Freaking wow! Indian firm makes carbon capture breakthrough

[malaise]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jan/03/indian-firm-carbon-capture-breakthrough-carbonclean
<snip>
A breakthrough in the race to make useful products out of planet-heating CO2 emissions has been made in southern India.

A plant at the industrial port of Tuticorin is capturing CO2 from its own coal-powered boiler and using it to make soda ash – aka baking powder.

Crucially, the technology is running without subsidy, which is a major advance for carbon capture technology as for decades it has languished under high costs and lukewarm government support.

The firm behind the Tuticorin process says its chemicals will lock up 60,000 tonnes of CO2 a year and the technology is attracting interest from around the world.

Debate over carbon capture has mostly focused until now on carbon capture and storage (CCS), in which emissions are forced into underground rocks at great cost and no economic benefit. The Tuticorin plant is said to be the first industrial scale example of carbon capture and utilisation (CCU).

[Bayard]

1. Good on them!

The world desperately needs more environmental innovation. And more baking!

[malaise]

2. Well a lot of baking soda goes into roti

I love it.

[AgadorSparticus]

3. Good news!! Finally!

[hatrack]

4. We'll see - early

.

[mopinko]

5. wasnt there someone who was making it into gypsum?

was just trying to remember that the other day. quite a while ago.

[Orrex]

7. I find that term offensive.

[Moosepoop]

10. Why?

It's derived from the Greek word for "chalk" (gypsos).

[Orrex]

12. That's exactly what they want you to believe.

[Roy Rolling]

13. Really?

Who is "they"?

And what is it they "want you to believe"?

You totally lost me.

[jeffreyi]

17. ???

[NCTraveler]

19. +1

[progressoid]

29. I think you're supposed to call them 'travelers' now.

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. Huh????

[hunter]

21. Chinese wall board. It was a catastrophe.

It emitted acidic fumes that destroyed copper pipes and wiring. It wasn't good for humans either.

Much was installed following hurricane Katrina.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_drywall

[TexasBushwhacker]

6. Soda ash is washing soda, not baking powder

But other than that, it all sounds great!

[mopinko]

8. probably very valuable in india. they dont have detergent there like here.

they dont have all that animal fat to get rid of, so they dont have the kinds of soaps and detergents that we use here.
i saw the mumbia laundry that was in the movie slumdog millionaire. not a soap bubble to be found.
i think they do use washing soda, and i was told "herbs", probably just for fragrance.

so a very good solution for that particular economy, methinks.

[csziggy]

22. It also has a number of industrial uses

Soda ash, also known as sodium carbonate (Na2CO3), is an alkali chemical refined from the mineral trona or naturally occurring sodium carbonate-bearing brines (both referred to as natural soda ash), the mineral nahcolite (referred to as natural sodium bicarbonate, from which soda ash can be produced), or manufactured from one of several chemical processes (referred to as synthetic soda ash).

<SNIP>

Soda ash has a number of diversified uses that touch our lives every day. Glass manufacturing is the largest application for soda ash whether it is in the production of containers, fiberglass insulation, or flat glass for the housing, commercial building, and automotive industries.

Soda ash also is used to clean the air and soften water. As environmental concerns grow, demand increases for soda ash used in the removal of sulfur dioxide and hydrochloric acid from stack gases. Chemical producers use soda ash as an intermediate to manufacture products that sweeten soft drinks (corn sweeteners), relieve physical discomfort (sodium bicarbonate) and improve foods and toiletries (phosphates). Household detergents and paper products are a few other common examples of readily identifiable products using soda ash.
http://www.ima-na.org/?page=what_is_soda_ash

The original chemical leavener was pearlash:

Sometime in the 1780s an adventurous woman added potassium carbonate, or pearlash, to her dough. I’m ignorant as to how pearlash was produced historically, but the idea of using a lye-based chemical in cooking is an old one: everything from pretzels, to ramen, to hominy is processed with lye. Pearlash, combined with an acid like sour milk or citrus, produces a chemical reaction with a carbon dioxide by-product. Used in bakery batter, the result is little pockets of CO2 that makes baked goods textually light. Pearlash was only in use for a short time period, about 1780-1840. After that, Saleratus, which is chemically similar to baking soda, was introduced and more frequently used.
http://www.fourpoundsflour.com/the-history-dish-pearlash-the-first-chemical-leavening/

I did some research on this a few years back when I found a recipe in a family notebook that dated from between 1812 and 1837. The recipe, which ended up being interpreted for pecan cookies, called for pearlash or pearled ash but after reading the second link I went ahead and used baking soda. The recipe for my family cookies are somewhere in the Cooking & Baking Group here on DU.

[watoos]

9. Soda ash

next to sand is a main ingredient in making glass bottles.

[haele]

14. Also a fixitive for dyes and glazes back before petroleum-based chemical processes

If they can re-use it for basic household and crafting purposes, more power to them.

Next - let's figure out what to do with all the brine that desalination process leaves when trying to use ocean water for potable water. I'm hoping for some new battery or thermal use technology to come out of that.

