Can I say something unpopular? Honestly... the people who make it to America illegally

[Recursion]

through all the hardships it takes to actually get here through that, are exactly the people I want to be my fellow citizens.

[Thinkingabout]

1. To take this further, many of those have come to work, really work at

Back breaking jobs and for low wages. Yes, they are not in the lazy column.

[elleng]

2. :hug:

[Xipe Totec]

3. We fear them because they remind us of how we once were.

Fearless, determined, undaunted.

[Recursion]

4. That

You are 100% right

[Kali]

29. ...

[DesertFlower]

5. if i was living under the conditions some of these

people live under -- no inside plumbing, etc. i would try and cross the border too.

[FarCenter]

8. No indoor plumbing is not so bad -- no water is bad.

[DesertFlower]

17. i should have added that to my post.

[Paka]

19. War and death squads are also bad.

We have all that to look forward to under Trump.

[awoke_in_2003]

69. And then there are many

fleeing gang violence in Mexico fueled by are stupid war on drugs.

[Mountain Mule]

6. It's not unpopular with me

We need more people with that kind of courage and spunk!

[Recursion]

7. That's my thought, honestly.

That was what made us great back in the 1800s and 1900s. I think it only stops working if we decide to stop it...

[treestar]

9. I agree. I often tell people who

are so set on only legal immigrants that they don't realize how hard it is to be legal and what choice would they have made in the situation had it been them? They act like the rest of the world is just like the US.

[metalbot]

45. This, partly

The "they should have done it the legal way" crowd makes me absolutely nuts. My typical response is to ask "so what is the legal way for an 18 year old from El Salvador?". There isn't one, unless he has family to sponsor him, or gets engaged to an American. Even if he has a family to sponsor him, it's anywhere from a 10-25 year wait, depending on country (the current wait for a Filipino to bring in a sibling is 23 years - you can check the current wait times online).

However, I'm opposed to illegal immigration. It provides no checks at all on who's entering the country, and subjects immigrants to poor working conditions, lower pay, and no ability to participate in society in many meaningful ways.

A crackdown on illegal immigration needs to be coupled with a significant opening of our current legal system, which is fundamentally broken.

[El Mimbreno]

60. Agreed!

For a long time I've figured the reason we have so many illegal immigrants is because it's so hard to do it legally. Working alongside folks from Mexico and Central America I found them to be motivated workers and a great addition to our workforce and culture.

[treestar]

61. I agree though with the current Congress

and all the backsliding, it will not likely soon be reformed to make sense. It ought to generally legalize those who want to come or at least match that as well as possible. 18 year olds from El Salvador are what we need not the 50 something siblings who have waited 23 years. It's just outdated.

[LittleGirl]

54. My spouse is a legal

citizen after going through the hoops and time frame. But nobody talks about the struggle to do it legally. It's not easy, it's expensive and it takes years!

[spanone]

10. that's popular in my world.

[HassleCat]

11. So we should admit them

And deport the legal immigrants.

[Recursion]

13. Why deport either?

FFS we're one of the least densely settled great powers. We have room to spare.

[HassleCat]

14. If we can maintain zero population growth, sure. (eom)

[SQUEE]

58. Square footage is not the problem..

Jobs and economic growth are.

We can't get $15 an hour now for working people, and you want to flood the market further.

When we stop exploiting non citizens and start paying these people what they deserve, 15 is not going to cut it either.

[IronLionZion]

25. Starting with the ones who came from Europe

first in, first out

[Maru Kitteh]

40. No. We should admit them, admit the legal immigrants and deport the deplorables!

Let them set up a "homeland" somewhere else.

They can have their white utopia, buy as many uzi's and rocket launchers as they can fit in the living room, work for a handful of dollars a week unfettered by OSHA, snort coal dust off the coffee table, save money on healthcare by not having any, and enjoy flammable water with so much lead it sounds like buckets of fishing weights falling into the sink.

[Maraya1969]

12. I don't mention this enough but my dad came here illegally a long time ago.

He came here to live the American dream from Canada. He paid of lot of money in taxes and was also very generous and helped many people.

