The Atlantic: It's Not the Economy, Stupid

[LonePirate]

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/511634/

A writer for The Atlantic spoke to several people in Elkhart, IN about the massive economic improvement the city/area has seen since the Great Recession. Needless to say, ignorance abounds, even if you believe a president has little actual influence over the nation's economy (and I believe you can find evidence for that viewpoint). Here's a sample of the head-shaking sentiments from the article.

But despite the decisions that the Obama administration made that might have helped Elkhart, many people here have a strong dislike of Obama, who presided over an economic recovery in which the unemployment rate fell nationally to 4.6 percent from a high of 10 percent in October 2009. They say it’s not Obama who is responsible for the city or the country’s economic progress, and furthermore, that the economy won’t truly start to improve until President-elect Donald Trump takes office.

[HughBeaumont]

1. It's not the biggest DURRRRR that they want the WHITE House to be just that.

Always has been the case. They can deny it until the cows come home, but it doesn't change shit.

I think deep down, they're still crossing their fingers, stuck in 2008, hoping Dubya will somehow pull them out of the Great Recession. Admitting error is a cardinal sin in the RepubliCONNED world.

[eniwetok]

2. US econony still on life supports....

Sorry, I can't agree that the economy is in good shape... it's largely on life supports... with 400 billion deficits, near zero interests, and low energy costs... and this is the best it can do?

AND... there are other issues the cheerleaders are ignoring... the FED now has lost one of its key weapons in stimulating the economy... the ability to lower interest rates... and soon interest on the debt may drastically increase to 700+ billion by 2025. In contrast we only spend about 25 billion on NASA.

[brush]

6. Stop drinking the kool-aid. If W's policies had continued we'd be beyond the Great Depression

[eniwetok]

10. WTF are you babbling about... OBAMA bought into many neolib ideas

The person drinking the Kool Aid ain't I.

I've argued elsewhere that the economy isn't better shape because...

It was OBAMA who refused to truly reform Wall St by jailing the perps, breaking Wall St's political power, and reforming it so it was involved in productive work instead of pointless speculation.

It was OBAMA that kept pushing free trade which has further deindustrialized our economy and undercut the labor movement.

It was OBAMA that made permanent most of Bush's irresponsible tax cuts.

Your retraction is noted even if never offered.

[eniwetok]

11. now do you have an actual substantive argument to make beside your strawman

So exactly what in my post was in error?

[brush]

20. Read post #15, and again, stop drinking the repug kool-aid

[eniwetok]

31. I ask AGAIN... where was anything in my post wrong?

Are you that defensive that if I merely ask for someone to flesh out a claim that makes me a GOPer? Economically I'M LEFT OF FDR DEMs.

Now I ask again... what was wrong with what I wrote? And put up or shut up and retract... WHERE DID I GIVE OBAMA ZERO CREDIT.

So in your book if I merely look at the fact the economy is getting THREE big economic infusions that are propping it up... then I'm denying any credit to Obama? Of course the economy's doing better than 09. Duh. That doesn't change the fact. It's not like we have a good economy and tax rates sufficient to not run a deficit. It's not as if we have a good economy that can stand normal interest rates. And it's not that we have an economy that can stand $70-80 oil. But then when we hollow out an economy so we don't have to meet our own industrial needs... we should expect it to be weak.

I personally think we're still in trouble and I don't like the debt/interest trends or the fact the FED lost a key tool in its arsenal. And F**k you if you think that's GOP talk. The GOP never took ANY responsibility for destroying the economy and they want to do it all over again on steroids. Dems need to get over the idea that neolib ideas that destroyed the economy can also save it.

[LonePirate]

22. Where do I begin?

The ACA contained new taxes on high income earners. Their tax rates now are higher than when Obama arrived in office in January 2009.

Jailing Wall Streeters - which I agree should have occurred - would not have reined in Wall Street abuses. We jail plenty of people who bring illegal drugs into this country but that certainly hasn't curbed the drug trade. As long as there is a demand for shady Wall Street practices to make a quick buck, Wall Street will provide ways to meet that demand.

Deindustrialization started long before Obama arrived in office and there is nothing his successor can do to stop it - even if he wanted to stop it. For decades, the US economy has been moving to a more mechanized economy with large information and service sectors. We manufacture more goods today than ever before - we just do it with far fewer workers. That trend will continue for the foreseeable future which no president can slow, let alone stop.

If you want to rail against neo-liberalism (in favor of socialism?), at least bring some facts to the table.

[eniwetok]

25. where did I say...

The ACA contained new taxes on high income earners. Their tax rates now are higher than when Obama arrived in office in January 2009.


I'm well aware of that which is why I was deliberate in my phrasing...

