Can a white guy even discuss BLM at all?

[cleveramerican]

I am a 50something white guy from a white suburb.
I cannot recall another political issue I have felt this way about.
It seems like a political/emotional porcupine, no way to approach.
That seems wrong

[bigwillq]

1. You can discuss anything you want to discuss

Some will agree with you, some won't.

[yeoman6987]

38. Couldn't have said it better

[Bernardo de La Paz]

84. Exactly. It's called free speech. Solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship

... generally. There are important exceptions where censorship is necessary, but they basically boil down to cases involving auxiliary crimes such as child exploitation for porn, incitement to riot, creating panic leading to injury ("fire" in a crowded theater), etc.

[yuiyoshida]

135. Last I heard, this country still has

Freedom of Speech. That may not be, if Trump becomes President.

[demmiblue]

2. Of course you can.

Most of the comments about BLM on DU are from white folks.

BUT, it pays to sincerely listen to other non-white voices.

[Politicub]

3. As long as it's a discussion and not an excuse to criticize

Questions, like, "how can I be a better ally?" are a constructive way to engage in discussion.

Statements and judgy posts are not.

For example, calling an important issue an emotional porcupine sounds judgmental.

Does that help?

[NobodyHere]

5. Why can't a white person criticize BLM?

Is BLM perfect?

[Politicub]

9. Put your cards on the table

We're waiting.

[NobodyHere]

10. So you're just going to avoid the question.

Have a nice day

[VulgarPoet]

35. It's not perfect, no, but that still doesn't give you a right to criticize.

The most you've probably seen of the struggle is watching Omar Epps on the Wire.

[NobodyHere]

41. The 1st Amendment gives me the right to criticize anything I want

[Hekate]

48. Civility at DU puts reasonable bounds on speech. Don't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater...

...unless there is one or you are about to pull the trigger.

Right?

[NobodyHere]

55. Yelling "fire" in a theater

and criticizing BLM aren't the same thing.

[frankieallen]

140. I'm not so sure...

[VulgarPoet]

56. I'm not disputing that, I should have clarified myself-- I'm saying you've got no grounds to.

No ground with which to stand on for your "criticism" to carry any kind of meaningful weight.

[brush]

91. Absolutely right. So go ahead already.

[democrattotheend]

132. Bullshit

Are you saying it's not ok to criticize violence? On a Democratic site?

I doubt BLM actually started the violence, FWIW. I would not be at all surprised if the aggitators are Trump plants.

[cleveramerican]

25. see#14

[Caliman73]

13. Anyone can criticize anything.

When you put it out there however, you are subject to interpretation, so you better have a pretty good argument.

[Marr]

30. +1, Well said.

[kcr]

20. I get the feeling some want to criticize without any feedback.

Anything short of agreement and its, "Why can't a white person criticize, huh?" It does not come from a place of wanting to learn or discuss.

[cleveramerican]

27. I am pretty critical all the time

its my nature

[kcr]

53. There's nothing wrong with that.

But you have to acknowledge that's a two way street. There's a difference between examining things with a critical eye and what I mentioned.

[mythology]

34. As opposed to saying white people can contribute by

Asking how to be a better ally? It presumes that BLM is right on any given issue and doesn't exactly work towards learning or discussion. You may get the feeling that some want to criticize without feedback, but you're doing exactly that yourself.

I personally find BLM to be reactionary and don't wait to learn facts before deciding if a protest is warranted. There are times when they are right, and times when they are wrong, but they let their politics rather than the facts lead them.

[kcr]

47. By pointing out that some don't want feedback, I'm doing exactly that myself?

How does that work, exactly? I'm not following the logic there.

So, your personal definition of reactionary is a group that protests even though they aren't 100 percent correct on their facts every time. Can you give me an example of a group that is?

[Orrex]

42. That's an admirably concise (and correct) summation.

[Buzz cook]

32. Sure we can. Here's one

Black Lives Matter is to disparate. Meaning it lacks central organizing ability and common goals.
While there is something to be said about local autonomy in BLM, imho they would be stronger with at least a skeletal national organization.

So there, I a white guy have criticized BLM. If I'm wrong someone will tell me so.

[ColemanMaskell]

130. Thanks for spelling out that BLM is not Bureau of Land Management

Buzz cook, Thanks for that. I was about to go and Google it. I thought it might be something about the Native American protests about the pipeline, or something like that. So BLM in this case means Black Lives Matter.

