Romney family’s dressage horse-related tax deductions last year exceeded median USA household income

[kpete]

Romney family’s dressage horse-related tax deductions last year exceeded median U.S. household income



Those Romneys! Just your typical Leave It to Beaver family, spending $1,000 on saddles, six figures on dressage horses, and who knows what on practical jokes, switcheroos, and oopsies!

Who couldn’t relate to this? He feels our pain, it’s so obvious:

The Romneys declared a loss of $77,000 on their 2010 tax returns for the share in the care and feeding of Rafalca, which Mrs. Romney owns with Mr. Ebeling’s wife, Amy, and a family friend, Beth Meyers.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/06/16/the_tax_deductibility_of_horse_related_expenses.html
http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2012/06/16/romney-familys-dressage-horse-related-tax-deductions-last-year-exceeded-median-u-s-household-income/

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Here's a stat that needs to be seen far and wide...

Kick and rec!!

[NNN0LHI]

2. All the wealthy people I know are anal about this stuff

When they donate even their old underwear and stockings to Goodwill they document every single pair and claim a deduction on their taxes.

Don

[rfranklin]

34. There are "non-profit" groups that allow rich folks to write off all kinds of hobbies...

A fellow I worked with years ago belonged to a SCUBA diving group that claimed they were doing archeological exploration so they could write off their vacations to various top notch diving locations. All legal...

[Digit]

57. In one of my former positions I had to check tax returns for some wealthy individuals

I was astonished to discover what they claimed as donations.

For the past 30 plus years, when I donated clothes, I would claim maybe 2.00 for a t-shirt, maybe 3.50 for a dress...you know, the prices they commanded at
a Goodwill or Salvation Army. Even when my clothing had never been worn and had the tags still attached, I deducted the price you would find it at GW or SA.

Of the many returns I viewed, and mind you I was not specifically looking for this, ALL of the donations listed for clothing and furnishings were far more than you would even pay at a fancy consignment store, and I shop at consignment stores.

Of course I don't know how this would do in an audit, but it was eye-opening for me.

[valerief]

63. It's true. The more they have, the cheaper they are. nt

[NNN0LHI]

65. I had a wealthy aunt who had a 12-year old Buick Electra 225 that the transmission went out on

She called GM world headquarters for a week straight and kept going over the persons head until she finally got someone on the phone who agreed to pay for that transmission. GM figured out she wasn't going to let it go so they relented.

She was a doctors wife and began every conversation with "I am the wife of Dr. So and So and demand some relief here."

She was persistent. Persistent enough to get GM to pay for that transmission 11 years and over a hundred thousand miles past when the warranty ran out.

They are something.

Don

[pinboy3niner]

3. Who knew horse dressage was so expensive?

(And tacky.)

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

36. That horse looks inebriated.

St Paddy's day celebrations will do that to you.

[pinboy3niner]

47. If you were a horse and somebody dressed you like that...

...you'd get inebriated too.

[Art_from_Ark]

81. Hello *hic*

I'm Mishter Ed

[pinboy3niner]

86. Mr. Ed--another victim of horse dressing...

No wonder he drinks!

[spanone]

4. how do you deduct a 'hobby' ????

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

13. They must be running their hobby as a business

I guess the horse must have won prize money in competitions and the Romneys don't want to pay taxes on those winnings, hence the deductions of the operating costs.

What would be funny is if that horse was incorporated by the Romneys. It would contradict Romney's statement about corporations being people: they're dressage horses, too.

[riderinthestorm]

15. I'm sure the horse operation is a business for the rMoneys.

The horse is owned in partnership. It would be interesting if she's owned by the corporation and listed as an asset.

Like I said, I'd be very interested in seeing that tax return.

[slackmaster]

78. It may be a business or a hobby

Either way they can deduct at least some of the expenses.

[slackmaster]

76. Not exactly. The IRS definitions of hobby and business are not terribly hard to understand.

I guess the horse must have won prize money in competitions and the Romneys don't want to pay taxes on those winnings, hence the deductions of the operating costs.