Back then he said you could easily get a social security number so he did. It was about 10 years that he was undocumented. By that time he had met and married my mom and they had my brother and I. He said, regarding his lack of a green card, that they didn't know what to do or how to do it and were basically just scared. Finally someone helped him and everything was taken care of in literally one plane flight back and forth to Toronto. After that he became an American citizen.

We had the biggest, brobdingnagian American flag and pole in our front yard when I was growing up! I learned how to fold a flag as a young kid because my dad was so patriotic!

He ended up becoming a great American.

[Arazi]

15. KIck and rec + 10000 eom

[davidn3600]

16. So the ones who come here legally aren't ones you want to be your fellow citizens?

[rurallib]

18. oh good grief - he didn't say that

[Recursion]

26. That's a weird place to go from what I said

But, I mean, it takes all types...

[treestar]

63. no but sometimes via the quotas

they are the less desirable immigrants, the older ones who happen to have a US citizen brother or sister, etc. We need young workers - that is who immigrates, so we should change the law to attract them rather than the quotas with waits so long we are getting old people.

The easiest to become legal are spouses of US citizens and parents of US citizens (over 21). That brings us lots of old people.

https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/law-and-policy/bulletin.html

for how long the waits are.

[Adrahil]

20. Well....

While I certainly want us to be able to control entry into the country for security reasons, I have a hard time disagreeing with you. People who want to come here to work hard and get their shot are pretty damned admirable, IMO, and I welcome them, despite my security reservations.

[sagetea]

21. It's so sad

That we think it is unpopular to express love for a fellow human being! We are all Earthlings, we are all people, and yet, we feel apologetic because it's not popular!

Love you, Recursion!!! Stay in love!

Ho'
sage

[metalbot]

46. Well, some similar opinions would get you vilified here

Globalization and free trade may have gutted the US middle class, but they've lifted many many millions in Asia out of poverty and a regular starvation cycle. There are arguably many more desperately poor people who's lives have been improved than there are American's who's lives have been worsened by globalization.

It's easier to think kind thoughts about the people who take great risks to work in agriculture in the US than it is to think kindly about the people in China who are making your electronics.

[romanic]

22. The illegals that come here to be productive and create

opportunities for themselves and others should definitely stay; make it easier for them to attain legal citizenship.

[George II]

23. Over the cross section of Americans, I'm sure that is NOT unpopular. Thanks.

[elmac]

24. My great Grandfather emigrated from Canada

I want to reverse the process.

[Nay]

32. My mom emigrated from Canada and I HAVE reversed the process -- at least, I

now have Canadian citizenship and can hop at a moment's notice.

[elmac]

44. Congrats!

I wish I could auction off my citizenship on ebay or swap for another country, it really means nothing to me now. I'm getting my property ready for sale, probably next month. Then will be free to move anywhere, don't want to spend my last years in the Fourth Reich.

[mnhtnbb]

49. I also have Canadian relatives back a couple of generations and would like to return.

I have a nephew who is very involved with tracking down family history. He just wrote me this week that he's
tracked the relative--documented him--on both sides of the Atlantic, coming from England to Canada.

[Iris]

27. I'm with you. n/a

[yardwork]

28. No human being is illegal.

[lonestarnot]

30. The next may be the next Einstein!

[Stonepounder]

31. We cannot solve the illegal immigrant problem

when there is such income disparity between the US and Latin America. The minimum wage in Mexico is somewhere around $4.50-$5.00/DAY. In the US the minimum wage is currently $7.25/HOUR. If you could sneak into Canada and make 10-12X as much as you are currently making wouldn't you feel you had some incentive to do so?

[Abq_Sarah]

41. Of course that wouldn't work in Canada

Since they have strictly enforced immigration laws.

[treestar]

64. yes, which is why the protestations of

"legality" are never accompanied by any analysis of what the sayer of such would do in the same situation.

[ProgMom1917]

71. Who Blames Them?

I don't think anyone blames immigrants from Latin/Central America who come here looking for work. Should we support a completely open borders policy? I detest Trump/Hitler but this issue makes me a bit nervous. What is the solution?

