you misinterpretation and an overly-literal mind at work.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
17. Sorry, "praise" was probably an unfair word to use.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 02:52 PM
Jun 2012

I think any truly popular democracy in the Middle East will be Islamist to some degree, that is unavoidable. Socialist Arab Nationalism was a movement of the upper-middle class intelligentsia and so had no chance. Only economic development can weaken the power of political Islam and lead to a more secularized politics. That is why Turkey's Islamists who are in power are so moderate, Turkey is the most developed country in the Middle East besides Israel.

I'm of the opinion that one cannot skip Capitalism and go straight from a pre-industrial tribal-feudal society directly to Socialism. People forget that Marx himself believed that Capitalism was a necessary stage in order to produce the vast amounts of wealth needed for Socialism and then Communism, which he seems to imply must be a post-scarcity society.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
20. With enough petrodollars to burn, any system can work for a while. Backwards or forwards.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 03:10 PM
Jun 2012

There are 12th Century theocracies next door to 21st Century police states in the region, and those that blend the two.

What hasn't happened is emergence of truly democratic development, because Royal Families, military dictators, and theocrats tend to want to run things. And, then there was the Cold War and multinational oil companies - any time that democracy threatened to emerge as in Iran in 1953, Kermit Roosevelt and the country club CIA came riding to the rescue.

Robb

(39,665 posts)
8. I've come to believe a MB in a position of power is actually the best hope for Egypt.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 11:53 AM
Jun 2012

Being forced to govern a diverse population, accustomed to a certain amount of freedom AND empowered with an effective vote, may move the Brotherhood into a centrist role in hope of keeping power.

Moderation is the key to all things. A MB that governs moderately would be the best of both worlds for the region, IMO.

tabatha

(18,795 posts)
12. Yep. The young more liberal people are not going to keep quiet.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 02:15 PM
Jun 2012

They will have to be catered to.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
13. Better yet. Let's leave their future up to the Egyption people.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 02:19 PM
Jun 2012

Unlike when we "helped" them by backing Mubarak.

NNN0LHI

(67,190 posts)
14. One is not mutually exclusive of the other
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 02:42 PM
Jun 2012

I can both wish them the best and leave their future up to the Egyptian people.

Don

EFerrari

(163,986 posts)
18. We're still "helping" them by supporting the junta.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 02:53 PM
Jun 2012

And I expect we'll "support" the MB as long as they are our best hope to keep the Egyptian military in our pocket.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
19. Yep. Under the guise of "Protecting our vital national interests".
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 02:59 PM
Jun 2012

Which worked ever so well in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Not to mention the long, long, list of other countries we've helped with "advisers", "intelligence gathering", rendition, torture, assassinations, and other assorted acts of Imperial Benevolence.

EFerrari

(163,986 posts)
15. The MB has repeatedly shown its willingness to negotiate
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 02:47 PM
Jun 2012

with Mubarak and with the junta. There is no reason to believe they won't negotiate with the US. IOW, they are part of the problem in Egypt, not some reserve of Islamist menace.

The junta will be at one small remove from power, that's all, imho.

Whether the Egyptian people are good with that, we'll find out.

EFerrari

(163,986 posts)
25. Voila --
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 04:18 PM
Jun 2012

US Embassy Cairo ?@USEmbassyCairo
@solilos We dealt with past regime to have partnership with ‪#Egypt‬. There was no other way then. Glad now to work with democratic Egypt
1:13 PM - 24 Jun 12 via HootSuite

https://twitter.com/USEmbassyCairo/status/216987522922852352

EFerrari

(163,986 posts)
16. Fyi, it's the Salafis, not the MB, who are the Islamic extremists in Egypt:
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 02:51 PM
Jun 2012

Contemporary Salafism

Salafism is attractive because it underscores Islam's universality.[44] It insists on the literal truth of Muslim scripture and what might be called a very confined and narrow brand of sharia or religious law.[44] Yet they may challenge secularism by appropriating secularism's traditional role of defending the socially and politically weak against the powerful.[45]

In recent years Salafis have come to be associated with the jihad of Al-Qaeda and related groups that advocate the killing of civilians, which are opposed by most other Muslim groups and governments, such as Emir Khattab an islamist revolutionary from Saudi Arabia who died fighting in Chechnya and has often been quoted denouncing violence against non-combatants. Debate continues today over the appropriate methods of reform, ranging from violent "Qutubi jihadism" to lesser politicized proselytizing.[citation needed] A majority of Salafi scholars stand firmly with the present-day manifestations of jihad, particularly as it relates to terrorism and the killing of civilians and innocents. They hold their opinion against as:

No individual has the right to take the law into his own hands on any account. Even the closest of Prophet Muhammad's companions never killed a single of his opponents even when invectives were hurled at him day and night in the first thirteen years of his Da'wah at Makkah. Nor did they kill anyone in retaliation when he was pelted with stones at Ta'if.