I'll throw in my own two cents. Constructive criticism is generally a good thing (on any topic), whereas ranting disjointed complaints don't seem to accomplish anything of value that I can make out. Some white people might have a lot of information and insight on the topic (hypothetically), and if so they might as well share it.

For example I can imagine some white person with police force experience contributing the information that in some cases the police unions are trying to stand in the way of constructive changes to policy, procedure, training.

Or they might be able to tell us that in some places a police culture of near total lack of accountability causes the job to be attractive to candidates who are corrupt and/or sociopathic bullies by nature, in the same way that a career working with children is a magnet for child molesters; I think it was Wilhelm Reich, a psychiatrist himself, who told us based on observation (when he was an inmate) that the Nazi prison guards were, in most cases, sadists in the clinical psychological sense. People seek out jobs that allow them to do the things they like to do and are good at.

Or maybe this hypothetical informed white guy he might just be able to tell us that more training is needed.

James Surowiecki is a white guy and he commented on the topic to good effect a few days ago:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/19/why-are-police-unions-blocking-reform

[Ken Burch]

126. No. But as whites, we are at least indirectly complicit in creating the conditions

that made BLM necessary.

It was white society and white voters that demanded the hardline law enforcement, police training and correctional policies (with the overwhelming majority of white Democratic politicians enthusiastically joining Republicans in implementing those policies) that have left most people of color in this country living in mortal terror of the possibility of any encounters with the police.

We are responsible for being part of the solution. None of us with white skin can ever have the moral authority to criticize or attack BLM for much of anything. We simply aren't entitled.

[NobodyHere]

139. That's BS

I'm responsible for my own actions and not for other people. I'm entitled to criticize whatever I want because I'm capable of observing and forming opinions and we have the first amendment.

Are black people responsible for everything other black people have done? No, we're all human beings.

[Ken Burch]

141. It's not that simple when we talk about racial power dynamics.

All of us with white skin benefit(whether we wish to or not)from the heritage of white supremacism. A lot of white keep trying to avoid talking about this because we don't want to acknowledge that.

And since we are beneficiaries of institutional oppression, we have no moral authority to criticize the tactics and attitudes of the oppressed.

We will need to earn that by consciously being part of the solution.

[NobodyHere]

142. It really is simple

I don't have any responsibility for other peoples' decisions because they share the same skin color as me.

I have every right as an American to criticize whoever the hell I want. I will criticize anyone who thinks that because they have a cause that they can assault others, loot stores, and start fires.

[Caliman73]

4. I am not Black and I discuss Black Lives Matter all the time.

Of course I am a person of color who has experienced bigotry and discrimination, and I support Black Lives Matter so I have no fear of talking about the movement.

What exactly makes you hesitant to discuss the topic?

[cleveramerican]

6. I am not in lock step agreement

and anything less is assumed to be racist

Racist is too easy to hurl and too hard to refute

[smorkingapple]

8. ok, you dont have to be. Why aren't you? What are the substantive critiques you can offer?

Start there and then we can chat more.

[Caliman73]

12. Not true. Racist ideas are assumed to be racist

I don't agree with some of what the movement has and has not done.

Your use of "lock step" sounds a bit concerning though. Perhaps that is why you are hesitant?

[Orrex]

19. ^^That.

[Marengo]

28. Meh, why care? Consider the source of an accusation of racism. I was condemned as a...

"Genetic racist" by an AA for nothing more than being Anglo. I didn't waste a moment to refute and ignored that individual from that point forward. Anyone, regardless of race, can be bigot.

[uponit7771]

94. By whom are you in lock step with? Some meaning one or two? tia

[Ken Burch]

127. So what you are really asking, I think, is "can a white person call out BLM on anything?"

That's up to BLM. If they feel you can't, that's the last word. You aren't a victim and you're not being oppressed.

What it comes down to is this, I think:

THEIR lives are at stake. Your life and my life aren't. Our skin color protects us.

At this point I'd like to ask any AA posters in the thread if I'm somewhere near the ball park on this.

[tenderfoot]

7. Do you want to share an unpopular opinion regarding race relations?

It seems that you're getting ready to.

[cleveramerican]

14. don't ya think...

it started out as one thing and has become something else.
which normally always happen to movements
it becomes a brand name ,copywrited and ends up in the hands of very smooth professionals


I think BLM is right at the place where that happens

[haele]

29. Well, maybe, maybe not.

Media says one thing. The BLM umbrella organization says another. Other radical groups on social media say something totally different.

