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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat your uncle who watches FOX News all day is all worked up about (Fast and Furious)
Rachel Maddow, as usual, hits it out of the park on the loony Fast and Furious conspiracy theories, and the Darrell Issa witch hunt. It turns out that right-wing gun nut/militia blogs have been cultivating conspiracy theories about how F&F is really a complicated ploy for Obama, Clinton, and Eric Holder to take away everyone's guns. For a while only the true gun loons were into this stuff, but then FOX News mainstreamed it by giving voice to the militia guy who dreamed up the whole thing -- a guy named Mike Vanderbeough, the same guy who incited vandalism against Democratic offices after the health care reform vote.
And that's what lead to the Issa witch hunt and all the rest. Basically, F&F is the new birtherism.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#47898261
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LAGC
(5,330 posts)Fast and Furious was a real fuck-up operation, and someone needs to be held accountable.
Question Issa's motives all you want, but the bottom-line is that Holder owns this scandal, and either needs to make BATFE heads roll or resign.
Edit to add: and Rachel's never been accurate when it comes to guns/control.
pacalo
(24,721 posts)
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Far better than I have ever heard it explained...but there is a problem.
The ones that need to hear it won't and instead will be bombarded with endless sound bites that shapes it the right wing way.
And the average American works all day and comes home and turns on the TV and accepts the entertainment that is provided by the MSM....which will do the shaping...and we already know how it will be shaped.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)...you're spouting by saying something went wrong and Holder should be held responsible when it wasn't even his call!!!
WTF?!
Watching your handle dude
LAGC
(5,330 posts)But he didn't. And you still think he isn't at all responsible?
Really?
railsback
(1,881 posts)Shut down in 2010.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Spoonman
(1,761 posts)Project Gunrunner (The umbrella under which the operations below were conducted)
2006–2007: Operation Wide Receiver
2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious
The Obama/Holder DoJ began prosecution of individuals caught during Operation Wide Receiver in 2010 .
They began this process years after the operation ended.
Before the Holder DoJ took charge of Project Gunrunner, the gun "walk" (Operation Wide Receiver) was done in a controlled manner that involved surveillance and eventual seizure of the weapons.
After Holder took over the "controlled" gun walk methodology was abandoned, and agents were told not to interdict the weapons.
ATF agent John Dodson statement to the oversight committee:
Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing. ...
I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest.
Operation Fast and Furious was started and under the control of Holder.
The "rules" of the project for this operation were changed under his watch.
Holder was aware of it, as proven by the memos already released.
Numerous ATF agents voiced their concerns about the change to the agency, and were retaliated against for it.
ATF Agent Vince Cefalu, who helped to publicize Fast and Furious, was terminated shortly after exposing it.
Ultimately you should have asked yourself the common sense question - "if this was a Bush admin operation, WHY would Holder or the President do ANYTHING to help cover up Bush's fuck up?"
They wouldn't!
Holder has perjured himself and the President invoking executive privilege is just as fucked up as it was when Bush did it for Rove back in 2007.
Need I remind everyone of the the shit storm the 2007 Bush/Rove situtation created on this site? (don't cherry pick the applicability and become a political hypocrite)
Need I remind everyone that an estimated 200 people (including an ATF Agent) were "terminated/killed" due to Fast and Furious, not "terminated/fired" as with the Rove/Bush DoJ incident!!!!!!!!!!
Failure to grasp that finally concept will highlight those individuals who are morally just or completely inhumane in their political convictions and ideologies.
No matter what party an individual belongs to, right is right and wrong is wrong!
I believe we should hold our own to the highest standards, and I refuse to be a hypocrite!
Kingofalldems
(38,458 posts)with a source. Thank you.
Spoonman
(1,761 posts)Note who these were sent to, and the dates sent.
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pdf_65_67.pdf
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pdf_40_43.pdf
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html
May 3, 2011 Eric Holder testified under oath - "I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."
When you embarrass the party and the President to this degree, the appropriate response is to resign.
Kingofalldems
(38,458 posts)As stated in the article Holder was speaking of another project. Try again. Perhaps the NRA has some docs on this.
Are you a republican?
Spoonman
(1,761 posts)First of all, I've been a registered Democrat for probably longer than you've been alive (29 years).