Correct!

Hobby expenses can be deducted to offset hobby earnings, which are taxable as earned income. You may deduct expenses up to the total amount of your hobby earnings, but (unlike the rules for a business) no more than that. If you have a net loss on your hobby, too bad.

Training horses for competitive Dressage is a very expensive hobby that few people can afford. An example of a hobby that involves significant money but is accessible to a lot more people is motor racing. Tens of thousands of people compete with motorcycles or cars or off-road vehicles. Deducting hobby expenses from their winnings is a very common tax tactic.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

38. Don't know.

Bill Maher covered this topic a month ago.

[valerief]

64. Great question. nt

[Arkansas Granny]

5. Assuming that each of the owners claimed an equal amount of loss, that means

a total of $231,000.00 spent for the support of the horse. That is obscene!

[riderinthestorm]

6. As a pro in the dressage biz, I'd be VERY interested in seeing their tax returns on this

Would love to see how they categorized those deductions.

FWIW, there's no way Ann rMoney spent ONLY $1,000 on a dressage saddle - probably closer to $10,000 for custom made, especially for upper level horses with Olympic quality like Rafalca where the strength and comfort of her back is paramount for maximum performance.

[NNN0LHI]

11. Wouldn't surprise me that they only paid $1,000 on a dressage saddle

In my experience the wealthy don't ever pay retail for anything. The people who actually do pay retail are also paying for what the wealthy buy at discounted prices.

The wealthy feel like retail prices are for the little people. All the wealthy people I know would act insulted if they were expected to pay what the rest of us pay for something.

Don

[riderinthestorm]

16. You can't buy these retail. The saddler flies out and creates it for the horse and rider

there's no way they would do it for free since saddlers are pretty much just regular guys (well, as "regular" as a saddler can be - they're artisans akin to guitar makers or swordsman). They don't make a fortune and wouldn't be able to afford to give away (or even deeply discount) any of their handcrafted items since they can only make a finite number of them in any given year.

I presume Jan Ebeling (and the horse Rafalca) is sponsored for a lot of free gear by other corporations that manufacture factory items like saddle pads or liniment or breeches but the saddle is in its own special niche. Such a vast quantity of information is transmitted from the rider's seat to the horse's back that its critical for it to be an exact fit for maximum performance especially at that level.

[NNN0LHI]

23. I agree that you and I can't buy these retail

But if some very wealthy person asks a saddle maker to sell them one at a discount for a favor down the road they will do it.

Suppose the saddle maker has a daughter who wants to break into the dressage hobby real bad, but she doesn't have any chance of doing it without the right connections. Wealthy people like the Romney's can make that kind of magic happen with a single phone call. It is normally referred to as, "Calling in a favor."

See how easy it is?

I have seen this kind of "deal", happen before. It is a very common thing.

Don

[riderinthestorm]

29. Oh I've seen it too but the saddle thing is a long shot

most everything else connected to equipping a horse - sure its very VERY likely. We use a guy named Richard Castelow (www.richardcastelow.com). No kids but even if he did, his connections are so, so far beyond "needing" the rMoneys to break into the biz that its just not that conceivable in my mind. A master saddler is typically a master rider as well and would pride themself on training up their own child (and horse).

[NNN0LHI]

31. It doesn't have to be a kid wanting to break into the hobby

I was just using that as an example.

Here is another example. Maybe the Romney's saddle maker had a friend or relative who got busted for drugs.

Same thing. All it takes is a phone call from Romney to one of his friends in the judicial system to have that case get misplaced.

The possibilities are endless.

But I am happy we both agree that this kind of thing does happen.



Don

[AllyCat]

42. I'm going to agree with rider...those saddles are custom and extremely expensive.

I doubt they got a deal on this. It's kind of a status thing too to talk about your "custom saddle" and how much it all cost and how long it took to make.

