General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsA two-income family today is poorer than a one-income family was in the 1970s
A two-income family today is poorer than a one-income family was in the 1970s
Posted on June 23, 2012
On several occasions, I have glibly referred to how it now takes two spouses working to equal the wages of a one-income family of 40 years ago. Unfortunately, that is now an understatement. In fact, Western wages have plummeted so low that a two-income family is now (on average) 15% poorer than a one-income family of 40 years ago. Jim Nielson | The Street
This death of the American middle class can be blamed on the Republican Partys decades-long union busting efforts combined with men like Mitt Romney who run companies like Bain Capital for the purpose of creating wealth for the few, by laying off hundreds of thousands of American workers, who once earned living wages and benefits, who once shared in a companys productivity and success. For decades now vulture capitalists have downsized and closed American companies, offering only low-wage replacement jobs to some of the workers they laid off, while outsourcing most of the formerly American jobs to countries like China and India. And we can also blame a tax code, won by a lobby of the wealthiest among us, that rewards corporations with deductions and loopholes and subsidies for taking American jobs to other countries, enriching a few while cratering our economy at home.
And the Republican Party tells us the One Percenters need more tax cuts (i.e. they need to hoard even more money?) to create a few more jobs tax cuts that would be paid for, by the way, by cutting programs and services that the rest of us depend on. Its almost comical when you consider this fact: the average Fortune 500 CEO now makes 380 times more than the average worker, CEO pay has grown more than 127 times faster than worker pay over the last 30 years, and their pay increased last year.
More, to these people, is never enough.
http://underthemountainbunker.com/2012/06/23/a-two-income-family-today-is-poorer-than-a-one-income-family-was-in-the-1970s/
MisterP
(23,730 posts)Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)If you cannot tell the difference, I really can't help you.
dtom67
(634 posts)You can always tell who the Republican shills are.
JHB
(37,161 posts)...what the do is reroute and redistribute wealth that others have already created, sending it into the pockets of the few (including themselves).
tawadi
(2,110 posts)I believe it. Many of us are working harder just to survive.
All the while to busy to pay close attention to the politics of the day. I would venture that a large demographic have to settle for what's on TV by the end of the day. Being fed crap and working 12 jobs just to stay above water. Exactly how the ruling class want it. Also the maintain the dumbing down of America because the returns on that investment were huge!
Completely frustrating and sad.
-p
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)We were never "well-off", but we had a decent place to live, a new car now & then, and vacations from time to time..and I was able to be a stay-at-home Mom until all three were in school all day long.. EIGHT years on one income.
It was not a romp in the park on a sunny afternoon, but we managed comfortably.
Out first son had MAJOR health issues (29 surgeries at Mayo Clinic before he was 8), and our medical coverage was wonderful. We were able to pay our share, and even though it was a great hardship to spend 4-6 weeks in Rochester every January & April, we managed it with NO CREDIT CARDS, and no lingering debt.
Try that now
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)I'm not an economist and I don't understand it. But are we really manufacturing anything and producing anything tangible anymore or are we just engaged in a big game of monopoly, shifting play money around from one person's pocket to another's?
yellerpup
(12,253 posts)over it once all the wealth is concentrated. We will become serfs in corporate fiefdoms and wage wars against ourselves. We will pay for those wars in blood, treasure, and collateral damage and the citizen corporations will reap the spoils. As you know, in Monopoly there is only one winner.
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)A freeman became a serf usually through force or necessity. Sometimes freeholders or allodial owners were intimidated into dependency by the greater physical and legal force of a local magnate. Often a few years of crop failure, a war or brigandage might leave a person unable to make his own way. In such a case a bargain was struck with a lord of a manor. In exchange for protection, service was required, in cash, produce or with labour, or a combination of all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom
How many people do you know who can "make his own way" without laboring for someone else?
yellerpup
(12,253 posts)corporate wage slave. Being in the arts, I know quite a few people who 'make their own way' without laboring for a corporation, but I get what you mean.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)health insurance became too much to pay as the economy dragged down.