And local BLM organizations operate in their own ways in accordance with their own community organization goals and foci.
Some BLM organizations support police and community communications. Some run gang-interdiction/rehabilitation programs. Some run food kitchens and job training/searches. Some organizations work with churches and local community support organizations. Some focus on minority rights in general. Some focus solely on blacks and the the prejudices endemic in the judicial system.
Some BLM organizations are only about a big, radical, "F*** the Man!".

Are you wanting to discuss the national organization, your local organizations, or the media creation?

Haele

[cleveramerican]

33. how knitted together are they?

[haele]

45. Not very. As with Occupy, the media is trying to drive a narrative on the BLM organization.

While the BLM organization does provide a clearinghouse for "Call to Arms", the local groups pretty much call the shots.
Also, if you've ever been to a BLM rally, there's often a widely diverse collection of other area social groups that will often get involved - so much so that often times, the local organizations will point out the "outsiders" to police to keep an eye on during their rallies.

The Media is just salivating to make BLM out to be the new, new, new Black Panthers spin-off, or Weather Underground. Scaring the rural citizens with images of a Watts type race war riot is just what the ratings Gods ordered!

Here's another question we all should be asking ourselves - and of the media -
Should, say, a group of Black Block anarchists coming in from outside the state just to "shake things up at night" be considered part of the local BLM when they're protesting an endemic pattern of DWB stops and illegal search and seizures?
Likewise, should a group of out of state sovereign citizens/neo-Nazis who are trying to co-opt the protest be considered part of the local conservative group rally over a local development v. environmental situation?

The Media loves them some conflict, so when you're actually looking at potential issues with any political group, you actually have to go to both the "national" and local websites of those organizations to really find out what they are all about.

Haele

[cleveramerican]

60. the less cohesive these disparate groups are...

the he more ease pro's have jumping out in front of the parade.
Has the phrase "black lives matter" been copywrited? I'd bet it is.
Who owns it and what effect would that have on your support?

[haele]

68. Names and branding mean little anymore. Anyone can purchase a domain or organization.

The question you're asking is whether or not the intellectual ownership is in place to legally claim naming rights and then say "That's Me!".

Y'know, if someone claims to have "bought" the rights BLM, and claims to actually "speak" for the organization as a whole, or enforces policies within that organization, I'd be highly skeptical; the movement and it's recognized "name" existed before "someone" would have tried to own the copyright for it. Similar to the various "Occupy" movements. The only people with a claim to trademark BLM or Occupy are the original organizers who were in the room and voted on the name of their movement. And if just one person that was at that meeting says "no", then BLM and Occupy remain in the public domain.

See, most people who aren't in business don't understand that copyright and trademark laws are specific; you can't "own" rights to something that's already in common use. That's why so many different hair and nail salons can have the same puns for a business name (how many mom-n-pop "A Cut Above" hair salons have you seen throughout the US?) - just not in the same tax location.

Or so I learned in my Business Law 342 course.

Haele

[cleveramerican]

71. thank you

I was thinking about Dick Armey/ Sarah Palin and the tea party

[Brickbat]

80. Oh god, you're a hipster, aren't you.

[cleveramerican]

85. i have no idea what a "hipster" is in 2016

I knew what one was back in 1985

[Ken Burch]

128. Why didn't you just make THAT your OP?

The way your started this, it almost sounded like you were trying to see if people would call you a racist no matter what you posted-as if you were actually hoping for some kind of a confrontation.

[VulgarPoet]

36. When a "criticism" starts with "I'm not racist, but..."

then somewhere near 90% of the time, whatever comes out of the "criticizer's" mouth is about to either be racist or whitesplained as hell.

[tonedevil]

52. My experience...

exactly.

[Iggo]

11. That's kind of the point.

[Taitertots]

15. What are you concerned about?

I talk about it regularly without any negative ramifications.

Not rhetorically. What do you think is going to happen when you talk about it?

[TCJ70]

16. You'll be be told you just need to listen...

...no talking allowed.

[Wednesdays]

87. Link?

[TCJ70]

113. It just happened in the post below yours...n/t

[TCJ70]

138. More:

Post #137: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8179767
Post #133 and 136: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028177948#post133

[Codeine]

108. That may not be the worst advice we could be given.

This thread illustrates that.

[haele]

17. Sure. Just bear in mind it's part of a life or death situation a lot of people face-

It's not just a clash of opinions. You may find that airing an opinion may get piled on from people who are either living a different reality than you are, or feel the need to speak for those who are living a different reality.