[OVERPAID01]

61. Bearing in mind the expenses were split 3 ways...

I am not in the horse business, but a very nice and elaborate saddle valued at 3k seems plausible, no one said the saddle was a dressage saddle.

[riderinthestorm]

85. Oh its a dressage saddle. Ann's a dressage queen of the highest order

Jan Ebeling is a dressage king operating at the top of his game. There are no other types of saddles in their tack room (I'd bet BIG money on that) and virtually every single one of them is a $10k custom made. Look, they're riding horses worth anywhere from $500k - $1 mill, they're not even going to sneeze at paying top dollar for the most integral piece of equipment required for maximum success.

The (very few) FEI level dressage horses we've sold all had custom saddles that went with the horse upon sale. Of course the new rider had her own saddle made up to suit her but to start, there would be very little changes made to the tack to ensure the smoothest transition in the beginning. Besides it takes some time for the new saddle to be made - gotta ride in something! Might as well be the "old" saddle....

As far as expenses, Jan Ebeling isn't paying a penny of the horse's expenses. None. Zip. Zilch. He's riding and training the horse - that's his portion of the contribution. Think of it this way - his training fees are probably in the range of $1500 - $2000/month. Plus extra $$$ for competitions. He's been training Rafalca for how many years? I don't know but its been years - probably a decade or more since she's 15. Plus him and his staff personally attend to her - big bucks there for that service He's been personally responsible for getting her to the fame and glory spot. Honestly, without him putting in a single cent, he's earned his third for sure imho but bottom line he's not paying any money out for that saddle. Ann and her other female partner are putting in the actual cash. Jan's putting in time and training and skills.

[cilla4progress]

68. I'm a "dressage rider" too

and that was my immediate reaction about the cost of her saddles!

Mine: $450 at the used tack store!

[AllyCat]

74. Know that feeling.

Someone just offered me $300 for the one I have that is quite used, but fits me and the horse. I did not accept the offer because I know how much it would cost me to replace. Maybe I should petition RMoney for a little charity to help me out, eh?

[cilla4progress]

84. same same!

[annabanana]

7. They get DEDUCTIONS for their horse hobbies?

I guess it's nice to be 1%-ers

[Rosa Luxemburg]

54. Which form can you claim deductions on dressage?

I have always wondered.

[jmowreader]

55. If you run dressage as a business, it goes on Form 1040 Schedule C

[Rosa Luxemburg]

56. I thought it was a sport?

Do they export the horses?

[antigone382]

73. You can compete for money.

Granted, I can't really figure how the winnings could possibly exceed the costs...but hypothetically I suppose you could run it as a money-losing business in order to deduct your losses from your earnings.

[AllyCat]

75. remember the days when the Olympics was for AMATEURS?

Now they can all be pro. Makes it tough to be a little guy and try to make a go of it because you are a good athlete.

[riderinthestorm]

88. You don't compete for money in dresssage. Their "business" model presumably revolves around sales

lessons and training.

And yes, you get quite a few years of running it on a loss before you have to show a profit. I just asked my husband if he knew the exact numbers (I believe its 6 years of running the biz with a loss before you have to show a profit for the IRS) but neither of us can remember the exact number since it's not something we have to think about (thank god and knock on wood).

Competition costs are akin to advertising for a horse business. Its the place where the barn showcases their rider/trainer (brings in clients for lessons/sales), showcases their horses in training or for sales (ka-ching), showcases the level of care they give the horses (brings in clients for boarding), showcases a sponsor's products if the rider/horse are sponsored.... You really never recoup competition costs with winning but it brings in larger intangible benefits that are magnitudes better.

[antigone382]

89. Thanks for the clarification.

I did a little amateur hunter riding when I was younger, and learned just a handful of the principles of dressage. As a kid I watched it and show jumping in the 3-day eventing portion of the 1996 Olympics, and have all kinds of respect for the art and rigor of the sport. As much as I understand folks scoffing at Ann Romney's dressage horse, I sure would love to have one just like it...I'll stick to my two rangy, ornery old Arab-crosses for now.