It was OBAMA that made permanent MOST of Bush's irresponsible tax cuts.


But the bottom line was ALL of the Bush tax cuts were irresponsible because they prevented any debt paydown. So when Obama made most permanent except those on incomes about 250k... he was buying into a right wing idea that we should have tax cuts even if we were 5-6 trillion deeper in debt than in 2000... and massive deficits were in the foreseeable future. The right doesn't care if these tax cuts are largely "funded" with money we're stealing from our kids and grandkids. I would have thought that Dems would be trying to get out of the Starve The Beast trap. Obama should have phased those higher rates back in as the recession eased and the economy rebounded. Now there's no sunset clause. We are stuck with these irresponsibly low rates... and the Tax Cut Psychos on the right want to go lower.

[RBInMaine]

37. You sound like a purist Stein/Nader voter. Please, allow in some measure of political reality.

While Obama and Dems could have fought harder and should have moved away from corporate donor long ago, on balance Oabma and Dems fought for a progressive agenda and got some good pieces enacted. I think the ACA should have go further, but in many ways it was certainly a progressive move. The same with tax cuts weighted largely to the middle and working classes, job-expanding tax credits, etc. Much more bottom up middle class economics than Republican trickle down. Perfect? No. Progressive? Yes. Enough with the non-reality purity.

[eniwetok]

44. there's always more than one political reality.

Reality 1: Obama didn't have to run on preserving most of the irresponsible Bush tax cuts.
Reality 2: Even before the crash the Bush tax cuts were hemorrhaging revenue. In constant dollars individual income tax receipts NEVER exceed Clinton last year in ANY of Bush's 8 years.
Reality 3: Bush added close to 6 trillion more in debt. And if debt was an issue in the 2000 election... it didn't magically go away when the debt grew. What happened is Dem partisans switched their positions because they believed Obama was socking it to the rich. I'm still looking at debt... and NO, not because the GOP whines about it. But because it's theft from future tax payers and the interest we pay sickens me. I believe each generation should pay it's own bills. That's not a GOP position. They want monumental debt to use as a pretense to slash the safety net... and if it ever is to be paid down, it will be after the GOP pushes the tax burden down so the working and middle class get less service AND pay more on debt. The GOP could not care less if we piss away 700 billion on interest as long as that money isn't used to help the American People.

And BTW, I've never said Obama didn't accomplish anything. Saving the economy and ACA were big accomplishments. But I tend to look less at policy but more how his priorities or omissions have political and economic effects in the future. He was a big disappointment on Wall St and taxes. I believe he's set the US up for another crash and he's helped the GOP's starve the beast strategy. And let's not forget that he also didn't push the Dems to abolish the EC or rebuild the labor movement.

[ismnotwasm]

45. WTF?

You seem interestingly informed. Describe the exact process on how one goes about abolishing the EC--to start

[eniwetok]

47. strategies

Working within Art 5 there are two acceptable ways... the long drawn out 50, maybe 100 year strategy, working within a ridiculous antidemocratic formula where in the end states with as little as 4% of the population can block any reform. There's the possibility of states calling for a constitutional convention... but again, states with as little as 4% of the population can block any reform.

There's the drastic way, and as I've suggested elsewhere that CA could threaten secession unless there were constitutional reforms. The leverage CA would have might break the roadblock in getting an amendment out of Congress... and let's not forget CA contributes much of its wealth to red beggar states.

Either way... if one is playing the long game then politicians like Obama have moral authority to discuss such issues like the moral legitimacy of government... and how the time for the EC to be abolished has come. But we NEVER see Dems pushing to make the system more democratic even when elections are stolen from them... and the antidemocratic nature of the system works against them. So what if the FDR Dems in the 30's had started that 50-100 year strategy? When is it time to start laying the foundation for future reform? Leave it to Dems, it's never. They can't think past the next presidential election and want to believe they don't have to do much... demographics will doom the GOP.

It's a naive hope.

[eniwetok]

28. on wall street

"Jailing Wall Streeters - which I agree should have occurred - would not have reined in Wall Street abuses. We jail plenty of people who bring illegal drugs into this country but that certainly hasn't curbed the drug trade. As long as there is a demand for shady Wall Street practices to make a quick buck, Wall Street will provide ways to meet that demand. "

Sure jailing Wall St perps ALONE would not reign in Wall St abuses. It's a strawman to suggest otherwise. But let's compare FDR to Obama. FDR signed Wall St reforms into law within 90 days. It took 18 MONTHS for the Dems to get off their ass with Dodd Frank and even then it was a weak bill. In the mean time Obama was on record telling Wall St perps back in March 09 he was the only thing between them and the people with the pitchforks (source: Confidence Men by Ron Suskind) He obviously did not push for prosecutions. He was running out the clock until the people's anger died down. Then there are issues of how Obama had the chance of a lifetime to break the back of Wall St's political power... and he refused to even try... or how he could have pushed to get speculators out of the commodity markets... speculators that brought us $147 oil. I had high hopes for Obama... and in this regard I will eternally be pissed off.

