Fast & Furious proves it's treason to sell weapons to bad guys, unless...

[ProfessionalLeftist]

Tweeted by: https://twitter.com/JohnFugelsang

[TBMASE]

1. So it's okay NOW

because Reagan did it in the 80's?

[notadmblnd]

2. Well I didn't see you here complaining when bush was doing it in 2006

Nor have I seen you here complaining about the 4000 + American soldiers killed in Iraq that was based on a lie. Saddam had nothing to do with 911 nor did he have any WMDs. All those kids died for nothing but corporate profits and not once did I see you here making so much as a peep.

Now you got your panties in a wad because some Arizona AG and the ATF decided to continue the program that bush and his AG Mulcasy started- and because the Mexicans didn't keep their end of the bargain, weapons actually got through to a bad guy and one American ended up dead. That's what you are upset about?

[Dokkie]

3. Yea, lets forget the 1000s

of Mexicans killed and god knows how many more are being terrorized right now by the stupid policy. This is what happens when you continue Bush's drug war policies, it fucking explodes in your face and now you are left with the fall out.

[TBMASE]

5. yep. There's no need to cover for Bush now

air this shit for all the world to see

[Dokkie]

8. If it was left to me

I say Holder take the fall for the stupid policy. Sacrifice yourself for the good of the country, take the all blame, apologize and resign. But we see both side playing politics with this issue, the democrats are 100% behind him even though the scheme resulted in the death of innocent people and the republicans some who supported and voted for the program under Bush have all of a sudden all found Jesus on the issue of gun running.

No wonder the favorability ratings for congress is in the toilet. Both sides will defend criminal behavior as long as their side is the one being charged.

[notadmblnd]

7. so you are admitting you are a republican?

or just not a Democrat?

[Dokkie]

10. what does that even mean?

Are you only concerned about the death of white people? You do know Mexican drug gangs are terrorizing Mexican cities with their high powered guns? And you do know that the fast and furious operation provided known Mexican gangs with said firearms.

Srry But this democrat is no partisan, I call it like I see it and the way I see it, the Obama administration got burned real bad for continuing another idiotic policy from the Bush administration.

[TBMASE]

11. I've seen this a lot since yesterday

if you want people held accountable for what happened you must be a republican.
If you dont' mindlessly support Holder then you must be a republican. If you don't agree with Obama's use of EP on this, you must be a republican.

I thought we were going to be BETTER than the republicans, which meant being transparent and not hiding this kind of stuff from the public.

[notadmblnd]

12. You said "this is what you get when you continue bushes policies"

not this is "what we get......" We are democrats here, by using the word you instead of we, you separated yourself from democrats as if you are not one. That is why I asked.

Now you are trying to tell me that mexican drug gangs are targeting cities randomly? Are you sure the targets are cities and not rival gang members? It is sad, but innocents often get caught in the cross-fire. However, I have never seen you here worried about the brown skinned innocents that have died in Iraq. I think your outrage is fake or you would have been making noise about brown skinned innocents being killed long before now.

[TBMASE]

17. You're making excuses

our government made sure guns were supplied and those guns, were used to murder people.

[notadmblnd]

18. That pretty much happens all over the world

All the time and people are killed by them. The US has sold weapons to India, Saudi Arabia, Israel to name a few. Israel is using their weapons to kill Palistinians, they're brown. I haven't seen you worried about that? India has used their weapons to kill Pakistanis, Haven't seen your worry over that either.

The sale of Arms is the United States biggest export, yet I have never seen you voice your concern over all the innocents killed with those weapons. Frankly, I just find it suspicious that you come here to express your outrage over this particular incident.

Call them excuses if you like, but I really do not think your concern is over the US government selling arms or brown skinned people being killed.

[TBMASE]

20. Now you want to pretend that Military sales are the same as guns that go to drug cartels

aided by the Law Enforcement Org that's supposed to prevent it.

You can think what you'd like, you'll do whatver you have to in order to make excuses for the actions of our government and the attempts to keep it hidden from the public.

I didn't realize Obama was just going to be another Bush

[notadmblnd]

25. Obviously it is not hidden from public

Killing is killing as far as I can see. Does it really matter if it is gangsters killing gangsters and innocents or armies killing each other and innocents?

You'll do whatever you have to in order to keep your panties in a bunch over this one issue. Your double standards and hypocracy is showing.