[slackmaster]

83. Schedule A, line 23 if it's a hobby. Schedule C if it's a business.

Search for "hobby."

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p529/ar02.html

[cantbeserious]

8. He And His Family Are Just Practicing Their Lordship Skills - It's In The Memo

eom

[Frustratedlady]

9. No wonder he's balking on showing his tax returns

The US would be in deep trouble if we all deducted our expenses for extra curricular activities. Since she was doing this to aid her MS, was it medical expense?

I've read the requirements for deducting expenses for horses...not because I have one, but because they were so complicated and ridiculous it was comical. No matter your situation, you could find one of those descriptions that would fit.

[riderinthestorm]

10. I've been audited 3 times in 25 years. Horse businesses are targeted by the IRS

because so many people try to launder money through them.

Like I said, I'm very interested in seeing their return now.

[malthaussen]

18. Almost sounds like the competitions are set up deliberately to provide a tax shelter.

Is there any way a horse could make a profit for the owners?

-- Mal

[Tom Ripley]

19. I think that you are on to something

that makes a great deal of sense

[riderinthestorm]

22. I can only tell you from my experience. The competitions we've run have made money

because we work like mad and do a lot of the work ourselves. Most competition organizers aren't in it to lose money. As far as a tax shelter, I guess there are some things you could shield but since I've been audited so much (and now have to have a tax attorney do our taxes for an enormous amount of money ) we simply never, ever think of how to cheat the system.

A stallion could conceivably (heh) make money with breeding. A performance horse mare might as well (they harvest her eggs and do everything via surrogacy which is possible in the sport horse breeding, not racing TBs mind you). But making money by competing as a sport horse? No way. Most competitions don't offer enough prize money to reward anyone for their time and cost to get there.

For us, prize money isn't our main goal in competing although that's always nice. FWIW, we've NEVER made enough in prize money to match our expenditures and we're one of the more "successful" ones out there. We compete because its akin to advertising for us - it demonstrates the capabilities of the trainer (brings in clients), it sells horses (the horse performs well, it brings in more money when its sold), it illustrates the care and level of quality in maintaining the horses (brings in more boarders for our business).

As a sponsored pair, it's possible Jan Ebeling and Rafalca are making some money from the corporations that pay them to "wear" their brands (think Nascar drivers). But dressage is such a tradition bound sport, there's no way they can have the logos splashed all over them during competitions so the advertising revenues would be similarly muted (you'd see a muted brand logo on the saddle pad perhaps). Back at the barn those logos would be prominent but at the top level shows like the rMoneys are attending, the stabling is severely restricted to prevent doping of the animals and to ensure their security so the regular Janes of dressage fandom world would never see that.

[malthaussen]

28. I have a friend working around the business

But he works so hard, we hardly ever talk anymore. He mentioned how the farm's best stud was racking up $2,500 a throw.

Man, I wish I could make that.

Thanks for the response. It's interesting info.

[magical thyme]

49. we had family friends that used their race horse hobby as a tax shelter

They wrapped it up as a subsidiary or something along those lines, under their profitable businesses.

[eridani]

59. No matter what the topic on DU

--there is usually some sort of expert in the area with the inside story. Thanks so much for this perspective.

[bklyncowgirl]

60. I've never looked into Anne's horse activities but I suppose selling a horse or two could help.

High end dressage horses cost big bucks.

The lady whose horse, Union Rags, won the Belmont Stakes had to sell the horse as a yearling because her accountant told her if she didn't make some money the IRS was going to declare her farm a hobby. She later repented and spent three times what she sold him for to get him back. Obviously this gamble paid off very well for her. I imagine with Union Rags as a sire her horse business will be in the black for quite some time.

I suppose that if Ann's horse business wasn't making enough to keep the IRS happy she could sell a horse or two. Highly trained dressage horses cost big bucks--maybe even enough to put her in the black for a year or two.