Too add to that, I've been around here quite a bit longer than you
It never ceases to amaze me that when presented with evidence in BLACK and WHITE, some people simply respond with drivel.
Like you stated, TRY AGAIN.
The article never states he was speaking about another project, are you kidding me?
How much clearer do you want it?
Holder addressed the question as it was presented.
"I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time"
Clear enough?
Why is this an issue with me?
Quite simple, I do not give a pass to ANYONE in government REGARDLESS of their political party or political motivation.
HYPOCRISY or JUSTICE?
I for one WILL NOT lower myself to the standards of those I despise.
The time has come to demonstrate ones personal convictions, or political loyalty.
When it comes to the death of hundreds of innocent people, I will NOT turn a blind eye for the sake of "the party", SOMEONE must be held accountable and the truth should be known.
Kingofalldems
(38,458 posts)I have actually been a registered Democrat for 43 yrs. Assume much?
I guess you wouldn't be a candidate for any jury regarding Mr. Holder since you already convicted him. I bet this has something to do with 'gun grabbers' and such the RW spews. Bet the ranch.
Spoonman
(1,761 posts)You stated:
As stated in the article Holder was speaking of another project.
It's pretty clear cut that he was speaking about fast and furious when he states it in his testimony!
Please provide ANYTHING that supports your assertion (excluding another read the link/article comment).
I have actually been a registered Democrat for 43 yrs. Assume much?
You began the assumptions with the "are you a republican" crap.
Feel free to assume I actually care about the lose of Innocent lives, and justice for them.
I'll assume you condone his role in those deaths.
I guess you wouldn't be a candidate for any jury regarding Mr. Holder since you already convicted him. I bet this has something to do with 'gun grabbers' and such the RW spews. Bet the ranch.
You would lose the ranch!
I don't buy into the gun control conspiracy theory floating around out there, but I do right from wrong.
I do buy into the concept that we should hold EVERYONE accountable for their actions.
Holder knew about operation fast and furious, he lied under oath, and hundreds of people are dead because of the operation.
To hell with the truth that might be "damaging" to a "Democrat", if that's the new party platform, count me out!
Kingofalldems
(38,458 posts)progress2k12nbynd
(221 posts)You have a "watch list" on DU? Isn't that the mod's job? 
Response to LAGC (Reply #1)
Post removed
xoom
(322 posts)If he did have that opportunity, he is probably kicking himself for not shutting it down..
DanTex
(20,709 posts)F&F was an ATF gun tracking operation which went awry. Nobody is denying that. But a sting operation gone awry, by itself, wouldn't be a nationally prominent political issue.
The reason this is headline news is not because of mistakes and bad judgement on the part of ATF agents in planning and executing a sting operation. In fact, as tragic as the death of Brian Terry is, the much bigger issue with regards to gun trafficking is the fact that the US civilian gun market is the source for tens of thousands of guns that are fueling an escalation of drug violence in Mexico. Yes, some people died from guns that were lost track of during F&F, but those guns are a tiny drop in the ocean of weapons that are illegally smuggled from the US to Mexico.
The only reason we are talking about Fast and Furious is because the the Darrell Issa witch hunt. And the reason Darrell Issa is on a witch hunt is because the Republicans are getting riled up about loony gun-grabbing conspiracy theories that came from right-wing militia/gun nut blogs. They think that Fast and Furious might succeed where birtherism failed.
Also, yes, Rachel has done good reporting in the past when it comes to guns. And she continues to with Fast and Furious.
LAGC
(5,330 posts)Wow, where do I even begin?
First she goes on a rant about the "all plastic gun" that Glock was able to make. She claims Congress then passed a bill banning entirely plastic guns because of this magical "undetectable-at-airports" gun. Pure hyperbole -- no such thing ever existed.
Then she moves on to complain about “cop killer bullets." What she's referring to are armor-piercing (AP) rounds. But any high-caliber rifle bullet can penetrate body armor, just more hyperbole.
She then follows by making a classic anti-gunner mistake, stating the “assault weapon” ban made purchasing standard capacity magazines illegal. That’s not even close to the case. The “assault weapon” ban made it illegal to manufacture new magazines with a capacity above 10 rounds unless they were meant for military or law enforcement personnel. The Arizona shooter could still have legally purchased a previously manufactured 30 round magazine even with the ban in place.
