Needed now and next decade: Electricians, roofers, plumbers

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

McClatchy Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON — Construction companies no longer fret over finding work. They increasingly worry about finding enough skilled workers.

“The industry’s workforce challenge is primarily a craft-worker shortage,” said Stephen Sandherr, the CEO of the Associated General Contractors of America, adding that skilled hourly workers represent “the bulk of construction workers.”

The worker shortage, highlighted in the group’s new survey of members, is all the more pronounced this Labor Day weekend because of indications that demand will grow for roofers, plumbers, electricians, carpenters and concrete masons — the very positions in shortest supply.

http://www.heraldnet.com/business/needed-now-and-next-decade-electricians-roofers-plumbers/

[procon]

1. That was the big draw of union journeyman programs.

Young people worked through a skilled training regimen until they earned their certification. They had to toe the line, obey the rules, don't get into trouble, and in return they got a good job. It made for a steady supply of workers, so the companies were happy to have the skills needed to keep their business thriving.

Then they got too greedy, killed off the unions, got cheaper labor with less skills, and they wonder why they can't get new workers? What to do... what to do???

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

2. Yep

[erpowers]

4. I Disagree

The insulting of tradesman/women is what brought about the lack of skilled workers. Too, many people told young people they would have failed if they became plumbers instead of going to college to get a degree.

Also, trade programs were largely taken out of high school and tracking programs were ended. Kids were not given a opportunity to learn a skill/trade and they were not informed of the trades they could go into and the pay they could get from those trades.

[Ms. Yertle]

11. Totally agree with you

All kids are told they should get a degree. Some don't belong in college, but they are being pushed into it, only to end up thousands of dollars in debt with zero job prospects.

Hardly anyone ever needs a sociologist, but it's pretty much guaranteed that we will all need a plumber or a mechanic eventually.

[MicaelS]

13. The contempt for blue collar workers...

Still exists, on the Left as well as the Right. Especially if said workers watch NASCAR, listen to country music, live in the South, own guns, and so on.

[whatthehey]

17. And it only goes one way

Nobody EVER was on the receiving end of contempt as a nerd geek egghead effete pointy headed college boy pussy carpet walking office boy intellectual girly man eh?

[MicaelS]

20. Of course they were, and so was I, so what?

However, given the fact that the Left is SUPPOSED to be the champion of the Working Class, it would behoove us to act toward the Working Class with compassion and empathy, instead of contempt and derision.

[AngryAmish]

21. Our party has ceded this demographic to Trump.

Dumb of us.

[MicaelS]

22. Yes they did, and it was dumb.

What does the someone likes NASCAR, or country music have to do with someone's political idea? But yet I read the hate often "NASCAR sucks, country music sucks, anyone who likes them is an idiot, etc, etc."

[Igel]

30. Cultural divide.

If you're low SES, you pick on the geeks and nerds. You don't see a reason for being like that and don't want to be like that.

If you're educated, you think that everybody has to be like you and has to go to college and get your degree in post-modern interdisciplinary approaches to Nweh art.

Career pathways to skilled blue-collar work are cut off. Community college and high schools lost the programs. Emphasis was on high tech jobs and college. That's the role model, even if it's not for everybody.

What's left are students who ridicule both the plumbers and the nerds.

If you go to a diverse school--depending where it is and who it serves--and check into vocational classes, you see a big race bias at work. They're electives, students sign up for them, so they're self-selected. And often self-segregated. Many minorities choose early release over vocational training, heading off to free time or minimum-wage jobs instead of learning to be a mechanic or welder.

[LanternWaste]

71. That'a a creative and imaginative allegation.

That'a a creative and imaginative allegation.

[Peregrine Took]

51. I'd much rather have a 5 year apprenticeship program trained electrician work on my house

than someone who just learned OTJ (on the job.)

[Callmecrazy]

52. Thank you, sir...nt

[Nay]

58. My son is a union electrician. He graduated in 2007, right as the bottom fell

out of the economy. No one was hiring. No one was building. This went on for years. He, and a lot of his fellow graduates all over the country, had to do other work. He now runs his own business (not as an electrician), but when an economy throws out thousands of graduates like that, they have to find other ways to make a living. Some of them can't go back to electrician -- they've now got too much invested in their present work.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. It's not rocket surgery.