[TBMASE]

27. What double standard?

Obama promised to be different than Bush. Should he not live up to that standard or should we expect him to be no better than the man he replaced.

Our government armed drug gangs. There's no excuse for that.

[notadmblnd]

50. The fact that you've never come here before to experess your concern about who got guns or who was

.killed by them, yet your extreme outrage over this leads me to believe your agenda is not seeking the truth but pushing a republican meme.

BTW, the government didn't sell the guns to the cartels. Private dealers sold the guns to people who obtained them for the cartels. Both governments Mexican and American were supposed to work together to intercept them. This did not happen.


The fact that Issa is not interested in speaking with the AZ AG nor Officials of the ATF or any other subordinate of the US AG tells me that Issa's agenda is not finding the truth but creating a scandal that people will become outraged about thereby subverting the reelection of Obama. The other thing is, that one would have to be a moron to believe the conspiracy theory of the subplot in all of this.

I also believe this is an attempt to shut Holder down for going after Gov Rick Scott and his little illegal voter purge program (again a big issue that you have expressed no outrage about here). So go ahead and pretend that you are suddenly concerned that people are being killed by guns that our government allowed bad people to get their hands on. I know it's BS and so do you.

[TBMASE]

59. It's only a republican meme when our government does something like this?

Private dealers WORKING WITH THE ATF, these weren't some unknown dealers doing this. They were buys sanctioned by our government who then watched those weapons go across the border to mexico.

It's no different than our government handing them the guns.

Our government actively helped drug gangs get US weapons. It's WRONG.

[notadmblnd]

68. And Obama's DOJ just happens to be the first that's done anything WRONG that bothers you.

All the others wern't important enough to come here and post about. ohhhh, but this one... it really gets your goat. Yeah, I get it.

[TBMASE]

72. wait, wait, wait....you're saying that we shouldn't expect this administration

to be better than the last one?

You're no better than some Freeper who made excuses for Bush

[notadmblnd]

79. the post was about you and your concern or lack of it in the past

But thanks for the name calling.

[TBMASE]

82. Doesn't occur to you that I wasn't a member while Bush was president, huh?

And I call them as I see them.

You're making excuses, just like every RW Hack did while Bush was in office. Always an excuse about how Clinton did this or Democrats did that. No Accountability, just excuses

[notadmblnd]

84. Now you're making shit up in your head

I have not made one excuse for Holder or the admin. I've questioned you and your motives for expressing your outrage here after all the outragousness that has gone on in the past.

And just because you recently arrived here,doesn't mean you can't currently express your outrage for things that occured in the past. In fact when I've brought things up that have occurred in the past in this current thread, you've pretty much ignored them and made your own excuses.

But keep calling me names, it's ok. I know that's what some people need to resort to when they have no argument left.

[Kingofalldems]

92. You are not fooling me

[sabrina 1]

80. Well, I took that to mean 'politicians'. I'm glad s/he did not say 'we' because

most of us vehemently opposed all of Bush's policies, I can't think of one, though there probably are one or two somewhere, I ever supported. And when we worked so hard to remove Republicans from office, we BEGGED Democrats to start prosecuting them, to haul the criminals before the public and expose their lies and crimes.e

We expected to see most of Bush's policies ended. Because we knew if Democrats did not move to end them, it would not be long before they owned them. It was simple logic.


Then, I remember Karl Rove refusing to respond to Congressional Subpoenas and we, Democrats, begging once again for Congress to send the Federal Marshals out to arrest him.

But, we were told we were naive, if we started prosecuting Republican criminals, they might retaliate when they got the chance.

We said 'they will do that regardless, they don't need any excuses' etc. etc.

So to have said 'we' would have been incorrect. 'You' to me means the geniuses in power who make these decisions. The people are far wiser, but they don't have a say.

[TBMASE]

4. Ummm

I want the people involved to held accountable, going back to the Bush administration. I want this fully investigated.
Our government allowed weapons to be purchased illegally and cross the border illegally. I don't want to hear about how the mexican's dropped the ball, this was OUR government who did this. I want full disclosure of who did what and who knew about it and I want them held accountable. They shouldn't be in a position of authority today if they were involved.