Don't get me wrong, I love her when it comes to most things politics, but she is seriously uninformed when it comes to basic facts about guns. If she wants to be taken seriously on matters of gun control, she needs to hire new assistants who at least know what the reality of the situation really is.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)We need to have correct information. If Maddow is not correct then do correct her mistake. Laughing about it like an 8th-grader is dickish and unnecessary.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I saw the plastic gun segment, and everything Rachel said was accurate. Congress did ban all-plastic guns, out of concern that they could pass through metal detectors. Also, Rachel never claimed that plastic guns had been manufactured. She pointed out, correctly, that a gun manufacturer had announced that they had the materials technology to do so. I'd say a good time to ban plastic guns is before they are widely manufactured, wouldn't you? After all, if you wait until every gun nut has three of them in his basement, and then try to ban them, the NRA will say "well what about all those plastic guns already in circulation."
On to cop-killer bullets. Yes, any high-caliber rifle bullet can penetrate body armor. But most handgun rounds cannot. So, in light of the fact that most gun crimes are committed with handguns, I'd say that banning armor-piercing handgun bullets is a pretty good idea.
On to the AWB. Yes, the AWB grandfathered in existing large-capacity magazines. It didn't make it impossible to get 30-round magazines, but it did make it more difficult, and the price of high-capacity magazines dropped after the AWB expired. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Maddow and her staff were aware of this loophole in AWB -- I don't know exactly what she said. And even so, failing to neglect the grandfathering of existing high-capacity mags is hardly evidence of a trail of deception.
Bandit
(21,475 posts)I watch Rachel and I have heard her talk about guns and large capacity magazines more than once and I NEVER heard her say the things you have said she said.. I heard her very distinctly say large capacity magazines were legal if they had been produced befopre the law was inacted. Several times she stated that. I also heard her talk about armor piercing rounds.. which they are sold as.. and it really isn't important if a bazooka can do the same job or not, or high powered rifles, the point remains armor piercing bullets are not necessary for civilian use...Period. I have never heard her talk about an "all plastic gun" being undetectable at airport screening.. Are the bullets undetectable as well?
And this is just 2 seconds of Google-fu which brought this video up, I'm sure you could find much more if you looked hard enough:
Notice how at 8:48 the little blurb underneath says "Ext. Magazines Were Illegal Under Assault Weapons Ban That Expired in 2004" -- a blatant lie. Extended magazines were never illegal to possess, only to manufacture.
Nevermind the ridiculous suggestion that the Arizona shooter could have been stopped if not for the extended magazine. What they conveniently gloss over is that the Virginia Tech shooter had no extended magazines at all, yet was still able to kill far more people.
Rachel's full of it on guns.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The fact that pre-existing high-capacity mags were grandfathered is not the kind of thing that you're going to find in a one-sentence blurb. Manufacturing of new high-capacity mags was illegal.
Since AWB is ancient history, let's focus on the future. Surely you will agree with Maddow and I that high-cap mags should be banned again, and this time with no grandfathering. After all, they serve no purpose other than to facilitate mass shootings. And, as you point out, grandfathering in existing ones leaves a loophole in the law.
Also, nobody is suggesting that Loughner would have been stopped without the extended magazine. Just that he wouldn't have been able to shoot as many people. Which is true, seeing that he was tackled when he went to reload, which would have happened sooner if he had only had a 10-round magazine.
LAGC
(5,330 posts)Re: the Loughner shooting...
What makes you so sure Loughner would have had any trouble reloading standard-sized magazines? I mean, it certainly didn't stop shooter Cho at Virginia Tech.
I've owned a few of them before, and let me tell you they are quite cumbersome to handle, don't fit in pockets well, are hard to speed-load, and tend to jam more often. Truth is, those extended magazines may have actually SAVED lives by causing Loughner trouble, whereas he may have had no trouble at all had he just brought a bunch of standard-sized magazines that fateful day and shot and killed many more people.
This idea that banning all magazine capacities over 10-rounds would somehow prevent these mass shootings is just silly.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)
Javaman
(62,530 posts)and the one holder has been actively trying to stop and reign in?
perhaps, as the other poster said, you should watch the video.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Is there a specific number that would satisfy your need to be outraged?
clang1
(884 posts)Speaking of heads, from what I have read the Administration did shake some trees, just not the right ones.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)This thing was born out of the bush administration and belongs to them. They started it. Holder shut it down when he heard about it. He knew it was fucked up.