I've been a wage slave and a slave for health care for almost 10 years now.
My husband has had a "contractor" for over a year now, and I quit my
HATED job of 9 years, now we are having to pay "gap" health insurance,
and I don't even know if we will qualify, as a family, to but the expensive
health insurance my new job offers.
The laws I've read say that you can be rejected for "pre-existing" conditions
if you are not covered for more than 63 days in a row. Of course, the insurance
with the new job doesn't kick in for THREE MONTHS.
Cobra for 3 months for my family would have been $4,200!
I went for the "gap" insurance, but no one can tell me if that is considered
"coverage enough" to qualify as "being insured" in the over 63 day interim.
National Health Care is my BIGGEST issue. We could all be free to strike
or change jobs with impunity if we had it.
SunSeeker
(51,584 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)There are so many elements to it that most people just fall asleep or walk away thinking they just don't/can't understand it.
Yes we do still manufacture some things here, but it's a small fraction of what we did, but then you'll hear about how we export a comparable amount to what we did, even though the trade deficit constantly grows. The thing is that today we are exporting raw materials to other nations where the real value is added by turning them into something, whereas that value used to be added here. The real money is in the added value of manufacture, not the raw materials, and that's one of the reasons our manufacturing base was shipped to China and now they're kicking our asses.
The timber-to-lumber industry is a good example, if you are interested. It's a pretty straightforward example and lots of information is easy to find.
NNN0LHI
(67,190 posts)I have been attacked here before for posting that this was the way it once was.
Like someone doesn't want the new workers to know this is the way it is supposed to be.
The wealthy want to treat us all like mushrooms. Kept in the dark and fed on manure.
Don
or just had people point out it isn't true?
Sure, some workers could graduate from high school and get good paying jobs with good benefits, but that was hardly true of everybody in the US. As if poverty, unemployment and minimum wage jobs didn't exist in 1973. Of course, the 2011 value of the mimimum wage in 1973 was $7.97 down from $9.12 in 1970 but about to be raised to $8.98 in 1974 and it held at about $8.60 until the inflation of the late 1970s and then the election of Ronald Reagan caused it to not be raised in nine years so that even when it was raised in 1990 (to $3.80) its real value was still only $6.43.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)unpaid internships..hah!
Young people learned on the job and advanced as they learned more.
and companies actually had profit-sharing.. I still remember my husband getting a company financial printout and a check for his share every year.
NNN0LHI
(67,190 posts)Thank you for bringing it up.
Don
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)According to this, inflation adjusted median income was $43,479 in 1975 and was $49,445 in 2010.
Of course, this is 2012 and there has been a farily steady decline in the real median income since it peaked in 1999 at $53,252, except for coming back in 2007 to $52,823.
http://www.davemanuel.com/median-household-income.php
jwirr
(39,215 posts)look high but be misleading.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)the median of 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 is 5, because there are two above and two below. The median is where 50% is above and 50% is below. In this case it is the same as the average, which is the sum divided by the number.
But if you took 1, 3, 5, 7 and 31,415,926,535,897,932 - the median is still only 5 whereas the average is about 6,000,000,000,000,000 and whereas the median of 1, 1, 7, 8, and 8 is 7.
My problem with medians is that a rising median does not necessarily help people. For example,
the median of 5, 6, 7, 10, and 12 is 7
the median of 1, 2, 9, 9, and 10 is 9.
The median went up by two, but 80% are worse off. A rising median only helps you if you are either near the median, or rising yourself.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 24, 2012, 02:25 PM - Edit history (1)
the median are making so much more than those below that the median is skewed. One of the reasons the comfortable are adamant about contradicting what you see for yourself and those around you.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)... in order that the wealthy can become even wealthier from the labor of others. Labor's "share" of the wealth they create is at historical lows in the U.S. Further, our tax policies make it worse. When the income one receives from one's own labor is taxed at 35%, while the income one receives from the labor of others is below 15%, it's offensive to any sane person.