Also, make sure you're actually discussing the subject in the classical practice of discussion, not in the "I've got a right to my opinion no matter how weak, and any disagreement or difference is wrong and must be destroyed" type of modern Punditry that passes for discussion these days.

Definitions of Discussion:
from the Late Latin: discussionem,- "inquiry, examination"; earlier: discussus (classic Latin) - "to shake".

I tend to consider myself discussing topics in the manner described these two definitions -
Google -
"The action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas."
Dictionary.com -
"the examination or consideration of a matter in speech or writing"

Anything else is just opinion-airing or positing.

Good luck if you're actually trying to bring something to the discussion, and examine how it actually fits in the physical reality the BLM movement is trying to address. And keep your emotional "skin" thick enough so that you aren't automatically reacting to something you think was directed to you; listen more than you speak. There's always something to learn...

Haele
(Pontification)

[LanternWaste]

18. I've found it's better for me during many topics of discussion to listen with both sincerity and...

I've found it's better for me during many topics of discussion to listen with both sincerity and an open mind much, much more than I speak.

There are many things in life I need to be educated about before I speak with any semblance of authority or relevance; much like in school, my learning was predicated on listening rather than digging my feet in... though that never seemed wrong to me.

[get the red out]

23. +1

Me too.

[Lint Head]

21. It seems to me that being online, anonymous and not knowing

the race of the person you are having a debate or discussion with would make for a better discussion or debate. .

[Orrex]

24. I talk about it frequently

Disclaimer: I'm an average white male. Well, devastatingly handsome of course, but demographically average.

I cannot recall another political issue I have felt this way about.
It seems like a political/emotional porcupine, no way to approach.

It may depend on the setting and context of your discussions. For instance, if you're in a group of mildly to strongly racist white people, then it might be appropriate to advocate on behalf of Black Lives Matter, if only to counterbalance the propaganda that they've no doubt absorbed from Fox, etc. Also, it will give you a chance to explain why "All Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter" are attempts to belittle and invalidate the very real issues raised by the BLM movement.

If, however, you're in a more diverse crowd, then it would be better (as a self-described "50something white guy from a white suburb&quot to keep quiet and listen to what others have to say about it, especially those personally invested in the movement or affected by the issues that BLM addresses.

That seems wrong

If your intent is to debunk or contradict the positions held by BLM, then that would indeed be wrong. But if your goal is to understand the movement and to support its participants, then that can only be right.

[mythology]

37. It is mind boggling to me that people think it's okay

To say it's wrong to criticize positions held by a group. It makes them sound helpless that they require being held in some protective bubble because they aren't actually able to defend their positions. How is it any less wrong than cops saying people protesting them are inherently out of line?

[Orrex]

39. A few questions are in order:

Last edited Wed Sep 21, 2016, 04:13 PM - Edit history (1)

It is mind boggling to me that people think it's okay to say it's wrong to criticize positions held by a group.

1. What is the goal of such criticism? Is to express sincere, legitimate concerns about the group, or is the goal to attack the group under the guise of "expressing concerns?" I have seen the latter many more times that I have seen the former.

2. How is such criticism expressed? Is it put forth in a way that comes across as correcting the group? Or is it a sincere, legitimate attempt to strengthen the group's position? I have seen the former far more often than the latter.

3. What will be the impact of the criticism? Will it improve your understanding? Will it improve the group's understanding? Will it improve others' understanding of the group? Will it strengthen the group's position? Clearly this will depend in large measure upon the way you express your criticism, but I have seldom (or never) seen the group or the critic benefit from the criticism.

4. Why do you feel the need to criticize the movement? Is the group actually doing something wrong? Or is the criticism intended to show that you know "better" than group? Are you (in this case) "white-splaining" to the group?

5. Frankly, does your criticism matter to anyone except you? If you keep your mouth shut, will the group be harmed by your silence in anyway? Will others be harmed by your silence? Who, and how so? Would others benefit from your non-silence? Who, and how so?


No group is above criticism, but all parties do not have equal credibility in voicing their criticism of the group. Nor should all criticism be given equal respect. You are an anonymous online schlub, as am I. As such, you and I are in no position to give credible criticism of BLM nor to expect that anyone will necessarily see any merit in our criticism. You might be "right" in your criticism, but so what? If you can't express it in a way that promotes understanding, then no one will pay any attention to your criticism, nor should they.