The spread of Salafism has prompted political leaders in the Middle East to accommodate a greater role for jihadist in public policy.[46]

Salafist jihadism is a school of thought of Salafi Muslims who support jihad. The term was coined by scholar Gilles Kepel[47][48] to describe Salafi who began developing an interest in jihad during the mid-1990s. Practitioners are often referred to as Salafi jihadis or Salafi jihadists. Journalist Bruce Livesey estimates Salafi jihadists constitute less than 1 percent of the world's 1.9 billion Muslims (c. 10 million).[47]

Despite some similarities, the different contemporary self-proclaimed Qutubi groups often strongly disapprove of one another and deny the other's Islamic character.[38][38][49]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi#Contemporary_Salafism

These guys make the MB look like the Simpsons.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
21. Not really distinct - UBL's al-Qaeda emerged from MAK, an Egyptian/PAL splinter group run by the CIA
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 03:26 PM
Jun 2012

UBL got his start by taking over the MAK Service Organization during the period that the CIA was using it as a global organizing front for the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

The U.S. channeled funds through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency to the Afghan Mujahideen fighting the Soviet occupation in a CIA program called Operation Cyclone.[75][76]

At the same time, a growing number of Arab mujahideen joined the jihad against the Afghan Marxist regime, facilitated by international Muslim organizations, particularly the Maktab al-Khidamat,[77] whose funds came from some of the $600 million a year donated to the jihad by the Saudi Arabia government and individual Muslims—particularly independent Saudi businessmen who were approached by bin Laden.[78][page needed]

Maktab al-Khidamat (MAK), or the "Services Office", a Muslim organization founded to raise and channel funds and recruit foreign mujahideen for the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan, was established by Abdullah Yusuf Azzam, a Palestinian Islamic scholar and member of the Muslim Brotherhood, and bin Laden in Peshawar, Pakistan, in 1984. MAK organized guest houses in Peshawar, near the Afghan border, and gathered supplies for the construction of paramilitary training camps to prepare foreign recruits for the Afghan war front. Bin Laden became a "major financier" of the mujahideen, spending his own money and using his connections with "the Saudi royal family and the petro-billionaires of the Gulf" in order to improve public opinion of the war and raise more funds.[79]
Omar Abdel-Rahman

From 1986, it began to set up a network of recruiting offices in the U.S., the hub of which was the Al Kifah Refugee Center at the Farouq Mosque in Brooklyn's Atlantic Avenue. Among notable figures at the Brooklyn center were "double agent" Ali Mohamed, whom FBI special agent Jack Cloonan called "bin Laden's first trainer,"[80] and "Blind Sheikh" Omar Abdel-Rahman, a leading recruiter of mujahideen for Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda evolved from the MAK.

Beginning in 1987, Azzam and bin Laden started creating camps inside Afghanistan.[81]

U.S. government financial support for the Afghan Islamic militants was substantial. Aid to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an Afghan mujahideen leader. and founder and leader of the Hezb-e Islami radical Islamic militant faction, alone amounted "by the most conservative estimates" to $600 million. Later, Hekmatyar "worked closely" with bin Laden in the early 1990s, when US support had ceased.[82] In addition to hundreds of millions of dollars of American aid, Hekmatyar also received the lion's share of aid from the Saudis.[83] There is evidence that the CIA supported Hekmatyar's drug trade activities by giving him immunity for his opium trafficking that financed operation of his militant faction.[84]



MAK was an MB offshoot, and Azzam was an important MB leader: http://www.pwhce.org/azzam.html

Dr. Abdullah Yusuf Azzam (1941-1989)
Also Known As The Godfather of Jihad Abdullah Al-Zam

Biography Dr Abdullah Azzam was both a scholar and a mujahid of immense importance to the development of contemporary Islamic radicalism, particularly in the foundation of al-Qaeda. Born in West Bank Jordan in 1941, he was a child when Israel was founded. He joined the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood before he had come of age, and was involved in actions against Israel.1

1 Introductory biographical notes to Abdullah Azzam, Defence of the Muslim Lands.)

Azzam obtained a PhD in fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) at al-Azhar University, Egypt, in 1973, where he became friends with the Qutb family, Sheikh 'Umar Abd el-Rahman2 and Ayman al-Zawahiri. He became a lecturer at Amman University but was obliged to leave due to his radical views, and resumed his academic career as a lecturer at Abdulaziz University, Saudi Arabia, where he influenced a generation of Saudis, including Usama bin Laden.3

2 Leader of Gamaa Islamiyya.
3 Peter Bergen, Holy War Inc, p50,55.

He had connections with Yasser Arafat and is said to have had a role in founding Hamas,4 however he broke with the Palestinian struggle on the basis that it was polluted with a secular national liberation ideology, rather than being purely Islamic.5 The pan-Islamic ideal was important to Azzam, for whom "geographic[al] borders that have been drawn up for us by the Kuffar (non-Muslims)" between Muslim countries6 were part of a conspiracy to prevent the umma from realising the potential of a trans-national Islamic state.
4 Esposito, Unholy War, p7.
5 Bodansky, Bin Laden, p11.
6 Defence of the Muslim Lands, Chapter four.