KakistocracyHater
(1,843 posts)aka a Robin Hood Tax that 15% is ridiculous
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)Even a 1% tax on the sale or exchange of common stock (more on preferred) would be a minimal subsidy of the enormous services of government in creating and enforcing the very entitlement that is "stock" and the entitlement that is a "corporation." Neither exist at all without the power of the state in creating such legal fictions and enforcing the system of "rules" (laws) regarding their behavior and value. These are things which don't exist in Nature ... and we seem to ignore God's wisdom in not doing so.
KakistocracyHater
(1,843 posts)services taxes-their god(money) forbid!
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)It's insane. It's often rationalized by falsehoods -or- the observation that smokers are a minority. The 'minority' causing the MOST damage to the MOST people are those whose wretched wealth is gained from the labor of others who, in the 'race for the bottom,' are forced to accept ever-lower compensation for work that decreases their life expectancy, often drastically.
It's an unspeakable obscenity.
KakistocracyHater
(1,843 posts)back because of sales taxes. Meanwhile my Aunt is slowly dying from emphysema, my Uncle by marriage died of it, BOTH his parents died from smoking......smokers act like tobacco is more addicting then heroin
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)That is how we get back to where we once belonged. Raise minimum wage to $10.00 or $12.00 an hour with benefits like single payer from the government. Start infrastructure projects, give tax breaks for companies that hire. More green energy jobs. We need to bring taxes back up to or over 50% for the rich. Let them move if they don't like it.
valerief
(53,235 posts)TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)previously accumulated wealth. Most of the very richest people on earth have relatively modest incomes.
The transaction tax is a good idea for several reasons. Couple this with a very high inheritance tax and equilibrium can be achieved.
DLevine
(1,788 posts)My dad supported my mom & 5 kids working a union factory job back in the 60s & 70s.
senseandsensibility
(17,090 posts)They just don't want to know, but they'll take the rest of us down with them.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)ananda
(28,870 posts)Here talking about rent/mortgage, transportation, utilities, healthcare, etc.
TV was free too.
valerief
(53,235 posts)states have decimated, so people would have to rely on self-purchased cars and self-purchased GASOLINE.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Most activities and materials were provided, it is much different now.
Would that be accounted for? I doubt it.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Romulox
(25,960 posts)kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)Has it really been 40 years? How time flies.
But have no fear, we will reach Mexico-like levels of poverty eventually. Give it time to work. We're trickling down, slowly but surely. Then we can set our sights on Bangladesh.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)Doesn't anybody here ever verify? It's like the GMO cyanide grass (which turned out to be just a regular old fashioned plant hybridization).
Median 2-earner families
1970: 56,073
2010: 83,676
Median 1-earner families
1970: 41,851
2010: 42,863
The median 2-earner family is TWICE as well off as the median 1-earner family from 40 years ago. I attribute this to the increased parity in women's employment. The difference between 2-earner now and 1 earner 40 years ago is even greater when comparing the mean.
Data from census.gov
Romulox
(25,960 posts)2010 workers aren't spending their money in 1970. They have to pay 2010 prices. Even adjusted for inflation, not taking this into accounts amounts to a massive distortion.
That's before we even begin to ponder the justice of incomes standing still while productivity has increased tenfold.
dkf
(37,305 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)mathematic
(1,439 posts)The concept of "paying 2010 prices" is inflation.
Part of calculating inflation is determining how people spend their money. Until recently, these expenditure patterns were updated relatively infrequently (once a decade). Now they're updated every two years. The figures I provided calculate inflation using the appropriate historical expenditure patterns.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)mathematic
(1,439 posts)I appreciate your skepticism. Note that practically no skepticism was levied at the OP's false claims in this thread.
Census income data by families:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/families/
The specific data I cite:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/families/2010/F12AR_2010.xls
As noted in the above data file, the series uses 2010 CPI-U-RS, the full CPI-U (including energy and food) adjusted for researching historical price data (the RS stands for research series).