I borrowed a half-dozen books from the library, bought a couple more, and had an electrician friend help me for an hour or so design the system then wired my house myself.

5 year? That's as arbitrarily unnecessary as most 6 year degrees.

[LanternWaste]

72. No doubt, you base you premise on objective, peer-reviewed information

No doubt, you base you premise on objective, peer-reviewed information rather than simple, simplistic and biased observations or anecdotal evidence, providing as much also not rocket science...

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. How many years of education did it take you to "know" that I couldn't do it myself?

When the anecdote is coming from my personal experience, it's dispositive of the issue.

[GOLGO 13]

3. You'll notice that the real complaint is not finding "cheap & skilled" labor

That's not how it works jackass. If you got the skills that others don't, then you set the market. It's like they refuse to acknowledge that skilled labor is worthy of decent pay. They wonder why young people are heavily looking to STEM careers.

I'm near retirement & I would love to pick up carpentry skills to do small jobs on the side.

[whatthehey]

18. Haven't priced a plumber lately?

[X_Digger]

23. Didn't read the article, did ya?

Almost half of the companies surveyed — 48 percent — reported that they had increased base pay for craft workers because of shortages. Some 47 percent said they were increasing overtime hours.
...
“The availability of people, they’re just not out there,” Brown said. “We have a lot of baby boomers” but “There just aren’t enough younger people coming in.”

Next door in Georgia, there’s a 5-to-1 ratio of older skilled workers leaving versus young ones joining the construction force, said Mike Dunham, CEO of the contractors’ group in Georgia.

My father just semi-retired from 40 or so years of custom home building- plumbing, masonry, framing, finishing, electrical, tape and mud, roofing, painting- he (and I for a long while) did it all (well, not landscaping, but that's about the only thing he never did).

You know what drove him away? He couldn't find competent help that a) showed up on time, b) showed up sober, c) could put their fucking cell phone away and work, and d) didn't have to be shown something ten times before they got it, only to forget it a week later.

He was paying close to $35k for more or less unskilled labor, and he STILL couldn't get reliable workers that weren't also about to retire. This was in rural Southwest Virginia, where $35k is damned good money.

All the skilled trades are being ran by old farts like him. Nobody's going to be a baller unclogging toilets or laying shingles. There's no app for that, nobody's going to follow your instagram feed if you post pictures of drywall going up.

[uponit7771]

38. BS argument same used in IT... They don't increase the wages enough starting out for people to jump

... into that market... It's usually by less that 20%

If they were paying 75 (avg ...not peak) an hour starting out and 110 for journey they'd have no shortage for instance... Theyd be beating problem back from these jobs.

The per hour doesn't have to go that high... Just high enough to attract and keep...

Unions would help greatly

[X_Digger]

39. Why yes, I'm sure $75/hr for unskilled labor would draw folks.

Do you think plumbers actually *make* $75/hr, just because that's what they *charge*??? I can tell you've never been close to any kind of business.

Now, have anything.. you know.. realistic.. to contribute?

My dad was willing to train unskilled labor (paying them 20-25% above market rate), get them their certifications- plumbing or electrical, and then pay them as a subcontractor, letting them manage their own rates. He still couldn't retain anyone under 40 years old.

[uponit7771]

41. That's the point...make it with folks while... The market isn't dictating prices

... and a for instance example isn't attempting to be realistic just raising the point that the per hour has to go up for the amount of people who are needed.

It happened in it during turn rhen leveled off ... Same can happen here

Also...there will be churn... There has to content recruiting...

I do share your father's frustration on labor... It s hard to find these days and less and less people want to work it.

[X_Digger]

42. There's a lack of skilled tradesman. Period. You can't double the rate and plumbers magically appear

It's not that there's some magical pool of plumbers just waiting for rates to go high enough to get them to actually be a plumber.