He should not resign. The scandal belongs to Gonzales.
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)That's all one needs to know.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)He hypnotized Bush and forced him to do it back in 2006 
gkhouston
(21,642 posts)
panzerfaust
(2,818 posts)
Similar Mistakes Have Been Made in the Past
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Namely hundreds of dead innocents, from Matamoros to Tiajuana. Somebody needs to be brought to account for all those dead.
railsback
(1,881 posts)100,000 + people were shot last year here in the U.S. 30,000 + died from gunshots here in the U.S. last year. Who's going to be held accountable for all that? Because apparently, according to the GOP, guns kill people now.
F & F is a joke, a witch hunt, and nothing more.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The bigger picture, of course, is that there are tens of thousands of dead innocents killed by weapons smuggled illegally from US gun stored into Mexico. The F&F guns are a drop in the bucket. So it's not like the people who killed Brian Terry, for example, wouldn't have been armed if not for F&F.
Yes, there needs to be accountability, not just because the guns from F&F were lost track of, but more importantly, because the ATF badly needs an effective strategy to combat gun trafficking into Mexico. It also would probably help if it weren't legal to by 100 AK-47s in one visit to a gun store. If the GOP actually cared about the lives of people killed by illegally smuggled guns, then they wouldn't have fought tooth and nail against the kinds of regulations that might put a real dent into the gun smuggling.
clang1
(884 posts)60,000 to 80,000 weapons is no drop in the bucket.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)60,000 to 80,000 is the total number of guns smuggled to Mexico that have been traced back to the US.
F&F involved a total of about 2,000 weapons, and it's not clear how many of those actually found their way into the hands of criminals. So far, AFAIK, the number of F&F weapons that have actually been found at Mexican crime scenes is about 200. While that is a lot, compared to the total flow of guns to Mexico (which is actually larger than 60-80K -- that number only counts the guns that were recovered in Mexico, submitted for tracing, and traced successfully), it is a drop in the bucket.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)He doesn't watch Fox News, thankfully--it would make him more of a douche than he already is.
His wife, on the other hand, is like Ann Romney's duplicate.
liberalnationalist
(170 posts)everything the publicon party says is projection..so therefore they are Facist Nazi's parading around as Americans.
clang1
(884 posts)ding ding ding.. We have a winner. They are the new fascists. They don't wear black uniforms.
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)I consider myself up on the news - as much as I can stomach, but I hadn't heard of "Fast and Furious" until my right wing co-worker brought it up yesterday. She really thinks Eric Holder is going to be indicted. This explains everything, and I'm going to plead with her not to get her info from Faux News, and reassure her that her guns are safe from President Obama. OMG.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)
Bunch of dumbasses
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Bush I sends people to upgrade China's nuclear facilities after Chernobyl. More information gets blabbed than intended. Congress does not learn about this until Clinton is in office. So they blame Clinton.
Bush II puts a small amount of guns in the huge gun market to Mexico to track the guns. They lose track of the guns. Congress does not learn about this until Obama is in office. So they blame Obama.
The one difference is that the first operation was approved by the Senate and announced in public beforehand, while the 2nd was a minor undercover operation.
clang1
(884 posts)60,000 to 80,000 weapons 'gunwalked' into Mexico is a small amount of arms? It is not a 'small' amount. Lol who do you supply with weapons. These are the numbers I have seen and I am going with them until I have reason not to.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)
ananda
(28,866 posts).. and hiding under this smokescreen regarding Holder and the DOJ.
Not that Holder and the Obama admin don't have a lot to answer for,
but at least they were trying to stop voter rights abuses and purges
in several states, particularly Florida.
Gold Metal Flake
(13,805 posts)That is its correct name.
pscot
(21,024 posts)The original gun-walking scheme began in 2006, but F&F was initiated in 2009. Holder was informed of its existence in July, 2010 and the whole thing blew up early in 2011. Holder has offered conflicting versions of what he knew and when. Issa's a slimeball, but the Democrats are blowing smoke on this too.
frylock
(34,825 posts)nobody.
pscot
(21,024 posts)
HopeHoops
(47,675 posts)SalviaBlue
(2,917 posts)
aikoaiko
(34,172 posts)...politicians the starting point to make hay about this.