[lonestarnot]

24. Business as usual.

Carry on.

[tanyev]

12. I'm thinking Rafalca's going to get a lot of media attention at the Olympics this year.

Don't know if that's good or bad.

[Scurrilous]

14. K & R

[hfojvt]

17. as a kid, I watched a number of Olympics

I can remember the Sphinks brothers, Sugar Ray Leonard, Boom-boom Mancini, Mark Spitz, Bruce Jenner, Mary Lou Retton, Nadia Comaneci, Alexi Greywall, Carl Lewis, even Eric Heiden from the boring winter Olympics, but I never knew that dressage was an Olympic event.

Apparently the Germans and the Dutch own that event http://www.databaseolympics.com/sport/sportevent.htm?sp=EQU&enum=150 . Although I was kinda confused about FRG winning medals before 1988. I thought maybe that was the French, or maybe French Gabon or Guinea. It couldn't be the BRD.

Heck, one of the awesome olympic champions even has a wikipedia page, although they do not say what FRH stands for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigolo_FRH

Free Range Horse maybe? Free Ride Horse? Focking Rich Hobby?

[riderinthestorm]

26. FRH means he's a registered Hanoverian sporthorse. Its a breed association.

But yeah, Frocking Rich Hobby works too since owning a horse like this costs big bucks

[rks306]

20. A tax deduction

Wait a minute. They get a tax deduction for owning a horse. I guess the Rep. call them job creators. Who wrote into tax law.

[GeorgeWW3]

21. But he's a job creator

for Mexicans he wants deported who sleep in the stables and shovel the shit. Get them out of there, he's in an election year for Pete's sake. GOP Lyin' and Cryin' and Dyin' RIP.

[riderinthestorm]

27. Honestly, looking into his Mexican labor force for his horses IS probably a sure fire thing

for any reporter who thinks of it.

The horse world is kept running by the hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants who do the hardest work possible.

I'd bet money Mitt and Ann have undocumented immigrants on the barn staff.

[Bohunk68]

33. A BIG THANK YOU

for all the information you have provided on this thread. I was totally ignorant of the subject, your info has helped a lot for me to understand what is being discussed in this thread.

[OVERPAID01]

62. Highly unlikely

The value and prestige of the horses go hand in hand with the trainers and supporters associated with the horse. There is no way immigrants will come anywhere near these horses, reputation is everything at this level of competition.

[uponit7771]

71. Please send this point to someone who can look it up...

[Marr]

30. Hey cool, I should be able to deduct my videogames.

[Rose Siding]

32. 1000 recs. SO out of touch.

I LOVE horses but I can't afford one for me OR for that moocher.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

35. But think of all the jobs created.

What would all the pooper scoopers do if the Rmoney's couldn't get a tax deduction on their horses?

[treestar]

37. I had thought you couldn't take deductions for hobbies!

I guess the Rmoneys disguised it as a business.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

39. Here's a copy of the full text of the Romney 203 page tax return

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/romney-2010-tax-return.html

You can click the arrows on the right to go back and for through the pages. The Romneys run their horse business under the name of "Rob Rom Enterprises LLC" and you can see it listed on their Schedule E at page 19 of the return. Page 82 shows the $77,000 deduction. Does Rob Rom stand for "robber Romney, I wonder? So they are operating their horse Rafalca as a Limited Liability Corporation. Apparently, corporations are people and they are horses, too.

[Bonhomme Richard]

40. Well, someone had to be paid to dress them. LOL n/t

[fishwax]

41. Wow. I'd like to see that number spread far and wide.

[dimbear]

43. There's some misunderstanding about this All-American sport. If you're thinking of

furries or Secretariat on The Late Late Show, you're off the track. Dressage is more like teaching actual horses to dance, or do incredibly complicated fancy steps, stuff like that. It's not some prissy goofy thing like basketball.

It's something Americans can identify with, and it's a chance to remind everybody about Ann Romney's MS.