No, we have older tradesmen retiring from their lucrative salaries, and nobody coming along behind them to replace them. Even when you offer to train unskilled labor to become skilled, help them get their certifications-- you STILL can't get reliable people under 40 interested.

We've got a generation or a generation and a half of folks who disdain manual labor and the trades. They think they're going to be the next reality TV star / youtube vlogger / rapper / mobile app developer / hedge fund manager / instagram trend setter, and make tons of money, then sit back and relax.

They can't change a tire, much less their own oil; they don't know how to properly hang a picture on the wall; they can't fix a sticking cabinet door, even with an instructables and/or pinterest DIY graphic. Last year I had to teach a 25 year old grown-assed man how to mow his own goddamned lawn.

It's not about pay, it's about attitude. No amount of pay will make laying brick sexy.

[uponit7771]

43. Why isn't the car industry screaming then...or maybe they are .... Just seems there's a gap

[X_Digger]

44. They are! (At least here in Texas, and in Tennessee. I can't speak to Detroit.)

A friend of mine is in IT for GM corporate, and is frequently in Texas & Tennessee. I'll often meet up with him for lunch when he's in town.

The plant here in Arlington has contracts with all the local staffing agencies; they're sending a constant stream of folks to the plant. A large number of them fail the drug screening, some quit because they don't want to stand all day, but the majority of turnover is from young people saying it's a boring job.

It's unskilled labor (OTJ training for the first month in many cases), but it's good pay in a semi-climate controlled workplace. If you watch the folks heading to their cars in the evening, it's mostly guys over 30.

[uponit7771]

47. Whoa.... What interests folk these days.... I would think a car job would be some theyd give an efor

[Exilednight]

50. That, and those plants pay crap for starting wages.

They're starting pay is typically between $12 and $14 per hour. It takes several years to get to even $20 mark, but no one wants to wait that long.

[Lurker Deluxe]

57. Right

The only way to learn is to pay someone to teach you.

Spending four years and 100k at a university is the smart thing to do. Making 25K a year for four years to learn a skill is obviously stupid.

This place amazes me, and you wonder why anyone in the trades hesitates to vote D.

[Exilednight]

61. That $100000 on college is worth, on average, about

$2,000,000 over the course of a lifetime.

[Igel]

31. Back in the '90s California reduced classroom size for teachers.

People foolishly assumed that if they needed to increase the size of the teaching staff by 20% in one year they could.

They found that qualified teachers weren't available. The foolish politicians watched as their law was implemented, and most of those new teachers weren't qualified, even taking into account new graduates and immigrants from other states.

This trend spread across the US, and in 2001 resulted in the requirement that to receive a good rating schools' teachers be "highly qualified."

Same with a lot of skilled blue-collar workers. Nobody's trained them. They haven't trained themselves. They haven't sought training. So when you go to hire them, they're either not there or you lower your standards.

Employers have gone to the market and found the shelves bare.

[yeoman6987]

5. Instead of going to college and getting 100,000 dollars in debt

A lot should go to trade schools. Much smarter option. Sometimes I wish I had done that.

[Igel]

32. This is known and quantified.

We graduate too many 4-year degrees. Many of them take jobs that 2-year certificate holders could do as well. In other words, many workers are overqualified, whatever their official job requirements are. They're the 4-year-degree holders that suffer from fairly flat wages and a problem with unemployment when recessions end.

We graduate far too few 2-year-certificate holders. Even when you see a nifty new community college program it's most often not for plumbing or welding but for something sexy and high-tech, animation or CAD or automated assembly lines.

Too many Americans stop with high school. Those 2-year-certificate skills and jobs are needed, but with just a high-school degree you don't qualify. Those with just high-school degrees have a huge unemployment rate, their net wages are the ones that have declined over time. That "wages haven't increased in 20 years" is an average of an increase for some and a decrease for others.

Then there are all the drop outs, as high as 50% in some urban areas. They self-screw on a regular basis, because they have a very high unemployment rate and lowest wage increase over time. For many, it's not just a lack of education and skills but also behavior.