That unnecessary death and other deaths are good reason to look into the operation.
I notice that neither you in the OP (although I know you have regretted it in past and later in this thread) or Rachel mention the death of Brian Terry. Sad that he is easily forgotten by you and Rachel as you fight against the political BS of the RW.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)I have taken the time to learn about Brian Terry, he and his family deserve that much.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The Republicans pursuing this witch hunt are echoing the Sipsey Street conspiracy theory. And there's a reason for this: without the conspiracy theory, this is just a sting operation gone awry, with basically political angle at all.
It's funny to me how the NRA crowd focuses on Brian Terry as if he's the only person who has been killed by an illegally smuggled gun. In fact, tens of thousands of people have been killed by guns smuggled into Mexico that had nothing to do with F&F. As others have pointed out, it strains credulity to suggest that the people who killed Terry wouldn't have been able to get hold of a gun if not for F&F. The guns from F&F are a drop in the bucket compared to the massive amount of guns that are smuggled across the border every year.
If the GOP or the NRA cared even slightly about the loss of life due to smuggled guns, instead of going on this witch hunt, they would instead implement regulatory changes that might have a chance at actually putting a real dent into this flow of guns. And this is the real tragedy of the whole F&F controversy. Thanks to the fact that the NRA considers any kind of common sense gun law to be "anti-freedom", our current set of gun laws are hopelessly inadequate to deal with the massive amount of gun smuggling from the US into Mexico.
The reason that the ATF even had to resort to the questionable tactics such as F&F in the first place is that the gun lobby even opposes things like reporting of multiple semi-auto rifle sales, or a gun trafficking law that would make it possible to prosecute gun traffickers for gun trafficking rather than for paperwork violations such as "lying and buying" or operating a firearms dealership without a license. It's ludicrous that NRA paranoia runs this deep.
In the congressional testimony on F&F, basically all the ATF agents pointed out that these kinds of laws, which would place no burden at all on lawful gun owners, would be helpful in order to combat the trafficking, and yet Issa and company ignored them, even going so far as to reprimand them for actually making suggestions about how we might reduce the amount of gun trafficking in the future. And this is because the GOP/NRA is only in this for a witch hunt, and cares not a bit about the loss of life.
I'm all in favor of looking into the operation, to find out what went wrong, and fire the people responsible. But that's not what this controversy is about. The controversy is about a witch hunt, and about the GOP/NRA putting ideology ahead of human lives, as they always do.
aikoaiko
(34,172 posts)...and fire the people responsible." Do we know all that information already? I'm not so sure.
I also agree that the tragic deaths are no excuse for witch hunts and conspiracy theories from our elected officials (kooks can do whatever), but when you and Rachel neglect to mention the deaths that resulted from the operation as a "starting point" for the legitimate and illegitimate congressional responses your engaging in a wretched spin of the situation.
And for the record, the NRA has always been in complete support for catching and punishing severely those who break firearms laws.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)...for the environment. Yes, I'm sure they issue press releases all the time about how they support catching people who break firearm laws. Meanwhile, they lobby tirelessly against any legislation which might have a chance of reducing the amount of senseless gun violence in the US, and also in Mexico, ensuring that tens of thousands will continue to die just as tragically and senselessly as Brian Terry did.
The only "wretched spin" here is the from NRA crowd, exploiting the death of Brian Terry to go on a political witch hunt against the Obama administration -- and before you make any more excuses for the NRA, please read some of Wayne LaPierre's comments about Fast and Furious.
The fact of the matter is that the lack of adequate regulations to prevent gun trafficking is responsible for far more innocent lives lost on the Mexican border than one botched sting operation. The NRA would like to ignore all of the tens of thousands of guns that are trafficked illegally to Mexico, facilitated by the inadequate anti-trafficking laws that they fight to keep in place, and instead just focus on the one gun that killed Brian Terry.
Paladin
(28,264 posts)The gun militancy movement is legendary regarding its lack of concern for the victims of gun violence. The only reason that the drug agent's death is being raised by gun rights people is that it's a chance to trash Democrats in general and Obama in particular. You're not fooling anybody, here....
aikoaiko
(34,172 posts)But there was a good reason to investigate. The anti-gun extremists seem to not care anymore about the dead agent or others. Whatever concern or empathy they had seems to have turned into an excuse to lash out at "evil gun culture".