[notadmblnd]

6. Well if Issa had ever bothered to call the AZ AG and the ATF as witnesses,

you may have found that out. But no, in his quest to burn a member of Obama's administration in a weak attempt to create a political scandal, he couldn't be bothered to seek the truth by calling witnesses who actually know exactly who is responsible.

This is just the right-wing faux outrage of the day. Republicans could give 2 shits about the thousands that have died. If they did, they would be contacting their republican congress people and demanding them to call those closest to the case in order to get to the truth.

[TBMASE]

9. If there's nothing there to burn Holder, what's the issue?

John Dodson, Olindo James Casa, Lawrence Alt and Peter Forceilli are all ATF Agents who were involved in the program and all 4 testified before the committee.
It was their testimony that made the DOJ admit there was a Gun Walking program after it had been initially denied.

[notadmblnd]

13. And one of them (not one of the 4 you named) testified that the higher ups at the

DOJ didn't know about it initially or did that little fact just escape you mind?

On edit: front line agents? You are telling me that they are in direct communication with those in Washington? I don't know, but generally, there is a chain of command and the little guys aren't usually privy to information in regards to decisions made by higher ups. Issa needed to speak to the HEAD of the ATF both in Washington and Arizona along with the Arizona AG. The little guys usually only know what the bigger guys want them to know, not the other way around.

I understand those four men had concerns and took them to congress, but Issa never asked their bosses for answers. So don't toss me names of the little players and sell me the "they're the authorities" meme on this operation.

[TBMASE]

16. Look, the DOJ denied there was a program

Holder claimed, incorrectly, that he hadn't heard of the program. The DOJ has now retracted the claim that Mukasey knew about the program in 2008/2009

This should be an open investigation let the chips fall where they may. We have a president who promised transparency and change in the way things were done in Washington. He should live up to the standard he promised. If it means Holder goes, then Holder goes.

The Bush administration started the whole thing but the program blew up on Obama's watch. No Excuses, just the truth

[notadmblnd]

19. Are you sure Holder denied this personally?

Simple yes or no question?

[TBMASE]

21. yes, he denied it personally under oath

he was forced to admit the truth later when documents showed he was getting weekly briefing memos

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html

[notadmblnd]

22. What? they sat on him till he cried uncle?

I'm not finding any links that claim he admitted to lying about F&F to congress. He did admit that F&F was a mistake, but no info that he admitted that he lied to congress. Please provide your link.

[TBMASE]

28. I provided you with a link

[Aerows]

30. Issa voted yes to fund it

And now is claiming ignorance and being appalled by it.

Do you vote yes for things you don't endorse? All of this is such public domain I don't need to provide you with a link, I merely can ask you to use Google.

It's far too late to act sanctimonious now.

[notadmblnd]

57. I see, you edited your post to provide the link after I requested it

[TBMASE]

62. only if the time stamp lies

[4th law of robotics]

15. Wait . . so because Bush did it that means it's ok?

We're looking to Bush now for defining acceptable behaviors of a president?

/also wasn't Obama supposed to be . . . I dunno. . . different?

[Aerows]

31. Issa voted to fund it

That says plenty, and if you can think up a defense for it, please offer it. To me, it says he endorsed the program. If he didn't, he could have voted NO.

[TBMASE]

36. Then why is the Obama administration protecting him

and anyone else who was involved?

Transparency in government is what we were promised, not the same old Republican tactics of hiding the truth from the American people when our government does something wrong

[Aerows]

41. It's a fishing expedition

right before the election. Nobody with a brain sees it as anything but a fishing expedition. Issa knew all of this for years, but is trotting it out now to try to make a stink.

[TBMASE]

44. we armed drug cartels

it already stinks.

[Aerows]

46. Bush Started it

Obama ended it.

Don't know what is so difficult for you about that.

[TBMASE]

67. Obama has already said he knew nothing about it

so how did he "end it"

It ended after a border agent was murdered and a whistle blower came forward

[notadmblnd]

70. Eric Holder ended it.

Not Obama. Try again.

[TBMASE]

71. Eric Holder testified he hadn't heard of the program

until April, 4 months after it ended.

[4th law of robotics]

90. I don't doubt the timing is political

but there is still a pretty big fuck-up.

They aren't making this up.

If the president spent the last 3 years sneaking out at night and murdering homeless people the problem wouldn't be that his opponents brought it up at an inopportune time. It would be all those murdered homeless people. At best you can prove that the people trying to get him don't like him and are politicians . . . well . . . yeah. That doesn't mean he is in the clear.