[eniwetok]

30. on deindustrialization

"Deindustrialization started long before Obama arrived in office and there is nothing his successor can do to stop it - even if he wanted to stop it. For decades, the US economy has been moving to a more mechanized economy with large information and service sectors. We manufacture more goods today than ever before - we just do it with far fewer workers. That trend will continue for the foreseeable future which no president can slow, let alone stop.

Sure deindustrialization began before Obama... and so what? You're conflating inevitable technological progress with deliberate government policy to undermine US based manufacturing by leaving the US wide open to unfair competition with nations that don't share the overhead we place on US businesses... overhead like higher wages, limited hours, overtime, social insurance like OASI, Medicare, UI, and Workers Comp. Overhead like better pollution and worker safety measures... etc. Free trade drove a stake into the heart of the US labor movement... and Obama had to know that.

Sensing a pattern here yet? Bailing out Wall St... free trade... shafting labor, irresponsibly low tax rates....

Yup there's NO neo-lib or right wing ideas anywhere in that mix, is there!

Jesus... it's well know Obama is a corporate Dem... and even after 8 years you're oblivious to this fact?

[rufus dog]

15. Sit back and fucking think for a minute

Read the article, Elkhart, IN was deeply in the shitter in 2008. RV sales plummeted. The stimulus kept auto suppliers alive in the region, the economy improved, and jobs came back at an amazingly fast rate. This article is about Elkhart, IN and the impact Obama had on the region, AND THE IGNORANT MOTHER FUCKERS GIVE HIM ZERO CREDIT. GET IT!!!!!

FFS!

[RBInMaine]

38. Obama and Dems need to TOUT THEIR GOD DAMNED ACHIEVEMENTS BIGTIME, and they DON'T!!!!

People can't know the truth if you don't GO THERE and TELL them the truth!! Dems can't form a clear, consistent, and CONSTANT message to save their souls. SHOW UP in places like that and TELL them CLEAR and POINT BLANK to their FACES what the reality is. Dem messaging SUCKS!!! Get it FIXED! NOW!

[Roy Rolling]

16. "The economy"

Government deficits and interest rate meddling are certainly harmful, but just one measurement of "the economy". It sounds like you and your detractors just have different, non-specific definitions.

Some aspects are healthy, some not. But the government now will play a disruptive role, thinking the GOP knows better on all things financial. But it is the opposite. The government role may now be pivotal. Their first priority? Cut the top corporate rate from 35% to 15%. Yeah, that's what their nazi supporters voted for.

It's like trying to have a picnic on the rim of a volcano, and the biggest concern is the pesky ants.

[uponit7771]

3. PPP - 67% of Trump voters say that unemployment is higher now

[Mariana]

41. And if you tell them otherwise

they just refuse to believe you. No matter how compelling the evidence, they'll find a way to dismiss it.

[uponit7771]

43. YES!!! Its like they're on another planet !!

[yallerdawg]

4. In post-truth America...

I guess we just have to hope our democratic form of government can withstand "democracy."

Reeducation camps and gulags are out of the question - aren't they?

[eniwetok]

14. rephrasing....

It's not whether our nation can withstand "democracy", it's whether we can survive our own ANTI-democratic system. By democratic standards Trump was REJECTED. He was installed by a mindless, ANTI-democratic vote rigging scheme originally designed to magnify the power of whites in slaves states.

[yallerdawg]

18. Well, sure - we don't like the rules when we lose.

Just like in 2000, when we fought after that to change them. Gore won popular vote, right?

But straight 'majority rule' can be tricky, too.

Remember when California tossed out gay marriage (Prop 8)?

What I'm saying is, people don't always agree with us - and facts may have nothing to do with it.

Almost 63,000,000 voted for 'that guy.' Did facts matter?

[eniwetok]

23. hey sport... I know the system...

Just don't make any claims that somehow "democracy" is to blame in Trump's election. I just tire of people who are pushing the frame that the "voters" are telling us X, Y, or Z. The only message the real voters sent is, in their wisdom, they REJECTED Trump by nearly 3 million vote.

But if you're defending elections where the election loser has some right to win... then please just say so. You're sending too many mixed messages.

[yallerdawg]

24. You're missing the whole point...

but that's a 'commenters' prerogative.

[eniwetok]

33. I'm still waiting for a coherent point

And so... what was it?