You will be much better served by thoughtful listening than by righteous criticism.

[irisblue]

62. Orrex, what an excellent list.

[Orrex]

79. Thanks!

[gratuitous]

26. I'm a late 50's white guy myself

I've decided that this might be one of those issues where I'll be better served by listening and understanding rather than talking.

[ghostsinthemachine]

31. I am 61 white as a sheet and live in lily white land

And the subject comes up frequently. Lot of "all people matter" sentiment, even among the mexican Americans. I try to be civil and explain what BLM is REALLY about. And I can usually get through and show them how they are working within the community to make things better, on both sides of the coin.
But the hard core Limbaugh FOX headers are convinçed that BLM are a redux of the Black Panthers or are terrorists. Nothing gets through to them.

[Caliman73]

58. Black Panthers

The problem with that sentiment is how those same Fox people have such a distorted view of the Panthers because of how they have been smeared after they were infiltrated and neutralized.

The problem is being so confident you are correct despite being so misinformed.

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. You're so oppressed!

[dembotoz]

43. old white guy...have not experienced it but i have seen it

nobody shot but i have seen discrimination
i HAVE seen driving while black...temp agency i my town moved to the freeway cause minority employees would not come to the main office anymore because they kept getting pulled over on the 2 miles road between the freeway and the old office.
I HAVE seen lessor white candidates get jobs over more qualified minorities

[Sunny05]

95. Amen ...

I have seen discrimination, too. White people do not know what it's like to live life being treated as a supposed suspect or criminal day in, day out. And I mean day in, day out, just doing normal every day things like shopping or driving.

[mercuryblues]

44. Maybe

you don't feel this way about another political issue is because blacks not wanting to get killed by cops really isn't a political issue at all. It is a human issue.

[ileus]

46. Only if you're in total agreement.

[Wednesdays]

88. Link?

[melman]

93. What do you mean 'link'?

It's all over this fucking thread.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. I have an opinion about abusive police departments.

In fact, I claim as a citizens right, my perogative to have an opinion about those departments and the way they go about training and recruiting officers.

Officers are trained that officer safety is job 1. By definition, this means that public safety can be no higher than a secondary goal. Even infantrymen are trained to comply with rules of engagement. The only apparent rule for police officers is "if you're afraid - shoot to kill"

I think that's the root cause of these killings.

I think that racism (cops are more likely to be afraid, and suspicious, of black men) is a separate, related issue.

Both are important, but the former is about life, death and the purpose of laws and law enforcement, and is immediately addressable.

[MineralMan]

50. For me, since I cannot experience the same issues,

I prefer to listen, rather than speak. I can try to learn and discover ways I can help. That's it.

[Orrex]

51. It's funny...

There seem to be two prevailing (and largely incompatible) sentiments in the current discussion:

1. I will do more good by listening, rather than by criticizing

2. FUCK THAT!* MY OPINION IS CORRECT & NO ONE CAN TELL ME NOT TO EXPRESS IT!!!!1!


I find myself inclined to favor option #1.




[font size=1]* Yes, this is a straw man and a caricature; no one has literally expressed this sentiment[/font]

[MineralMan]

61. So it seems.

I'm not really sure what I could bring to a discussion of BLM other than a partial understanding of why it exists.

I'm not black. I have never had the experiences so many people have had. Therefore, I can't understand exactly what the issues are, as experienced by the black community. What could I add to the discussion? I can, however, listen and try to understand.

[cleveramerican]

78. is comenting and criticizing the same thing?

for many it is

[Iggo]

54. I tell you what. Answer this question with a simple Yes or No.

Do black lives matter?

[cleveramerican]

65. of course they do

They matter more to some than others.
If they matter more to you than me
does that give you some insight I CANNOT comprehend

[haele]

90. Ah, the telling answer. You don't know why BLM was formed.

BLM stands for Black Lives Matter, also.
-Not -
Black Lives Matter more.

The other focus on BLM deals the increased militarization of the police and justice system.

It's because of a disparity in the way a black man or woman is viewed in the criminal justice system.
It's because there's an automatic assumption that black people are more likely to be on welfare, are more likely to be criminal, are more likely not be well off, less likely to be "motivated" and smart - so that any time a black person is driving a nice car, or is walking in a nice neighborhood, or is looking for a job after having gotten a graduate degree, they're a fraud.
It's because for the most part, black lives are socially negligible.

I'm a old white woman who has lived in a barrio, and in the 'hood. I've seen the results of an automatic official assumption that a 12 year old black child walking down the street is a 19-year old.