[4th law of robotics]

89. The president had the ultimate authority on it

ergo the guy who voted to fund it cannot be considered *more* culpable than the guy who had the final say.

[baldguy]

26. If you're looking for someone to blame during this Republican witch hunt

It certainly isn't the guy that stopped the program as soon as he found out about it.

And the people who are foaming at the mouth about this - shedding crocodile tears for all the Mexicans killed - have nothing at all to say about by the guns that kill 30,000 Americans each year & injure 100,000 Americans injured each year.

[TBMASE]

32. As soon as he found out about it?

It took the death of a federal agent and a whistleblower to come forward to Senator Grassly before it was halted in 2011. And Holder, according to documents, was getting regular briefings going back to 2010

We're talking about the US Government making sure that US guns were sent over the border to drug cartels

[Aerows]

52. Let's praise Senator Grassly (R)

For making hay out of this situation. God Bless Republicans for bringing to light anything that happened under a Democratic administration and linking it to President Obama, who ended the program.

We can't blame Issa, who voted to fund this shit, and George Bush who started this shit, because well, that wouldn't be right. It's the fault of Democratic party leaders, and Democratic party leaders alone, am I right?

[Aerows]

29. It was started under George W. Bush

If you want to take it up with the person that started it, take it up with Republicans.

[TBMASE]

33. How about we take it up with everyone involved?

[Aerows]

35. How about we discuss how Issa voted to fund it

and is now crying foul on a program he voted to fund because it is now under a Democratic President?

If you don't see that as political bullshit, I can't help you. I detest Holder, and wish Obama would fire his ass, but with this coming to light - that Issa voted to fund this program - you can't pretend he is doing anything but juggling politics and selective animosity here.

[TBMASE]

37. Okay...then make all the information available in a public hearing

Obama promised us transparency, let's have it.

[Aerows]

39. How about we charge Issa

With selecting to fund a program that he thought was unworthy. That's dereliction of duty, if true.

We know that will never happen, just as you know they aren't going to release enough documents for the GOP to go on a fishing expedition on this one.

[TBMASE]

42. In otherwords, it's the same Bullshit we got from Bush

no change, no transparency just lies and coverups as usual

[Aerows]

45. In other words

It's partisan horse crap, and you are trying to make something of something Issa knew for YEARS, the Obama administration ENDED, and the Bush Administration STARTED.

One STARTS.

The other ENDS.

I guess that is the same to you?

[TBMASE]

49. It ENDED after an ATF agent blew the whistle

after a border agent was killed with guns that were supplied by our government.

I don't care who started it, I care that the facts are known and the people involved are held accountable

[Aerows]

54. Who is President of the United States?

If you want to blame Obama, you need to blame Bush under whose reign this started, and give credit that it ended under Obama.

[TBMASE]

55. I'm not blaming Obama, he has already said he learned about it on the news AFTER IT WAS OVER

I want the people who cooked up this hairbrained scheme to be held accountable.

[Aerows]

58. BAFTE

Look there. That's where this bullshit started. Eric Holder, Obama and anybody else did not cook this crap up. It was so stupid that anyone with a fifth grade education could see it would be a disaster. But don't be acting like Issa is some saint for bringing it to light since he voted to fund it.

[TBMASE]

61. Where did I defend ISSA or anyone else for that matter?

Anyone who voted to fund it is to blame, anyone who authorized the sales is to blame anyone who told the agents not to stop the guns is to blame.

[Aerows]

65. Selective outrage n/t

[TBMASE]

76. What selective outrage? Our government armed drug cartels

it's wrong

[TheKentuckian]

88. Did Holder knowingly operate this program or not?

All the rest of it is spin. Why would we flip on the issue? Wrong doesn't become right when it is your guy.

[notadmblnd]

73. it kills me- how suddenly this guy (TBMASE) cares

Never gave a shit about guns or who got killed before, but now it's Obamas administration, he care soooooo much.

[TBMASE]

75. You should find a mirror and ask yourself

why you're making the same excuses we heard from republicans during the Bush years

[notadmblnd]

85. Suddenly you're an expert on the bush years.

And you still spell his name with a capital b. Now, isn't that special?

[Aerows]

78. I put him on ignore

This thread is so much tidier. I tried to enlighten him, but alas, he's clearly a republican troll and unable to grasp simple facts.