This link contains excellent background on the CPI-U-RS:
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1999/06/art4full.pdf
Here's a list of the CPI-U-RS index values used by the census bureau:
https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/incpovhlth/2009/CPI-U-RS-Index-2009.pdf
Romulox
(25,960 posts)the inflation adjusted purchasing power of current wages has been essentially flat since 1970, based almost entirely on the higher quality (and lower prices) of consumer goods?
Is that it, in a nut-shell?
NNN0LHI
(67,190 posts)<snip>Regular readers will recognize the chart below on U.S. average wages.
Using the year 2000 as the numerical base from which to "zero" all of the numbers, real wages peaked in 1970 at around $20/hour. Today the average worker makes $8.50/hour -- more than 57% less than in 1970. And since the average wage directly determines the standard of living of our society, we can see that the average standard of living in the U.S. has plummeted by over 57% over a span of 40 years.
There are no "tricks" here. Indeed, all of the tricks are used by our governments. The green line shows average wages, discounted by inflation calculated with the same methodology for all 40 years. Obviously that is the only way in which we can compare any data over time: through applying identical parameters to it each year.
Then we have the blue line: showing wage data discounted with our "official" inflation rate. The problem? The methodology used by our governments to calculate inflation in 1975 was different from the method they used in 1985, which was different than the method they used in 1995, which was different than the method they used in 2005.
Two obvious points flow from this observation. First, it is tautological that the only way in which data can be compared meaningfully is to use a consistent methodology. If the government thinks it has improved upon its inflation methodology, then all it had to do was take all of its old data and re-calculate it with their "improved" methodology. Since 1970 there is this invention called "computers" which makes such calculations rather simple.
This brings us to the second point: the refusal of our governments to adopt a consistent methodology in reporting inflation statistics can only imply a deliberate attempt to deceive, since it is 100% logically/statistically invalid to simply string together disconnected series of data -- and present it as if it represents a consistent picture. More specifically, we can see precisely what lie our government was attempting to get us to believe.
Unfortunately, too many people refuse to think.
Older people prefer to think their children are just irresponsible maybe. It took me months to convince my parents that everything has changed since they were my age.
They bought a house on a civil engineer's salary. We can't save for a down payment on an attorney's salary.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)Tim Nielson, the author of that shoddy analysis, is a gold salesman with a law degree. I don't think it's too outrageous to suggest that the economists working for the bls and census bureau are a better source for economic analysis.
It's true that a consistent inflation methodology needs to be used to analyze historical data. That's why the bls came up with the CPI-U-RS and that's why the census bureau uses it. This would be obvious if you read my post and the links I gave.
Note that the author/salesman uses the shadow government statistics inflation series. This is a junk series put out by a private party. It actually imputes positive inflation from changes in the market basket, among other absurd tactics.
NNN0LHI
(67,190 posts)Thank you for pointing that out with the additional info.
Sorry about my sloppiness.
Don
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)If not, then none of the aforementioned numbers really matter.
Plus, as mentioned upthread household 'overhead' is far different now than it was back then. Some companies require you to own a cell phone (but don't pay for it). Many places don't have public transportation services. Places where housing is cheaper, are usually further away from the jobs. And so on.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)The cpi tracks price changes for a representative mixture of goods. Like you and others have sort of commented on, this mixture changes over time (though practically speaking it doesn't change that much). I'm not sure what distinction you're making between the inflation index and a purchasing power index. In particular, I don't know of any kind of difference that would make the CPI-U-RS adjusted numbers meaningless.
The overhead argument is a bit of a red herring, as the claim by the OP is about gross income. I encourage you to add data about disposable income, etc, to the thread if you're interested in discussing it. You can probably find some at bls.gov or census.gov.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)that we don't want to be able to afford new cars, since used cars are so good!
Nevermind the fact that any rational consumer would rather have a new car than used, all other things held constant.
In this way, government economists have contradicted the clear signals of the market with their own judgment, and all in order to "prove" that shrinking wages aren't so bad. Also, they have changed their mind as to how pollution controls should affect one's perception of inflation, and have therefore made further changes...
Hard to see any level of precision here. It's more politic than "science", that's for certain!
newthinking
(3,982 posts)the real changes in purchasing and livability.