I've witnessed my 50 year old clean-shaven black man who was all of 5'8" stopped and forcibly questioned - to the point of handcuffs - just for walking down the street. Because he was thought to be "the suspect" in a robbery committed by a 20ish bearded black man who was over 6 ft. at the strip mall just down the way. Yes, he sued, but still...stopped, questioned, and handcuffed because - what, he wasn't deferential enough?

I've both witnessed and heard about multiple instances of DWB (Driving while Black) - including from my welder, who was a former Sheriff's deputy - he was constantly getting stopped for "no brake lights" or other questionable reasons because he was driving around in the wrong neighborhoods with either his nice F-150 or his BMW.

So....
Black lives don't matter more. But - they should be respected and matter as much as every other life. The go-to assumption on seeing someone's skin color shouldn't be a decision that they are a criminal, and deserve to be treated like disposable social scum.

Look, if you as a white person, or brown person, or man, or woman, don't want your very existence to be so broad-brushed in a social category that your normal actions are viewed as bordering on criminal, then you shouldn't stand for it when you see that another group. And as an adult, you should understand that eventually, people are going to fight back when they're being mistreated.
I think that's a lot of the fear some white people have of BLM. They can't believe that after the negligence society in general has allowed to govern certain people simply because of the color of their skin or cultural groups they've been forced to associate with, we haven't had a race war yet...

Hierarchal privilege actually becomes a heavier burden the lower in the hierarchy you are; especially if you don't have enough money to buy and protect your position in the social pecking order. People become more fearful of protecting their positions the lower they are. (LBJ understood this very well...)

And finally, from the perspective of being retired military, and one in a leadership position - if someone is so afraid of dealing with the public that they can't do so in a professional manner, then they don't need to be doing in a public job.
Under the UCMJ, my uniform never absolved me from taking responsibility for my actions. Nor should a badge.

Haele

[cleveramerican]

92. Can BLM jump to conclusions ?

can they get it horribly wrong in some cases and be exactly right in others?
can I notice when that happens?



I sincerely believe the millions of black americans who KNOW
they are treated more harshly by the police
they know it so well they teach it to their kids out of genuine need to

[haele]

98. Everyone can jump to conclusions. Do you hold BLM to a higher standard than the police?

Even the federal government gets it horribly wrong in some cases, and exactly right in others.

I'm not going to go into perfection of an organization. I go through that with my stepdaughter, to whom perfection is constantly the enemy of any optimal good in her life.
She wastes more time, resources, and relationships trying for "perfection" and avoidance of the slightest flaws, instead of aiming for optimal and working to learn and improve the whole of her life.
By requiring perfection, she's avoiding change and having to grow up and take responsibility to fix what needs to be fixed in her life.

Same with people who put down organizations that are "distasteful" out of hand. Look for the optimal good, work to correct the flaws.

Okay - final discussion

Point of order - BLM is a grassroots organization that is just starting out.

If you look at the history of the ACLU or the SPLC - other "checks and balances" organizations out there to investigate egregious governmental and/or societal "jumps to conclusions", you'll notice that some of the same questions were asked of those organizations at the time they were starting to stand up and make some noise.

Hell, my folks were called Commies by family members for supporting the ACLU, just as the people marching with BLM are being called thugs and anarchist by conservative social media, and the people who were out supporting Occupy were called slacker hippies.

If you are looking for an honest opinion, from a historical analysis, BLM is developing to be potentially more like Greenpeace than they would be the ACLU.

Sigh. Trying to keep this on discussion level, not on a "discussionist" emotional poo throwing level.

Haele

[cleveramerican]

104. i appreciate your thoughts on this

i would say that the inner workings of BLM is more of a mystery to me than the inner workings of the police dept, court system,etc

[philosslayer]

112. Yes

I hold BLM in higher regard than the police. Is that straightforward enough?

[Sunny05]

102. With regard to this & original post ...

With regard to this post: in general, for any entity (or individual, for that matter), of course it is possible to be wrong in some cases, right in others.