[notadmblnd]

86. Those were my suspicions

one of those, my shit doesn't stink kind of people. However, his farts give him away.

[freshwest]

91. Yup, why bother. Life is too short.

[4th law of robotics]

14. I could see it being different if Iran then used those weapons to kill Americans

as happened in fast and furious.

[Aerows]

24. And if a politician voted to fund that program?

As Issa did? Uh...isn't that a little hypocritical?

Knowing full well what it entailed, mind you.

[Aerows]

23. And you vote YES on funding it in 2008.

Then it is perfectly okay.

Excuse me if I'm stupid, but doesn't voting "yes" on funding a bill mean you support the program? I mean, come on, I might not be a professional on Capitol Hill, but I would think that voting yes for funding a program means you support the goals of said program.

Just wondering when a politician is going to bring that up and discuss it.

[TBMASE]

34. How about we hold everyone involved accountable, regardless of party

if the republicans are to blame, why is Obama protecting them?

[Aerows]

38. I used to ask the same questions

Then I discovered that the only people that ever get held accountable are Democrats and Republicans walk free.

You want an exchange? Put Cheney and Bush on trial for treason and war crimes. This isn't even Clinton got a BJ, yet Republicans want to elevate it to that standard when their OWN voted to fund it. I detest Holder because he didn't indict Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney for war crimes, and always will. This? It's bullshit to pressure him and take up his time instead of preventing voter suppression.

[TBMASE]

40. In otherwords, we should accept the same Bullshit we got from other administrations

instead of the open and transparent government we were promised.

This isn't about the War, it's not about Clinton getting a BJ. Our government purposely allowed guns to arm drug gangs in mexico. Now, either people are held accountable for their role or we're no better than the people we complain about

[Aerows]

43. This is a fishing expedition

Period.

I can criticize Obama on plenty of things, but this isn't one of them, and if you were a Democrat, you wouldn't either. This is grasping at straws because Romney's poll numbers suck. Issa knew all of this for 3 years, and picked now to make it "known".

It was started under the Bush administration.

This is partisan horse hockey by Republicans to cover for the fact that more and more it is revealed that Romney is a bullying asshat.

[TBMASE]

47. I'm not a Democrat because I expect standards?

Our government armed drug cartels, there shouldn't be excuses made, there shouldn't be coverups.

[Aerows]

48. Obama ended this

What the hell else do you want?

[TBMASE]

51. No, Obama didn't end it

it was ended after a whistleblower came forward and after a border agent was killed with the guns we supplied to drug cartels

I want the transparency we were promised. When we do something wrong, I want people held accountable

[Aerows]

53. Who is President of the United States?

Simple question.

[TBMASE]

56. Obama already said he knew nothing about it

so, don't give me this bullshit. It was ended after someone blew the whistle on it.

[Aerows]

60. Who voted yes to fund it?

Did Obama vote to fund it in 2008?

[TBMASE]

63. Did he?

Everyone who voted for it is accountable, everyone who authorized the sales or stopped the agents from stopping them at the border is accountable

we can start with all the Yea Votes

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/110-2008/h393

[Aerows]

64. Yes, he did

That's why your defense of his credibility is so laughable.

[TBMASE]

66. You asked if Obama voted to fund it, then tell me yes

and say MY DEFENSE is laughable?

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/110-2008/h393

[Aerows]

69. Obama ended the program

Darrell Issa voted to fund it. Now, which do you have a problem with, the fact that a D ended the program, or the R currently whining about it voted to fund it?

[TBMASE]

74. How did Obama end a program he knew nothing about until he heard it on the news?

Here are the people who voted to fund it, they should ALL be held accountable along the the people who ordered it, supervised it and tried to cover it up

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/110-2008/h393

[notadmblnd]

77. he misunderstood your question. Obama is not on your list

This looks like a list for the House not the Senate. Obama was a Senator and he was running for President so he may not have voted on the bill listed at all.


Fail- yet again.

[TBMASE]

81. I know what I posted

And I know it was the House Vote.

Every Yea vote should be held accountable for funding the program, regardless of party

[notadmblnd]

83. lol

[Kablooie]

87. Or you're Bush and you sell them to Mexican Drug gangs.

The whole thing started under Bush and the Obama admin continued it.