Haele

[lunatica]

11. Kick for the good news

It's time to start looking for good news. There's plenty of the other kind.

[superpatriotman]

15. How long before our president-elect disparages this?

I know he's busy today, but c'mon!

[Orrex]

16. Maybe he'll take credit for it

This is the kind of life-saving, world-changing innovation that's possible under a Trump Presidency, etc.

[NickB79]

20. I'm surprised so many here are so easily fooled to think this is somehow a good thing

Coal companies love these articles, because gullible people see them and think "Gee, maybe we can keep burning coal AND save the climate at the same time!" It keeps public and political support for coal-fired generators high, and keeps coal in business.

The truth is far less rosy; it's even in the OP's article:

Carbonclean believes capturing usable CO2 can deal with perhaps 5-10% of the world’s emissions from coal.

It's like a heroin dealer adding ascorbic acid to their smack and saying "You get a full day's dose of Vitamin C every time you shoot up! It's not so bad after all!" No, it's still lethal, only a very tiny bit less lethal than before.

The only way we prevent full-on collapse of the planet's biosphere is to stop burning coal, cold turkey. We no longer have decades to wean ourselves off the shit with incremental steps like the ones pushed by CarbonClean, especially not with Agent Orange Shitgibbon in the White House today.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. Yeah, and how well are the lectures doing at getting humanity to stop using fossil fuels?

by my reckoning, not well at all.

Part of the very specific electoral reason Trump won is, the people in Coal Country like coal jobs. I can come up with a long list of reasons why that's not a good long-term strategy, but their response still is likely to be "yeah, but we still need the jobs"

I think it's time for a harm reduction approach to this particular addiction, at least until we get something like fusion power going.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

27. I was just going to ask what PERCENTAGE was captured.

60 thousand tons isn't too significant compared to the 30 BILLION tons of CO2 that humanity is releasing into the air each year, unless that particular plant is releasing a tiny portion in the first place.

Thanks for the answer.

[Motown_Johnny]

24. Interesting....

What is soda ash and what is it used for?

Sodium Carbonate (Soda Ash or Trona) Images: Description: Used in glass container manufacture, in fiber glass and specialty glass, also used in production of flat glass, in powdered detergents, in medicine, as a food additive, photography, cleaning and boiler compounds, pH control of water.



My first reaction was that the carbon would just be released when the soda ash was utilized. Now I am not so sure. If it is turned into glass then it could be captured for a very long time. Of course if the carbon is released while the glass is heated, then it isn't really being captured.

Now, if the soda ash produced by capturing carbon from the coal burning plant displaces other soda ash from other sources then it would again be reducing carbon emissions because the carbon from the other soda ash would not be being burned.

I know very little about this but will make a point of looking into it some more. Right now I am cautiously optimistic.


Thanks for posting.

[eppur_se_muova]

26. Adding soda ash to molten glass release CO2 quantitatively.

If used as a detergent, it could get converted to calcium carbonate. This is a common fate of carbonate in Nature.

[Motown_Johnny]

30. But if.....

.... carbon will be released in that process no matter what, will it lower the total amount of CO/2 released if the carbon is first captured from the burning of coal?


I suppose my real question is about the carbon from the current source of soda ash used in making glass and/or detergent (or any other use for this product).

This is why I am only cautiously optimistic. Will using this captured carbon really reduce the total amount of carbon released?

[malaise]

28. Same here - I know very little about this

I found it interesting

[eppur_se_muova]

25. There are a lot of important details missing from this account. How can it possibly work ?

Last edited Wed Jan 4, 2017, 10:59 PM - Edit history (2)

Simple mass balance requires that they're consuming some source of sodium, and some source of (effectively) oxide {ETA: or other base (reflecting edits in the original Guardian article)}. It's hard to see how they're doing this except by consuming sodium hydroxide {ETA: or carbonate}, which is made by electrolysis. This is too expensive a technique to be making a less valuable commodity like sodium carbonate -- like making sows' ears out of silk purses.

Most sodium carbonate is mined from dry lake beds or brine wells. Hard to compete with that. {Making NaHCO₃ from Na₂CO₃ and CO₂ is a well-known reaction. But we don't know if this is what's happening in this process, since so little detail is given.}

I have the feeling this will be another case of someone capturing CO₂ with a chemical which is manufactured by a process which produces CO₂. I've already seen another case of people sinking money into such an industrial process without understanding that they weren't accomplishing anything but moving CO₂ from one place to another. (The process involved absorbing CO₂ with Ca(OH)₂ -- which is made from CaO -- which is made by heating CaCO₃ until it gives off CO₂. So CO₂ is produced in one plant, and absorbed in another. No net effect, except for a lot of energy being consumed.)


ETA: The Guardian appears to have edited the original article -- now no mention of "soda ash", or sodium carbonate (Na₂CO₃); it's "baking soda", or sodium bicarbonate (sodium hydrogen carbonate, NaHCO₃) now, which may alter the analysis considerably. And still no clue what the secret new process is.