With regard to original post as well as this one:
1) Above suggestions about listening & learning are good.
2) Sometimes asking a question helps. (I'm wondering about ... and then describe scenario you think they are wrong about.) If asked neutrally and objectively, it may be better received than an outright criticism.
3) Sometimes a person has to let go and accept it if his/her criticism (or question) is not well received. Just like you have an opinion and get to express it, so do they. I don't mean that harshly. But that's the way it is. So, some things you just have to let go of. Related to this ...
3a) The person/people you're talking to may not want your opinion or any white person's opinion. ... OR ...
3b) they may think (whether right or wrong) that you are lumping together all who participate in or support BLM as having the same mindset, words, behaviors -- and may be reacting to being lumped together rather than being seen as an individual. Or they may be reacting to BLM being seen as one big mass of black-sameness rather than being seen as a large, complex movement full of diverse individuals. This has to do with a perception of "others" being different from oneself. (Hey, not all Italians know each other, not all women have the same favorite color, etc.).

BTW, If the person/group you are speaking to think 3b, they're unlikely to think anything you say has merit. And if they do think 3b, I cannot blame them (b/c of life, not you); chances are it is due to their life experiences -- the harsh lessons they have had thrown their way every day. And they hear these criticisms, well intended or not, so often, that the beginning phrase of the criticism is something they've heard many times already and the stress levels just set in.

I suppose I could have left this at, "sometimes you just have to let it go". If they're supposed to be man/woman enough to take criticism, then be man enough to take their feedback, even if it also is criticism.

[Iggo]

96. I find some people can't or won't answer that with a simple Yes or No.

And when I find that, I move on.

Have a nice day!

[alittlelark]

57. Perhaps you should 'get out of your comfort zone'

....and see the world as it really is. That would be a good start.

[cleveramerican]

72. Seems like too much work....

sarcasm

[fishwax]

59. sure. i've noticed plenty of white guys doing so

[LeftyMom]

63. Today's entry in "how can I make this about old white dudes" came early.

It's NOT ABOUT YOU. Nobody wants to make it about you. I realize you live in a society centered around your demographic and your insecurities but for once in your life listen to somebody else's experience and don't try to talk over them.

There, I solved your problem.

[cleveramerican]

67. so you think

i should not give a shit because it does not affect me personally?
WOW! thats even more of an exclusionary solution than I feared
I think I'll pass on your "solution"

[LeftyMom]

69. No, I said you need to do a lot of listening before you talk.

You did beautifully illustrate my point though.

[cleveramerican]

73. as you did mine

[cwydro]

64. I would like to know why BLM seems not to care about the violence in Chicago.

A small child was killed there not too long ago, as a result of his father's gang activities. Numerous other innocents have been killed, shot, and wounded, but no one cares about them apparently.

That's only one city; there are others, including mine, where black on black violence is endemic.

We can't discuss that here however.

[LeftyMom]

70. I have BINGO! Somebody check my card!

[cwydro]

97. Too funny.

[rock]

66. As long as BLM

doesn't stand for "Black Like Me", I think you can.

[Matrosov]

74. The problem is when white guys say racist shit..

..and then excuse it as constructive criticism.

[cleveramerican]

82. I have been very careful not to

say or excuse anything racist

[LeftyMom]

75. Black people are getting killed in the streets for the crime of being black in public.

Why don't you start a thread about that instead of starting a thread about how the people who care about that hurt your feelings?

[cwydro]

99. Why don't you start a thread about why POC are being killed by POC?

Go look at crime statistics.

I'm sick of this nonsense.

[LeftyMom]

111. You're so cute!

I bet you think that's a good argument, don't you? *tousles hair*

[cwydro]

116. No answer.

Says it all.

[jack_krass]

103. So are white people. I'll bet you didn't know that almost twice as many whites as blacks are

Shot by police. Why are whites killed by police not plastered all over CNN. Honest question.

[LeftyMom]

110. And there are 7.5x more white people in the US population than black people

Since "twice as many" is nowhere near seven and a half times as many you made my fucking point.

Please learn fifth grade math and stop being a racist.

[TCJ70]

114. The data set isn't the entire country...

...it's people shot by police. Not everyone, white or black, has encounters with the police so it doesn't make sense to use the entire population for a comparison.

[LeftyMom]

115. So you're saying racist police violence is imaginary because black people are overpoliced generally.

Got it.

[TCJ70]

117. Of course not...but you knew that.

Racists can be anywhere in any profession. The situation with the police is worse because they have power and carry guns.

[jack_krass]

122. Actually there are around 6x as many whites overall. BUT other factors must be accounted for.

For example, more whites live in rural areas or areas where police encounters are rare. When that's all factored in, there is not *that* big of a per-capita difference. In a large, mixed race city near me, police shooting are nealt evenly split when demographics are factored in.