[kwassa]

33. Were the Pilgrims legal? Was the Mayflower legal?

[Bucky]

34. That's not unpopular.

most Americans are very welcoming to immigrants. There's only a few a-holes who engage in scare tactics who are destroying the conversation

[Scurrilous]

35. My ex-wife's family waded across the Rio Grande (fleeing Nicaragua).

Great people.

[mountain grammy]

36. Some of the nicest people I've met.. honestly.

[Starry Messenger]

37. My family came here from Ireland--I have no idea if legally or illegally.

Most people who live here were not the original residents of the country. Pulling up the ladder is hypocritical.

What we need is better penalties for wage theft for workers who feel vulnerable and are paid less for being undocumented.

[COLGATE4]

38. Not to mention all the hardships many go through once they're here.

Most of our ancestors didn't come here with papers perfectly in order.

[JimBeard]

39. I have seen what most of you have described and it is usually true but the children of many, not all

are the loafers but not all. I see it with whites too.

As a leftest is the unbalance to social programs. When one starts paying to social programs half way through benefit paying age,
it puts a strain on the system.

When we had MASSIVE immigration during Baby bush's term, it really over turned the cart.

As usual Republicans really want immigrants for cheap labor but do not want to pay benefits. It hurts all of us.

[KT2000]

43. the promise of America

is revered by the first generation that comes here from other countries. The next generation does not have that - they are just like other Americans who take it for granted. pre-trump years of course - we may all revere the American promise of the past.

[KT2000]

42. as my dear friend used to say -

I would be one of them.

[Taitertots]

47. Illegal immigration isn't about overcoming hardship, it's about avoiding it.

It is the exact opposite type of behavior we should be championing.

[ProfessorPlum]

56. ???? whiskey tango foxtrot

[Taitertots]

59. What don't you understand about it?

Following our laws and immigrating legally is a hardship that we should champion.

Following our laws and staying in Mexico and improving the country is a hardship that we should champion.

[ProfessorPlum]

62. I think that all of those circumstances involve hardship

But, people who actively risk arrest and hustle their asses off to make their lives better for themselves and their families also happen to contribute in very positive ways to our country.

I think I just made an argument that might also apply to run of the mill criminals, too. Hmm.

But immigrants from less wealthy countries often display a lot of resourcefulness, endurance, and strength, regardless of whether they are officially "legal" or not.

[Taitertots]

67. Your second paragraph is correct

Poor people would improve their lives by (insert crime of your choice).

The people who embody the traits you describe are the people who worked hard, followed the law, and immigrated legally.

[ProfessorPlum]

72. you can't say that people who immigrate illegally don't also have those traits

assumes facts not in evidence, and also is disputed by just thinking about which people have the hustle and bravery to do it.

There isn't anything magic about the legal immigration process. It doesn't change people. And it is slow, unfair, and capricious.

[treestar]

65. not human nature

especially when it comes to the very poor. If you were that desperate, what would you do? Stay there because there is no way you would ever be legal under their laws? That's unrealistic. You're assuming they are all like middle class people or even working class people here. That's not what it is like south of the border.

I would never go and live in Canada or the UK illegally because I respect their law. Then again, I have the right to be in the US comfortably. Say an Orange President is elected and you end up starving with nothing and there are jobs available if you sneak into Canada. It'd be more like that.

[awoke_in_2003]

70. Not surprising

that that one would say something like that.

[druidity33]

80. a response based on privilege...

It's the assumption that a poor and desperate person who is just trying to make a better life for themselves needs to have researched the legal pathways (that involve Lawyers and Money... and Time! [that of course poor and desperate people don't have]) involved with citizenship. Why bother when all your friends and family know at least someone who went to the US and is making enough to live in a house. Not owning. Living. Illegal immigrants live hardship everyday... i'd never trade my life for theirs. The coop i work at has been trying to hire a dishwasher... $12 an hour, starting pay, benefits, Union job. Think it's easy to find someone? We're an above board organization so we can't hire undocumented workers, but i'll tell you what, after dealing with 2 years of high school kids, near-retirees, and 'transition' workers, all of whom couldn't care less about doing a good job, i'd be quite happy to deal with someone who's competent and appreciates the job! I'm trying to cook here! I worked my way up from dishwasher, so i know what i'm talking about... anyway...

that's probably more info than you needed but the whole point was the difference between legal and illegal immigration is often one of privilege, some people can start the process and some people just need to jump out of their lives. Imagine that, jumping out of your life for a better one... can you blame them?

