We have a very different set of values from Trump voters

[Martin Eden]

I wrote this in an outdoor recreation forum, responding to a Trump voter who's been rubbing it in and is "overjoyed" at the election results:


We obviously have very different sets of values. I treasure Earth's natural environment, not just for my own personal recreation but because the wonderful diversity of living things has intrinsic value that will be permanently lost with the destruction of natural ecosystems. Tearing up the Earth to convert finite resources into greenhouse gases and short term profits accelerates our own demise. We depend on the natural environment of this planet to sustain our own lives, which will be shortened as more toxins are spewed into the air we breathe and the food we eat. Fish are becoming unhealthy, and we poison the oceans at our own peril.

We have different values because I support religious freedom that maintains the separation of church and state and is not a license to discriminate.

We have different values because I see the growing chasm between the rich and poor not only as an injustice but as a threat to the viability of our economy and to the fabric of our society. Trump has proposed massive tax cuts for the rich and the Republican congress is chomping at the bit to cut Social Security and Medicare. This will be a massive transfer of wealth from working Americans who paid for these earned benefits all their lives to the pockets of Donald Trump and the millionaires he picked for his cabinet.

You apparently are fine with that. I most definitely am not.

We have different values because I want my country to be represented on the world stage by a decent human being, not a vulgar narcissist who degrades women, admires authoritarians, selected a white nationalist to be his closest advisor, and blew racist dog whistles throughout his campaign.

You are overjoyed this vile demagogue will be our next president. I am appalled, and very concerned about the future of our country and our planet Earth.

If you are a "values voter" as I am, then we have very different values.

[tblue37]

1. K&R for visibility! nt

[NRaleighLiberal]

2. it's the opposite of Ayn Rand, really.

[Martin Eden]

5. Paul Ryan says Ayn Rand explains the MORALITY of capitalisn

[Earth Bound Misfit]

7. Dafuq have you ever "produced" Lyin Ryan?

[rurallib]

10. wow - people dying in the streets is moral?

Jesus, save me from your followers

[gregcrawford]

14. This asshole just hit...

... the hottest of all my hot buttons.
Ayn Rand was a malevolent pig of a woman whose bumper-sticker "philosophy" extolled the "virtues" of pathological selfishness, and condemned altruism in any and every form.
I met that evil bitch in 1968 when I was 21. I had read "Fountainhead Shrugged" (No, its not a typo; the two badly written doorstop novels are so similar they may as well have been one unreadable cinderblock of a book) at my employers' emphatic recommendation, as well as many of her essays.
I was strongly encouraged to accompany them to a talk given by Her Eminence in which she repeatedly derided working people as "parasites," and railed against altruism and kindness in general as weaknesses to be exploited. Because Russ and Bob were movers and shakers in Boston's Objectivist community, they were granted special dispensation to meet Alisa Rosenbaum – Rand's real name – backstage after her tirade. I tagged along, shook her nicotine-stained claw, and retired to the shadows to watch her behave like the vilest pig imaginable, while her chain-smoking sycophants – one of whom may well have been Alan Greenspan – nodded sagely at every insult she spewed at them and everyone else in the room, including the hosts that sponsored her "talk."
I have nothing but contempt for her admirers, and undying hatred for public officials like Ryan that subscribe to her malicious drivel.

[stuffmatters]

19. Wow.Terrific read. Thanks for the memory!

[Martin Eden]

23. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but on the other hand ...

... seeing evil up close can steel one's resolve to fight it. Also, I would not have had the pleasure of reading the excellent rant I'm responding to here.

You've probably seen the quote below, but it's always worth sharing in this context:

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
- John Rogers

[CrispyQ]

38. "Fountainhead Shrugged"

I can't stop laughing.

I have nothing but contempt for her admirers, and undying hatred for public officials like Ryan that subscribe to her malicious drivel.

Excellent post!

[niyad]

40. thank you for that memory, for which you have my deepest sympathies. and, like you, I have

nothing but contempt for her and her sycophantic followers.

[certainot]

37. dems are studying fish without the water

most of the analysis is not getting to the fundamental problem.

in ryan's state the uni of wisconsin admin is now being bombarded by republican base because the rw radio stations in that state and maybe around the country are reacting with white hot outrage! to this:

According to UW- Madison's website, "The Problem of Whiteness" is a new course taught by Damon Sajnani. It will be offered in the Spring 2017 semester.