When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, Azzam produced a fatwa (religious proclamation), Defence of the Muslim Lands, and had it confirmed by high-ranking clerics including Saudi Arabia's Grand Mufti (highest religious scholar), Abd al-Aziz Bin Bazz. The fatwa declared that both the Afghan and Palestinian struggles were jihads and that killing kuffar in those countries was fard ayn (a personal obligation) for all Muslims. He founded Mekhtab al-Khadimat (Services Office, MAK), establishing guest houses in Peshawar, Pakistan and training camps in Afghanistan, working closely with Usama bin Laden from an early stage.7 Many recurring elements in bin Laden's declarations duplicate the ideas Azzam expressed in works such as Defence of the Muslim Lands.8 It was also during this time that Azzam, lecturing in Islamabad, supervised the PhD thesis of Mullah Krekar, who went on to be the leader of Kurdish terrorist organisation Ansar al-Islam.
7 Chasdi, Tapestry of Terror, p297. Bergen, Holy War Inc, p54.
8 See for example, Abdullah Azzam, Join the Caravan.
9 Abdullah bin Omar, The Striving Sheik: Abdullah Azzam, Nida'ul Islam, 14th issue, July-September 1996.
Also reproduced with alterations in Rubin and Rubin, Anti-American Terrorism and the Middle East, p63.
11 Zeidan, The Islamist View of Life as a Perennial Battle, in Rubin and Rubin, p23. See also Defence of the Muslim Lands, chapter one; "One of the most important lost obligations is the forgotten obligation of fighting."
11 By 'takfiri' is meant post-Qutbists who condemned Egyptian society as non-Muslim and absolutely rejected collaboration with the Government.
12 Reeve, The New Jackals, p169.

Azzam's message was a radical one. The struggle in Afghanistan was a model for future struggles, with the objective of establishing an Islamic Khillafat (Caliphate, Islamic empire) spanning all Muslim lands, and eventually the world.9 He agreed with Muhammad Abd al-Salam Faraj that jihad was a vital but forgotten duty11 - Azzam's trademark slogan was, "Jihad and the rifle alone: no negotiations, no conferences and no dialogues." This intoxicating message, breathtaking in its expansiveness, played an important role in the ideological formation of bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Mullah Krekar and many other Islamic radicals.

External Enemies Between 1966 and 1979, Egyptian post-Qutb 'takfiris'11 saw the destruction of the near enemy (the Egyptian regime) as a prerequisite for attacks on the far enemy (Israel), and condemned those who allied themselves with the regime in order to attack Israel for placing (Egyptian or Arab) nationalism ahead of the pan-Islamic ideal. Azzam's approach to this question, and the experience of fighting a defensive war against an external enemy in Afghanistan, turned this understanding on its head. Those who begged indifference to the 'foreign' war in Afghanistan were recognising artificial national barriers between Muslims. It is this shift which caused pan-Islamist terrorism to change its modus operandi from intra-Muslim terrorism to the global terrorism of al-Qaeda.

On 24th November 1989, Abdullah Azzam and two of his sons were killed in Peshawar when their car exploded. It is not known who planted the bomb.12 (Many believe that it was UBL, or his backers, who had Azzam assassinated.)


EFerrari

(163,986 posts)
22. That's right but I notice Egyptians today talk about the MB and the Salafis
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 03:35 PM
Jun 2012

as different groups/interests/actors although historically (and maybe practically in ways I don't know or understand) they may not be so distinct.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
23. Salafi refers more specifically to the Saudi-backed jihadis while MB retains some pan-Sunni identity
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 03:47 PM
Jun 2012

Both movements in their modern iteration go back to the 1920s. MB was an Arab nationalist movement ostensibly organized against British rule in the region but had its home in exile in Paris (late in London), while the Salaafists have always been the house militia of the House of Saad since they "unified" the Arabian Peninsula with some British and American help during and after WWI.

Previously, beginning in the last years of the 18th century Ibn Saud and his heirs would spend the next 140 years mounting various military campaigns to seize control of Arabia and its outlying regions, before being attacked and defeated by Ottoman forces. After WWI, the Brits and US turned those areas over to Saud and his Wahhabi (Salafist) army in exchange for exclusive oil concessions.

P.S. - Came across an interesting article about the Syrian MB. I'm not sure I endorse the take by the author that Israel and the US really have divergent interests in Syria, but it does give some factual background on where the Syrian MB stand vis a vis their colleagues in other countries in the Arab world. See, http://www.atimes.com/atimes/middle_east/nf06ak01.html

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
27. Tacked a PS onto my comment above.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 04:47 PM
Jun 2012

BTW: If you have time, there is an excellent article about events in Lebanon and Syria written by a California writer, Charles Glass, who was at the American University in Beirut who has maintained his ties to the region. Well worth the read: http://www.charlesglass.net/archives/2005/11/from_beirut_to.html

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