Sure, electronics are realitively cheaper, but that is worth little if the price of most of the necessities of life have gone up dramatically while wages have not.
Skittles
(153,170 posts)mathematic
(1,439 posts)Economists are aware of the perils of over adjusting these factors. That's why you see things like the 1999 decision to change pollution from a quality to a price adjustment. Honestly, considering the large negative externalities of pollution, I don't know why they wouldn't view pollution controls as an increase in quality. Perhaps its because pollution controls are government mandated so it's not like people can choose to buy "lesser quality" cars that don't have them.
As a hypothetical, let's say a man in 1970 makes just enough to buy an average car, an average house, and an average TV. Compare him to a man from 2010 that makes just enough to buy an average car, an average house, and an average TV. You would say, with no quality adjustments, that these men earn the same amount of money. But then why would anybody that isn't absolutely crazy prefer the goods that the 1970 man bought?
I'll note that cars and houses are not hedonically adjusted. The value of the increased quality is estimated the old-fashioned way: by comparing prices to things with the feature to things without the feature.
Regarding substitutions, CPI is meant to capture the change in prices in a basket of representative goods. If people are changing what they're buying then the basket needs to change. Spending habits just don't stay the same over time. For example, people spend more on entertainment now than they did 40 years ago.
The statement "any rational consumer would rather have a new car than used, all other things held constant" is either not true or a banal tautology (depending on what you mean by "all other things" . I know at current prices I prefer a used car to a new car. If you mean literally all other things held constant than the definition of "rational consumer" requires preferring more wealth to less wealth, so yes a new car is preferable. Personally, in such a situation, I'd take the new car, sell it, and buy a used car.
Measuring prices isn't easy. That's why I trust the data-driven, scientific methods and analysis of the professional, experienced, government employed economists over that of the random internet-based gold seller who was the source of the false claim in the OP. But feel free to maintain that these economists are engaged in a massive government conspiracy to screw regular americans.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)If you'd prefer a used car to a new car, for the same price (ALL other things held constant, remember,) for example, you are simply not a rational consumer.
The rest of your post is mere justification for the subjective nature of those figures. You made your initial assertions to this thread with such confidence. Your above post represents MAJOR backpedaling.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)My "assertions" are actual data. I'm not backpedaling at all. The OP was and is spectacularly wrong. Your skepticism is selectively applied and there is no way I can convince you that the data is the data.
So its "banal tautology". Sell the new car and buy a used one. Pocket the $5k. That's the freakin' definition of economic rationality. That same rational consumer would go with the 2010 products from my hypothetical.
And what's to comment on your rental example? It's straightforward. Month 1 the rent did not include broadband, month 2 the rent did include broadband. So the BLS makes a quality adjustment to the price observed, adjusting it upward. Broadband isn't free. Not making this adjustment would be wrong. It also doesn't matter that the person's renting from their parents.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)"So its 'banal tautology'. Sell the new car and buy a used one. Pocket the $5k."
Is English not your first language? This is the second (and final) time I'll explain the meaning of this straightforward phrase. The price of the new car and the used car is the same in this example. Every time. Please focus.
"And what's to comment on your rental example?"
I didn't make any rental example. Just like you don't make much sense.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)So I'll give you a lesson.
Price does not mean the same thing as value (look it up!). A new and a used car, even of the same price, do not have the same value. Thus the rational consumer chooses the more valuable one by the definition of "rational".
And your rental example is the one about living in your parent's basement. If you didn't mean it to be a rental situation then the BLS is obviously not collecting any price data on it. So either it was a rental example or I ignored it, not demonstrating a flaw in anything I've said (as you claimed in another post), but as a completely irrelevant attempted derailment.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)"A new and a used car, even of the same price, do not have the same value."
Right. ALL ELSE HELD EQUAL, A NEW CAR IS MORE VALUABLE EACH TIME.