[Taitertots]

83. Priviledge is a non-sense term that can't be coherently mapped to reality

Nothing you've said is counter to anything I've said. You are reinforcing my views by reiterating how it's difficult to be follow the law and it's easy to be a criminal.

I don't need to imagine because I already "jumped out of my life". It would have a lot easier if just ignored every law that stood in the way of my greed.

[Nitram]

48. I highly doubt that's an unpopular stance on DU or among liberals in general.

When you prefaced your comment by saying you were going to say something unpopular I assumed you were going to support Trump's plan to deport all illegal aliens.

[aikoaiko]

50. Mostly.

[nycbos]

51. It's not unpopular.

Most polls show a majority favor a path to citizenship.


And HRC did win the popular vote.

[Squinch]

52. In college, I worked in a restaurant where the workers all socialized together after work.

We were all young and would go out drinking after work often. There were two dishwashers who spoke only Spanish and who were clearly much younger than we were, but we invited them along all the time, and they came.

Over the weeks, exchanging pidgeon English and pidgeon Spanish, I learned their story. They were both 16, both in the country on their own, both making a living, both sending money home to their families, and when anyone asked them how they came to be here, their answer was "running and swimming."

I'd invest in those two guys in a heartbeat.

Though I will add that my friend who is the most anti-illegal immigration of all of the people I know is someone who lived apart from her two daughters for years in order to get them legally into the country. I can understand her feeling of unfairness.

[Demsrule86]

53. Agreed.

[bitterross]

55. Why on Earth would your thought be unpopular?

Maybe unpopular to the Trump Nazi brigade. But quite welcome here I'd think.

[Iggo]

57. That ain't that unpopular.

[ctw1]

66. My problem with illegal immigration is illegal employment

I always hear that they are doing jobs that Americans don't want. To me, it looks like jobs American's don't want for the wage being offered. There is not much you can't get people to do for the right amount of money. Illegal immigration drives down wages, and I don't think liberals and progressives should forget that. The middle class in this country has been gutted for many reasons. One of them is that jobs in food service, construction, agriculture, etc are being worked by illegals that are willing to work for less than what an American is willing to live on. I don't think that Americans should be forced to wage compete with someone here illegally who is willing to work off the books. I would love to see us handing out Social Security Cards at the border as people come across. I would love to see all people working for a living wage. But I doubt that will happen any time soon.

[Iggo]

68. People are not illegal. What they did to get here is illegal.

Have a wonderful day.

[Dems to Win]

75. Yes, illegal immigration drives down wages for the entire working class

When Democrats object to enforcing immigration laws and deporting those here without authorization, many voters hear that Democrats want them to continue working for very low wages in unfair competition with unscrupulous employers who exploit undocumented immigrants.

[heaven05]

73. yep

[Fast Walker 52]

74. yep... but this is only really unpopular with rightwing mouthbreathers aka Trump voters

[get the red out]

76. Good point

I agree with that.

[taught_me_patience]

77. Do you also extend that to Melania Trump? n/t

[citizen blues]

78. As an adjunct faculty member at a community college with evening classes, . . . .

almost all of my students are Latino; however, I also see refugees. Most don't realize just how profoundly dysfunctional our immigration system is. As with the comments above, most think of the Mexican immigrants as poor, low-educated people who work menial jobs. While there are people that fit that stereotype, the true picture is not that simple.

In addition to Mexican, we're also seeing more from Guatemala, El Salvador, and Colombia - people fleeing drug cartels. Yet, US Bank can launder drug money and get away with a fine while these people's lives are shattered and their families split apart. Furthermore, we are seeing educated people coming to the U.S. I've had in my classes an accountant with a Masters degree, a lawyer, teachers, and a pharmacist, among others. Yet, these people are stuck working in manufacturing, warehouses, and landscaping because the U.S. refuses to recognize their education from their home countries.