Plus it's thrilling to think the Romneys own an Olympic athlete. Not plantation own, you know, the horse.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

44. I find it disgusting to live in a world that allows this kind of thing. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Hmm I'd better start to itemize my hobbies too

you think the IRS will let me do that? I swear, it is only a few hundred bucks a year... or the camera, I mean I could deduct it as a pro expense...

Ooops don't make enough to be able to do that.

Ok THEY ITEMIZE THE HORSE... Really. Must be nice

[Mz Pip]

46. I know artists who

claim deductions for their materials but then they have to claim a profit every 3 years. Sometimes it's just not worth the effort.

I guess I need to change my "hobby" to something really really lucrative, like horse dancing.

I also do a lot of volunteer work for a local animal rescue group. I've never been given the impression I could deduct my out of pocket expenses for cat food, flea medicine the occasional vet bill.

[Retrograde]

52. You might be able to deduct your expenses

If the animal rescue group is a 501(c)3 or similar organization and you can show that the expenses were incurred on their behalf, and (big if) your income is large enough that it makes it worthwhile to itemize charitable donations, you may be able to deduct them - but make sure you keep good records.

We once deducted a trip to Hawai'i: we were able to show that we had been asked to run a hospitality suite for a conference run by a 501(c)3 organization, that that was our primary reason for going, and that we spent between 8 and 12 hours a day doing work related to said conference. We no longer have the income to make such writeoffs worthwhile, alas, but rest assured that there are a lot of people taking advantage of this charitable perk.

[Buns_of_Fire]

48. I think the average lifespan of a horse is 25-30 years

@RafalcaRomney (yes, she has her own Twitter account ) is 15 ( http://news.yahoo.com/ann-romneys-horse-rafalca-heads-london-olympics-181405853--abc-news-politics.html ) -- what we have here is a depreciating asset. So I wonder if they're taking straight-line depreciation, or have they opted for the accelerated method...

To Weird Willard and others of his ilk, the entire world can be divided into "assets" and "liabilities."

[Buns_of_Fire]

50. Fancy Horse Steppin' is an Olympic event and Fancy Pageant Walkin' ISNT?

No wonder Sarah Palin is always so upset.

She coulda been a contenda.

[NMDemDist2]

51. so i can take off loses for my pet dogs too?

[BlueToTheBone]

53. I didn't think hobbies were tax deductible. n/t

[Rhiannon12866]

58. Since when do you get a tax deduction for owning a horse?!

[bklyncowgirl]

66. Here's how. Have your trainer sell a lame horse to some sucker for six figures. NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/us/politics/ann-romneys-hobby-spotlights-world-of-dressage.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

Now of course the buyer was a damn fool for using the seller's agent's vet to do the pre-sale examination and these sort of things go on in the horse world all the time--still it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

[LeftyMom]

77. The Romneys have been pulling variations on that scam for a long time.

When was the last time you saw an AMC car on the road?

[yellowcanine]

67. Isn't this basically a hobby? Would a regular person without fancy tax lawyers be able to write off

their hobby this way?

[KurtNYC]

70. Prince Romney requires dressage horses, car elevators and many other things

that us peasants would not understand. Being entitled royalty and waiting for your turn to take power is not a hobby, it's a lifestyle.

[LeftyMom]

80. Unless it was a very expensive hobby it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble.

I'm surprised they're not claiming the horse as a medical expense since she keeps saying she rides as a treatment for her MS. That, btw, pisses me off royally, because it's idiotic and entitled, and I'm only willing to overlook one or the other.

[gaspee]

69. Wow

I am speechless...

[jtuck004]

72. He got a bigger deduction for a hobby horse than most people are paid for their work in a year. n/t

[slackmaster]

79. That factoid puts things into perspective

[jtuck004]

82. In -some- conversations I try to look for opportunities like that. Hard to open a window into a mind

but if you can just slip that through the crack...

[lonestarnot]

87. K & R