Which is why any fool would choose a new car instead of used one, for the same price (all other variable being held equal though, remember? )
EDIT: Edited this for simplicity, since the poster I'm responding to has such a hard time with getting other posters' points (see below, e.g.)
mathematic
(1,439 posts)With all these great things nowadays having more value than things 40 years ago, it'd be nice if that was somehow reflected in the price index. OH IT IS.
Response to mathematic (Reply #99)
Romulox This message was self-deleted by its author.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)and therefore living at home is becoming more valuable.
Same logic, precisely.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)just took an exam on it yesterday. I'm saying the CPI 'basket of goods' is not always representative of the items that are needed for particular households in this day and age (for instance, the Canadian CPI has a weighting of 12% for Recreation/education and reading, wtf? how do those all belong together, and if recreation is getting cheaper and artificially lowering the CPI, how does that help poor people?) Also, I'd like to know what the adjustments for quality consist of, and if other bias changes like new goods, or commodity substitution or outlet substitution are even considered.
Not going to touch your disposable income stuff. I quickly looked at census.gov and couldn't find any disposable income stuff or real GDP per capital statistics. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)I'm kinda surprised you haven't considering you were tested on it. Here's the link:
http://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/pdf/homch17.pdf
The basket of goods is often not representative of any particular group. It's a composite. A classic example is that the elderly have a different spending pattern than the general population. The CPI-U doesn't claim to represent the changes in prices for them. The BLS does publish the CPI-E which is an inflation index weighted to reflect the expenses of that demographic.
The basket of goods itself is constantly being updated and it's based on the Consumer Expenditures Survey by the BLS. Originally this was once a decade but starting early last decade it's every 2 years.
When no price for item in the CPI sample can be found, the BLS looks for a new item to replace it.
There are three possibilities to determine the price change:
1. The prices are directly compared
2. The value of the difference in quality between the items are estimated, chiefly through:
a. Manufacturer cost data
b. Hedonic regression
3. The new item price is imputed, for cases where the data is missing/uncollectable.
Substitution effects are only applicable for very specific expenditure categories. An example is that one type of steak can be substituted for another type of steak but not for ground beef. The substitution effect is implemented via a geometric formula.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)so probably different but thanks. And you still aren't understanding what I was getting at. But that's okay, I can see you aren't a 'big picture' person.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)I give you straightforward answers to your questions. I give you a link with way more detail than you'll probably ever want. And you give me some lame you're-too-dull-to-ever-see-what-I-see nonsense. Well I can't see into your gut, so if the truth's in there you're going to have to do a better job of explaining it. (In the future, and to other people. I'm through explaining things to fundamentalists for the evening).
Romulox
(25,960 posts)laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)Why because I don't bow to your monetarist/classical gods?
mathematic
(1,439 posts)You've got it backwards. I'm the one using a price based measure. Monetarists measure inflation by the money supply. But it's certainly strange how you managed to figure out my economic philosophy just from me posting data that contradicts the OP's false claim.
Fundamentalist seems like a good enough description for somebody that rejects the scientific consensus because it violates a personal worldview.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)There are a lot of economists who would argue otherwise. But none of us who are old enough to know better need to be convinced. We KNOW.
This material comes from one. Link at the bottom.
________
Consumer Price Index Has Been Reconfigured Since Early-1980s
So As to Understate Inflation versus Common Experience
CPI no longer measures the cost of maintaining a constant standard of living.
CPI no longer measures full inflation for out-of-pocket expenditure.
With the misused cover of academic theory, politicians forced significant underreporting of official inflation, so as to cut annual cost-of-living adjustments to Social Security, etc.
Use of the CPI to adjust retirement benefits, private income or to set investment goals impairs the ability of retirees, income earners and investors to stay ahead of inflation.
Understated inflation used in estimating inflation-adjusted growth has created the illusion of recovery in reported GDP.
From:
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts
Romulox
(25,960 posts)these numbers (such as the infamously "volatile" food and fuel categories.)
So that piqued my curiosity as to what is included in the figures you cite...