The course is described as understanding how whiteness is socially constructed and experienced in order to help dismantle white supremacy. The course description says "the class will explore how white people consciously and unconsciously perpetuate institutional racism and how it not only devastates communities of color, but also perpetuates the oppression of most white folks along the lines of class and gender."

one station who's local blowhard is calling for calls and emails to UW is on the madison limbaugh station WIBA that depends on wisconsin badger games and the association with the university to attract advertisers! so while they wave th badger flag they get assholes like ryan and walker elected, sell voter suppression based on voter fraud lies and racist hate, try to defund public ed, deny global warming, etc. in the few min i listened to i even heard a badger promo, a few minutes from his call to shut this outrageous class down. the prof's going to get death threats and won't even know it starts with badgers radio.

uni of wisconsin is one of 88 unis that 257 limbaugh stations use to attract advertisers.

the real question to ask when figuring out how all this could happen should be - why was trump even close? how can a major american party not only deny global warming but get a guy like trump into the white house? what kind of country is this? why are all those rural states so red? is this just a cycle?

she lost votes because they weren’t sure they could trust her? a politician?

unlike her, he’s not a politician.... right

most of that alternate reality trump was repeating as fact that he was getting such great base support for was exactly the same stuff coming out of all the RW radio stations.

"I listened to thousands of hours of talk radio, and he (Trump) was getting reports from me,"

will democrats spend the next two years pretending rw radio is a bygone technology and not worth factoring in?

walker and ryan are there because liberals ignore talk radio.

[CrispyQ]

42. You should make this a post.

After reading the other post of yours, I Googled "groups against hate radio in the USA" & got some hits, but no real groups - just articles about hate radio & hate groups. So yeah, the dems are pretty much going to continue to ignore this issue. And it shows in a different way, how the dems are out of touch with rural America. I'm liberal in a metropolitan area & I never listen to radio. My friends hardly listen to radio. But 30 miles east of here is rural America & they listen to radio. I know, cuz I grew up there & I still visit there & they listen to radio for the weather, for the market & for news specific to rural living.

[certainot]

43. thanks, i was just thinking same thing

i've done a lot of diaries re talk radio and this about the UW course is a great eg of REAL political correctness

they're calling the course an eg of pc.... i wouldn't be surprised if limbaugh didn't weiogh in on this - i'll bet that prof is going to get death threats

[Arkansas Granny]

3. K&R

[progressoid]

4. Rec!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

6. Expect Trump supporters to act like you must obey or ELSE.

[Afromania]

8. Two thumbs up

way, way, way up. I'd love to know what the response, responses were. Probably something about emails I'd wager.

[Martin Eden]

12. He hasn't respond

But if he does, it will be dismissive without an attempt at logical argument. He's as cheerful as can be that Trump won, so rather than consider any of the issues I raised he'll just rub it in some more.

There's just a few RWers in the forum and none have responded, but I've gotten positive feedback from others.

[raccoon]

9. I regret that I have only one rec to give for this post. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

11. This is unhelpful reductionist echo chamber red meat.

Does not match or explain any of the 'surprise' trump voters I encountered after the election, like my mom or brother, whom both always voted Democratic for President, whenever we talked about 'who'd you vote for' at family gatherings.

OP monologue might sound good or feel good, and maybe comfort is what some people want right now, but some of us want to get to the nuts and bolts of WHY IN THE BLUE FUCK DID WE LOSE, and HOW CAN WE NOT FUCKING LOSE AGAIN, and are getting tired of blame seeking and 'comfort' posts.

A bifurcating us/them wall of absolutes like this, is not even a STARTING POINT for making sure this slip doesn't turn into a slope in the future.

[Martin Eden]

15. The Trump voter who inspired me to write the OP ...

... is a red meat echo chamber rightwinger who thinks Sarah Palin would make a great president. He will never EVER vote for a librul as a matter of principle and personal pride.

I wasn't looking for a starting point with this person; I was provoked, and responded.

That will not be my strategy this weekend when I see relatives who I care about, some of whom voted for Trump. I will, however, bring up the values I expressed in the OP, including the transfer of wealth out of their pockets that Trump and the likes of Paul Ryan have in store -- not to shame them, but to identify shared values and point out the incoming administration will be destructive to those values and their interests.

I was, however, trying to shame the red meat teabagger I responded to. Six weeks after the election I still have anger and a button that can be pushed.

You are of course correct in much of what you wrote. The overriding goal has to be a positive political revolution that will sweep the oligarchs and the real deplorables from power. Many people who voted for Trump do indeed share some of the values I expressed, and nearly all of them will be hurt by Republican policies.