I will give you that the rate is higher against blacks, but not nearly as much as people think. I talk to people who think that police never, or exceedingly rarely kill whites, and hunt blacks for fun. They think this because they watch CNN where rarely, if ever is police violence against whites shown.

Why? Are the media trying to incite racial unrest? For ratings? I don't know, but I sure hope not.

Mind you Im not saying that police violence is not a problem, or minimizing themail terrible tragedies that happen too often! I just don't think its as much a racial problem as people, especially the media make it.

[LeftyMom]

123. You admit that the rate police kill black people at is higher than white people.

You're finessing the numbers to some acceptably close margin that does not exist.

How many racist killings have to happen before you decide it's a problem?

[Egnever]

129. I don't think there is enough evidence to really tell.

Police shootings are not tracked very well. That is a big problem.

Police are shooting far to many people period.

That said given the numbers we do have it is a very murky picture. That is not to say race does not play a role just that I don't think there is enough data to really determine if the rate is significantly higher or not.

According to https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-43

Whites account for 60% of all violent crime. African americans 37%

And according to the posts tracking of police shootings Whites accounted for about 50% of people shot and African Americans about 26%
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

Those numbers don't suggest widely disparate outcomes in the instances of police shootings when compared to violent criminal activity.

Meanwhile if you compare the numbers to the population as a whole..Whites make up 63% of the population and african americans 12.2 % when compared to the violent crime rate those numbers start to look skewed. There are plenty of obvious reasons for that disparity including institutional racism that creates an unfair playing field for African Americans when it comes to opportunity.

But it begs the question is the higher rate of African americans being shot when compared to population percentages simply a function of a higher rate of interaction with police in general because of the higher rate of crime in relation to the percentage of population?

I don't think that answer is clear.

I don't for a second doubt that racism plays a part in both shootings and arrests at times at the same time I don't think the idea that african americans are being shot disproportionately is clear either.

One thing is very clear. Cops are shooting way too many people period.

This is an interesting if a little slanted article that goes into this more deeply.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/02/08/black-and-unarmed-behind-the-numbers#.DVAzK0Ph6

[cleveramerican]

106. my feelings aren't hurt

i am a person who cares and thats why i am asking.
your answer seems to be no

[Blue_Tires]

76. Did I miss something?

[Iggo]

107. Nope. Same shit.

[JI7]

77. lol

[mahina]

81. How to be an ally and not make it about you:

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/08/ferguson_how_white_people_can_be_allies/

http://www.salon.com/2016/07/08/how_to_be_a_white_ally_fighting_racism_is_your_responsibility_start_now/


https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/06/this-is-what-white-people-can-do-to-support-blacklivesmatter/?utm_term=.cedca2472647

[mahina]

83. Thanks for raising the question. My feeling is we should all be protesting regularly until

This insane racist violence is just a bitter memory.

[Loki Liesmith]

86. What's stopping you?

Talk about whatever you want. If you get criticism, defend your views.

[etherealtruth]

89. Well of course a white guy or white woman can

I have been involved in a number of interesting and productive conversations and I have always been treated well. (I am a white woman)

No one is going to tolerate racism (thank God), though

[La Lioness Priyanka]

100. Aww.

[tonyt53]

101. After reading the posts, I think you have your answer.

[jalan48]

109. I think the discussion is about the unwarranted killing of POC by the police.

BLM has worked to make Americans aware of this horrific problem. I don't think the question is really about BLM itself at this point.

[malthaussen]

118. Porquoi pas?

So far as I am aware, there will not be a test later.

-- Mal

[NaturalHigh]

119. Well, just expect to get blasted if you say anything critical.

[tritsofme]

120. Discuss whatever you want. Who cares if the Sensitive Sallies hiss at you?

I certainly don't.

[romanic]

121. I'm sure a certain clique will hiss and lecture you

But as a person from the community, you can definitely discuss and have your opinions on it. I'm biracial and have criticized the movement itself but not the message.

That's the great thing about the forum, you can have an opinion.

[kcr]

134. And it seems he has. Doesn't seem like a whole lot of hissing happened to me.

Love how two posts in a row used the word hiss.

[bravenak]

124. LOL

[lib87]

125. lol

My european american friends do it. Listen and learn. Just be expected to be called out on racist views if you have them.

[ananda]

133. Is a white guy capable of listening?

Instead of wanting to take over the conversational space?

[VulgarPoet]

136. In my experience?

No.

[Odin2005]

137. We should be listening to what POC have to say.