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)Lots of jargon I don't understand, but the basics is that there are all kinds of adjustments for every category for things like quality, using different methodologies, and that it's not particularly consistent. There were a few things I noticed that felt 'off' like how much they adjusted for medical costs.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)for example, the used automobile section I mention above.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)It helps me stay sane. We all know the Joneses have changed a bit over time.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)Factoid: Fact divorced from context.
Never mind, I see that other DUers have voiced the same concerns.
Welcome to DU
mathematic
(1,439 posts)Context like exact links to the data and inflation index methodology? Context like the OP's false economic analysis stems from a non-economist gold salesman that has a vested interest in convincing everybody that money is becoming more and more worthless?
Precisely what context would make the OP's claim true? Where's your skepticism now?
And you can shove that troll-hunting BS right back where it came from. I'm quoting mainstream data from professional economists working for the federal government. If you're going to call me a troll for that then there's only one thing I can say to you and your "concerns".
As for the GMO cyanide grass, given your sarcastic troll-hunting welcome, I have no particular interest in informing you on that. Feel free to believe it or not. I would prefer that you didn't believe it and thus expose to everybody the level of diligence you apply to claims that agree with your worldview.
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)You did not discuss inflation, (core or not) longer hours without pay or any of the other factors that give context to your assertion other than showing 2 sets of numbers from different years.
Even teenagers know things cost more now than when they were children. So, initially, no, you did not provide context.
You need to tread lightly here. Accusing me of calling you a troll could be grounds for alerting moderators. (Although I don't find that kind of action necessary, other people do not hesitate. I tend to think rational adults should either have tough skin or facts to back their assertions. Either one works for me.)
So, I was actually sincere in my request. I posted that story from CBS onto another site and like any responsible person, don't want to pass along misinformation.
However, when I tried to find the story, all I kept coming up with were the original reports. So, since you made the assertion that the story was false, I would like some verification.
If you can't stand people picking apart your arguments, you may not want to post on this site. 'Cause, look around... that's gonna happen.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)Besides you don't need any more context than census.gov. Go there. Look up the data. Read the footnotes. You were free to get as much "context" as you wanted. I'm not making an "argument" I'm presenting data that contradicts the OP's claim. Just as simple as that. You haven't picked apart or rebutted any of that.
As for the so-called GMO grass, I believe you're confused. You're the one that doesn't want to pass on mis-information. I'd highly recommend you make a more concerted effort to fact check. It's not my responsibility to help you maintain your credibility.
And you're going to alert the mods for me pointing out that you used the standard DU sarcastic welcome to people they disagree with. That's rich. But please do let me know when you get in touch with those DU3 moderators.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)I'm not usually a jerk but you started it and I think you earned it. But I'll return to my usual dispassionate data-driven posting ways.
Here's the link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002848609#post26
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)For someone who considers themselves dispassionate, you certainly are quick to take offense where none was offered.
I am quite serious. Other than coming in late to the game, how was questioning your initial post a problem? If you will notice, I edited it to say that my question regarding your post had already been addressed by others.
If you are serious about both using data and being dispassionate, you may want to learn to look a little deeper than a cursory surface glance at the "facts at hand". Critical thinking is required.
Thank you for the link. I will post to my other boards so as not to sow confusion.
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)Thanks!
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)Webster's defines speedup as "an employer's demand for accelerated output without increased pay," and it used to be a household word. Bosses would speed up the line to fill a big order, to goose profits, or to punish a restive workforce. Workers recognized it, unions (remember those?) watched for and negotiated over itand, if necessary, walked out over it.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)It shows a dramatic drop over the 30 years, which reflects far more accurately what we are living through. IIRC, the mode dropped from slightly below the mean to right around $25K.
I usually save links to that sort of thing, but...
mathematic
(1,439 posts)Households include "nonfamily households", which are basically single people. This changes the demographics a bit. Nevertheless, here's the breakdown by $5k increments:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032011/hhinc/new06_000.htm
The 15k-20k category is the largest (the mode) and the size of the categories gradually decline as the increments increase. The mode is basically at the 20% mark. This is generally the shape of the graph for this type of data. I don't know how this has changed over time but I expect it's gotten worse since low skill workers have fewer higher wage options these days.