Admittedly, the title I chose for this thread is not entirely true. I was indulging an uncharitable impulse that is not a good strategy going forward, but it felt good while I was doing it.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Understood, and I agree with this.

I also wasn't entirely clear on the context you wrote the OP in, until a couple minutes ago.

This weekend will be interesting for sure, dancing around this stuff. My extended family is about 50/50 trump/Hillary supporters, and of the trump supporters, probably less than 10% are actual dyed in the wool 'deplorables' as commonly understood, and that makes these waters.... difficult to navigate.

I wouldn't be surprised to read about an uptick in domestic violence calls this weekend.

[Martin Eden]

21. My first impulse was to respond unkidly to what you wrote, for your words were harsh

But I decided to wait, cool down, and consider the content rather than the tone. I understand I may have hit a nerve, because your family members who switched to the Republican ticket in this election are not morons without values.

I will have to remember that this weekend, and be considerate before I speak. Thankfully, Thanksgiving was a small affair with no Trump supporters. A month ago I very likely would have laid into them unmercifully. My sister, who shares my political views, had to shut down her facebook account after the election because she knew that several long term personal relationships would have ended.

Restraint is a challenge.

Hopefully, nobody gathering this weekend to celebrate what should be an occasion of love good cheer will hurt each other physically or emotionally (at least, not more than usual for Christmas).

[AtheistCrusader]

24. I almost drove off the side of the road when my mom told me how she voted.

That was the wakeup call for me, that we need to listen.

Thank you for stopping and listening to me, and also, for building out more context. You provided it initially, but I didn't fully absorb it. For my part, I'm sorry my tone was combative.

[Martin Eden]

25. Wishing you and your family a Merry Christmas

Our little exchange here is a good example of how restraint and consideration can produce a positive experience, instead of turning acrimonious and ugly.

[DLevine]

13. K&R. nt

[MADem]

17. I keep saying this. We do not have common cause with people who hate us for our

skin color or our religion or our immigration status.

They just do not share our values.

[Earthican]

18. Do not forget gender

Misogyny was a big part of it, even with some of the women voters. Also, more than immigration status I think it is where the immigrants came from. Trump and his followers are bringing fascism to the US and it carries a flag and a bible.

[MADem]

20. Of course, I have not forgotten that. I've mentioned it often in other posts.

We can add "orientation" to the pile, too.

[Earthican]

22. That too

It is really an us vs. them philosophy that repubs seem to have. I shudder to think what they would do to the others if they had their wish. Gas chambers come to mind.

[Eliot Rosewater]

26. Brilliant and will be lost on the ears of someone predisposed

to an entirely different set of beliefs.

It seems impossible these people are running the show now, but they are, and I am pretty sure the results will be catastrophic.

[jimlup]

27. He also appears to be incompetent

but I guess that won't play out until several months into the horror of his Presidency.

[Amimnoch]

28. Well, there's ours. WTF is their values??

Up until this election, I'd always thought of the con's as more of ignorant children with a severe "me.. me.. me.." syndrome. A few traits I'd always believed about them:

They actually do love their country. Sometimes to the point of ridiculous zealotry, but I never doubted that they loved the US.

That their obsessive clutching to their guns and bible was actually well intended, if misguided. Even though they loved being hypocritical and cherry picked the passages of their fable book of stories, I did believe that most of them, at heart, were good and well intening people. That their opposition to my marriage, and womens rights was based on said misguided faith.

That, despite their voting against the best interests of the middle and working class, in the end they at least believed that they were supporting it.

That they believed in, and supported our military. That in the end, despite evidence to the contrary, they believe our wars and murder abroad was for just causes. Again, wrong in practice, but at the very least, noble in intent.

This election has completly and thoroughly shattered those beliefs. Now, they are the enemy within. They are nothing but base, stupid, ignorant, obnoxious shit-heads.. period.

If they REALLY loved our country, they would not tolerate Russian involvement in our election process. For fucks sake, they are supposed to be the "better dead than red" party!!!! It's THEIR party that for fucking decades labeled ANYONE who saw socialists and communists as people to be a traitor to the US! Now, they not only turn a blind eye to, but outright fucking CELEBRATE a Russian President tampering with our elections?? They are absolutely overjoyed at foreign hacking of government emails and government secrets?? This after all the fucking outrage over the security of Clinton's private email server?!?! That same server which, all truth told, was MORE secure than the State Department servers?!?! Fuck them.