Now, at the other end of the immigration spectrum, the U.S. is seeing what's being called a "reverse brain drain." At my other adjunct job at a university, I teach international students who are earning college degrees here in the U.S. In addition to business, many of these students are going into highly technical and scientific fields - fields that the U.S. has a shortage of. However, when they graduate, even if they want to stay here and have a job offer here, they often are not allowed to. Therefore, they have to return to their home countries, but by the time their visa comes through 6-8 months later, they've already found a good paying job and elect not to return. Or if they are allowed to stay, their visas are reviewed every 6 months to 2 years and many of them decide it's not worth living in a constant state of limbo, not sure whether they'll be deported or not, and choose to return to their home countries. It's ridiculous the hoops and wait-lists these highly qualified professionals have to go through.

This is where our lack of investment in our education system, especially in the STEM areas and the broken immigration system merges. Wrap your head around this statistic: 3/4 of our PhD's are going to international students who we're then kicking out of the country. Yes, that 75% of our highest degrees are leaving the country. And, guess what! We now have a shortage of candidates to fill highly technical positions, and we're also lacking engineers!

[Dems to Win]

82. Yes, the entire system is messed up

I helped a STEM PhD get his green card, and it took an inch of paperwork. I felt I'd really achieved something BIG when his green card came through. It shouldn't have been so hard.

small voice: I hope that the election has lit a fire under Congress to fix this whole immigration system, top to bottom. I'm encouraged by Sens Durbin and Graham promoting an initiative already, hope it grows from Dreamers to a big fix. It's the only way to stop wholesale deportations, which no one wants, even the Rs cause it will hurt the economy. Maybe out of desperation it will finally happen.

[iluvtennis]

79. I totally agree with you. Living here in California, I cna honestly say I've never seen...

...a Mexican immigrant standing by the highway with signs begging for money. Instead, they make themselves a push cart and sell fruit, ice cream, snacks, etc outside the local schools and in the parks. Very creative and resourceful folks. I recall this past spring when my kids graduated from middle school. It was over 90 F that day and the football field where they graduated was hot as heck. The Mexican immigrants saved those of us dying of thirst as they had their handy push carts selling cold water/sodas/juice. They were also selling those things that people want to gift at graduations - flowers, teddy bears, etc. I thought to myself - why didn't I think of that.

[7962]

81. Nope.

Its actually not that hard for most. Many come and go many times during the year.

[11 Bravo]

84. I'll go out on a limb and guess that this will not be perceived as ...

an unpopular sentiment.
I do, however, agree.

[Lithos]

85. Most immigrants, legal and illegal are generally working for a better life

That is what makes it the American Dream.

The issue is not with immigrants, it's with the labor laws in this country which are stacked against the American worker. Immigrants (and foreign nationals with no intent of immigration - ex: H1B/L1) are brought/encouraged both directly and indirectly with promises of a job, often a wage-slave job which benefits only the employer.

It's easy (and encouraged by demagogues) to point fingers at a group of people who have yet to assimilate and who look and act differently with different ideas which makes them the blame for all change and strife. This of course helps perpetuate the wage slavery to both sides (ie, divided we fall, etc.).

[Hamlette]

86. I employed an "illegal alien" and no one has worked harder than she did

She was legally in the country but only allowed to work one particular, low paying part time job. Of course she couldn't support herself at that pay level so our friend helped her find work cleaning houses. She was astonishing. She literally ran around the house cleaning.

She got her citizenship and was going to college last I heard. I know it is spoiled but I've always had a housekeeper. I work full time, can afford it and pay well ($35 per hour in a market that pays $16-18) but it takes everyone else three hours to do what she did in one. (I paid her for 3 hours regardless of how long it took) I wish her well.

[LandrosT]

87. I've worked with many of them

They've lived very hard lives for years, and I don't blame them for not wanting to leave. It's a crying shame that so many people in this country are hateful enough to vote for an asshole who wants to kick them all out.

[MyNameGoesHere]

88. 80000 years ago or so

Illegal immigration was the standard. Then some greedy assholes came along and made arbitrary borders.

[gulliver]

89. It's a nice sentiment, but it is unworkable.

Populations of people don't work that way. Look what ISIS creating all of those refugees did to the world.

[markpem]

90. Dream act

Hopefully DACA and DAPA are here to stay... Not likely though.