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)If the average American had actually shared in the countrys seeming prosperity the past two decades, his wealth, instead of stagnating, would have increased by some three-fourths.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-policy-has-contributed-to-the-great-economic-divide/2012/06/22/gJQAXTX2vV_story.html
So, while we may not be falling behind, we sure as hell ain't getting ahead.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)mathematic
(1,439 posts)I'm embarrassed for you. There's really no other way to put it.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)arguments, then take on the world.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Perhaps there's a single common thread in all of this embarrassment, eh?
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)The fact is it takes a two income household to live the life of a one income household in 1970.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)if we earn less.
Peaceful Protester
(280 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 24, 2012, 06:26 PM - Edit history (2)
Republicans believe in trickle-down economics and a predatory form of capitalism known as vulture capitalism. Trickle-down economics rely on deregulation to gush wealth to the top. Vulture capitalism relies on corporate raiders, leveraged buyouts and hostile takeovers. Republican policies enable greed, corruption and increasingly complex ponzi schemes to flourish. The result is a huge disparity in wealth and finally a financial crisis that crashes the economy.
The Republican policy agenda pursues deregulation and privatization. This eventually set the stage for people like Mitt Romney, who pioneered outsourcing, to go to work siphoning millions from the middle class. He made his money through managed bankruptcies. He bought businesses, laid off workers, outsourced their jobs, took their health care and pocketed their pensions. The money he took from them was parked in swiss bank accounts, offshore accounts, and in the bahamas.
NOTE: The financial crash wiped out 40% of Middle Class wealth.
(see http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002826853)
Peaceful Protester
(280 posts)A Bill Moyers interview describes how the banks achieved a gigantic rip-off by secretly colluding to rig the public bids on municipal bonds, a business worth $3.7 trillion.
By conspiring to lower the interest rates that towns earn on these investments, the banks systematically stole from schools, hospitals, libraries and nursing homes from "virtually every state, district and territory in the United States," according to one settlement.
(Ref: http://www.democraticunderground.com/101736377)
Bill Moyers & Company
The Follies of Big Banks and Government - (billmoyers.com)
http://tinyurl.com/7hn4xrg
Peaceful Protester
(280 posts)Some people blame Bush for the state of the union, but Bush was actually a good president in that he sought to bring Republican policies to fruition. The problem was not in the execution of these policies, but the actual policies themselves; Republican policies have produced a Global War AND a Global Recession! Yet, Republicans accuse Democrats of not fixing these global messes "fast" enough!
For the Conservatives, this is not a financial crisis but a long-awaited opportunity
http://tinyurl.com/36v3tzv
Public bodies whose purpose is to hold corporations to account are being swept away. Public bodies whose purpose is to help boost corporate profits, regardless of the consequences for people and the environment, have sailed through unharmed.
The Shock Doctrine
In her book The Shock Doctrine, Naomi Klein shows how disaster capitalism was conceived by the extreme neoliberals at the University of Chicago. These people believed that the public sphere should be eliminated, that business should be free to do as it wants, and almost all tax and social spending should be stopped.
demosincebirth
(12,541 posts)KakistocracyHater
(1,843 posts)do they know this? because if anyone were to think ahead & say, ok, now ALL the government is gone, no dept of labor, education, no epa-wth do think they have left, except a Third World nation?
dajoki
(10,678 posts)has not been changed in over fifty years!!
AllyCat
(16,197 posts)only with lower wage and the prices on everything the same or higher. But look on the bright side: you won't have a mortgage payment anymore at the shelter.
StarryNight
(71 posts)if it was, this country probably wouldn't be in as bad of shape as it is.
Skittles
(153,170 posts)and still hindering any kind of recovery
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Shucks, that's just the way it is. You can't expect society's greatest beneficiaries to contribute to the common good. They're barely squeaking by on 380 times your salary, what with all these crazy communist ideas about collecting taxes and building roads and schools and fire stations sucking them dry.