[moda253]

35. It is a tiring stupid game you play

You keep saying that you are waiting for an argument that you find valid.

Fucking yawnfest boring ass shit.

[eniwetok]

46. I know... how horrible to ask someone to make an intelligent argument

And it's clear it'd be pointless to ever expect you to make one. Come to think of it, you're not even clever enough to come up with some decent ad hominems.

[lunasun]

5. Unemployment went from 22% in 09 to now 3.9% in this town ........guess they didn't notice

[Thav]

9. They'll say

this happened in spite of Obama, not because.

[eniwetok]

12. what town?

And what's your source?

[rufus dog]

17. READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE

At this point you are just looking ignorant.

[eniwetok]

32. you're correct... I was careless

You're correct I was careless. My first post to this thread, which I STAND BY... was a general point that the recovery is weak, not because some numbers aren't high... but because the economy is being propped up by three large economic infusions.

And I didn't make the connection when someone wrote: Unemployment went from 22% in 09 to now 3.9% in this town ........guess they didn't notice I thought the poster was talking about their own home town and didn't make the connection to the article. I'll chalk that up again to skimming.

My apologies.

[lunasun]

19. If you read the OP it is about Elkhart, Indiana that is the town. There is a link in the OP

I usually try to look at the link in postings . This one is from the Atlantic. In the link
in the second paragraph
are the unemployment economic stats

My source is the OP provided link from a valid news source founded in 1850 about a real town




This city exemplifies the economic recovery the country has experienced since the Great Recession ended. Elkhart’s unemployment rate, which had reached a high of 22 percent in March of 2009, is now at 3.9 percent. Hiring signs dot the doors of the Wal-Mart, the McDonald’s, and the Long John Silver’s. The RV industry makes 65 percent of its vehicles in Elkhart, and the industry is producing a record number of vehicles, which is creating a lot of jobs in this frosty town in northern Indiana.

“America’s economy is not just better than it was eight years ago--it is the strongest, most durable economy in the world,” President Obama said during a visit to Elkhart in June, in which he touted the economic recovery. (Elkhart was also the first place outside Washington he visited as president, in 2009.) “Elkhart would not have come this far--if we hadn’t made a series of smart decisions, my administration, a cooperative Congress--decisions we made together early on.”

[n2doc]

7. Propaganda works

Listen to any AM radio station and all you hear is how bad it is under Obama, and how wonderful it will be under drumph. Same with most so-called news.

Unless the Democrats are united in fighting this propaganda, they stand no chance of winning. People could be all living in boxes and they will still believe what the magic voice tells them on the tube.

[eniwetok]

13. How do Dems to raise class consciousness

The Dems really need to push economic issues to raise class consciousness because class issues can often trump identity politics... or put another way, class IS an identity. Once people identify more with their economic interests... they'll be inoculated and see through this bullshit.

[underpants]

29. They had to

Things were going to improve and if the masses had any thought that Obama was not actually a DISASTER there would be no way to re-establish the Republican brand.

The more things improved the more the voices on the dashboard screamed DISASTER.

[RBInMaine]

39. Dems do a PIECE OF SHIT job with COMMUNICATION! Tell the rich donors to invest in progressive radio!

[Baitball Blogger]

8. Maybe they're still thinking of the good ole days.

Last edited Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:36 PM - Edit history (1)

You know, when we had a three trillion dollar surplus in our budget that they could pillage and when Wall Street went on a drunk with deregulation. Yeah, the good ole days.

[lunasun]

21. The hood old days is when very little Hispanics were in Elkhart. Some people esp immigrants actually

relocate to where job growth is to find a job
Their growing communities are actually fueling retail and small business growth and some don't like that kind of economic growth you know
These are legal immigrants creating legal small business and qualifying for legal jobs
http://indianaeconomicdigest.com/main.asp?SectionID=31&subsectionID=300&articleID=84077
http://indianaeconomicdigest.com/Main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=135&ArticleID=84339

http://www.elkharttruth.com/news/politics/Indiana-Buzz/2014/07/29/Elkhart-Co-Hispanics-motoring-growth-here-while-the-non-Hispanic-white-population-holds-steady.html

[elleng]

26. Oh crap!

Gotta get outta here!
(for coffee and. Not your fault, pirate. )

[LonePirate]

27. I'm honored that a respected and knowledgeable poster like you would even visit one of my threads.

Take care!

[elleng]

40. Thanks. Back now!

[malaise]

34. Well M$Greedia has o intentioon of presenting the objective facts

Obama must not be celebrated

[LonePirate]

36. It wouldn't matter much if they did present the facts because many people wouldn't believe it.

[Skittles]

42. RACIST TRUMP VOTERS

IMAGINE THAT