For all of their bible toting bullshit, they love a man who's been divorced multiple times, put in a first lady that is foreign born (after all the Obama birth certificate bullshit) has done pornographic work, has for at LEAST a period of time been an illegal immigrant here herself.. The president himself is a FAMOUS adulterer.. but, yeah, fuck my own marriage because of their "deeply held religious beliefs." Fuck them.

They support the man that has so openly stated he's going to take the redistribution of wealth to whole new levels of absurdity?? Yeah, that's REALLY going to help the midddle class. That trickle down shit has worked sooooo well so far. Fuck them.

They support our military, but elected a man who is pissing off China, has asked in a security briefing why we don't consider using Nukes in the middle east, and talks about escalating wars in Afghanistan, and Iraq, not to mention talking about sending troops into Iran??? Yea! More dead troops. That's REALLY supporting our military, and making us safer.. Fuck them.

They don't give a shit about the US. They don't give a shit about the world. They don't give a shit about the continued survival of humanity. Their religion is NOT Cristianity, it' money and self interest, and white power. They love our flag, but don't give a shit about anything it stands for (excepting their misinterpretation of the 2nd amendment of course). They don't even give a shit about themselves! Most of what they voted for is so obviously not in the best interests of the vast majority of them. FUCK THEM!

[Moostache]

29. Amen! Hear! Hear!

Everything you said above has been rattling around my brain since the election.

I am dreading the Christmas dinner party in 2 days because my brother-in-law and his entire family are Trump supporters who showed their ass this year like never before...they disgust me on a visceral level that is going to explode if they begin their annual taunting of liberal principles as "taking from the makers" and the rest of their bile about "well, BLUE lives matter more because THEY protect US from THEM" and "it's going to be awesome to see Trump build the wall and make this country GREAT again"....

I am really thinking of faking illness to skip this year's Christmas gathering...

[Amimnoch]

30. My home is the traditional centerpoint for my family.

Those who openly supported trump have been notified that they are not welcome.

I have no room in my life for anyone who supported him. As a result I do no have ex-family and ex-friends, and my life is better for it.

[Moostache]

31. I'm reaching that same conclusion myself...

I just feel terrible for my parents. They are 100% aligned with liberal principles and the Democratic Party and they are reaching their 80's and feel alienated from 4 of their 9 grandchildren and 1 of their 3 children (my sister) as a result of this.

In my heart, I hold out hope for reconciliation with my sister (though not her disgustingly open racist, white power loving in-laws) but it is not likely to happen in the remaining time we will have our parents and an intact family here on Earth. Breaks my heart but I cannot see value in a "go along, get along" approach here.

The losses of the Trump era are mounting still and he is yet to officially start destroying the fabric of the nation....breaks my heart.

Best wishes for you and yours in this horrible time.

[IronLionZion]

32. There are many different types of voters

Did you notice that a lot of Trump voters kept it close to the vest until after the election? Many even lied to pollsters. They know he's a bad choice, they just don't want to fight with their friends and loved ones. We might be able to get some of these types to switch back. Many did not expect him to win. Many will suffer under his policies.

When DUers want to campaign and listen to voters in the rust belt/upper Midwest, we are definitely NOT talking about the racists, sexists, homophobes, and other bigots. We're talking about normal people who don't hate anyone and are not even that political or put much research into their votes. To them, "Make America Great Again" sounds good while calling them "Deplorable" does not win them over.

One can't seriously believe that millions of people put careful thought and analysis into electing a disqualified orange troll just to demonstrate the depths of their hatred. Especially the women who supported a grabber who walks in on teenage girls in the changing rooms.

[Mc Mike]

33. Great writing Martin. Thanks. You did Jack L proud. rec, nt.

[Martin Eden]

34. I've been at DU 14+ years, and you're the first person to comment on my DU name

My real first name in Martin, and my parents named me after the character in the Jack London book.

[Mc Mike]

35. I noticed your handle years ago.

I liked the working class angle of the story, but it ended too sad. All the 'it was work already done', talk about the people only jumping on the bandwagon to adore the writer after he was succeeding, never helping or encouraging him when he was struggling, was very interesting and understandable. You could see he was talking autobiographically, quite a bit. I'm glad he avoided overwhelming depression. (Vonnegut wrote some along those lines in Breakfast of Champs, too.)

All Jack's descriptions of San Fran in that time period are very interesting, too.

[rocktivity]

36. The biggest differnce being that they, not we

are a minority group.

More people voted against Trump than for him. We must never lose sight of that.


rocktivity

[usaf-vet]

39. Yes we have brains......

... giving us the ability to see thru Trumps BS.

[niyad]

41. k and r