People have put numbers to the excess 4-year-degrees, the short-fall in 2-year degrees, and the maximum number of just-high-school grads that the economy's been able to accept for various years.

Politicians cannot tell parents that their kids, given their track record, should go to trade school, for a lot of reasons. And few have the guts to tell high-school drop-outs that mostly they screwed themselves--some have failed homes or other problems, but most just give teachers hell and make their schools failing until they drop out because, well, they just hate school--either learning, not seeing how it'll help them, or being "grown up" or "independent" by refusing to comply with orders. For some, resistance to everything is how they get their self-respect; they, of course, are fools.

[Person 2713]

6. Let's make sure unions are involved this decade and next

[dhol82]

7. Had to have my washing machine fixed a little while ago

Got to talking with the repair guy and saying that I thought it was a good business to be in. He said he had tried to get his son interested but that the son didn't want to work that hard.
Go figure.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

8. Immigrants are very happy to work as roofers and learn skilled trades, given half a chance. . . nt

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

9. This country is making a huge mistake

in pretending that everyone should go to college and get a four year degree. We need people in skilled trades, and should put some of that teaching back in the high schools.

[Ms. Yertle]

12. Yup. n/t

[mitch96]

10. Learning a trade in a $$$$$ diploma mill

I went to a trade school back in the early '70's.. The trade school was a hospital and the trade was Radiologic technology.. 2 years, 24 months and when I got out I was fully qualified to do almost anything pertaining to taking radiographs.. The cost was a pittance... $425 for the two years!!!
Kids now go to fancy "tech" schools and pay $30,000 to $40,000 and come out not knowing shit.. Just enough to pass the Registry test.. They teach the test not the trade.. it's less expensive. You need both.
The diploma mills will grind them out and collect bongo bucks along the way... sad..

So what I'm trying to say is I hope the diploma mills don't get the bulk of the kids learning the trade and don't rape them with costly loans and don't give them a good education...
ok, rant mode off...
m

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

25. A while back I worked in a hospital. On the information desk.

And periodically the hospital would advertize to the employees already there, to sign up for training in various areas. The one I remember best was to be a surgical tech. You'd be paid during the months of training, and guaranteed a job after.

This is a prime example of a job you don't need a liberal arts degree for, but do need some sort of other training. Had I been thirty or more years younger I'd have gone for it.

[MADem]

14. I think colleges ought to offer a liberal arts/trade and business track.

My plumber is politically astute and extremely well-read. He also charges close to a hundred bucks an hour and does very good work!

People CAN be more than one thing....

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Actually that was (and in many cases still is) the role of Community Colleges.

That is to say, developing curricula to meet the skills demand of the communities they serve.

By way of example only, a community college in New London CT, which is the home town of Electric Boat, a company that build summaries, would be teaching different skills than might a community college in Petaluma, CA, which is located on the edge of wine country.

They teach focused trade skills, some of which can transfer to a 4 year college and some of which lead directly to a high level blue college job.

Part of the problem is parents who think their kid can someday earn a Nobel prize in astrophysics when all the kids wants to or can do is be the best tile layer there ever was.

[MADem]

16. It ought to be given prominence. And not "either-or" -- there should be an opportunity

for people to get a liberal arts degree AND certification in a trade if that is what they want. Hell, having a specialty in plumbing is every bit as critical as having a specialty in, say, philosophy....and more useful on a daily basis as well.

If people just want 'certificates,' fine--but there should be an opportunity to do both.

[Igel]

33. Community colleges have been repurposed over the years.

And you see the problem in what Obama's said.

It's been suggested we have free CC for two years so kids can transfer to a 4-year school and get their bachelor's. For that, the 2-year college teaches the basic courses, not the specialized courses. Chemistry I but not quantum approaches to ligand bonding. Physics I but not a separate course on particle physics or solid state physics.

Such courses are cheap to mount, for the most part and attract a lot of students. Vocational courses are expensive and attract few. It's hard for a school to do both.

But Obama's also suggested that community colleges go vocational. Depends on the audience. But even then, he's partly wrong because he only sees how big government and big business go together. Schools should partner with a local corporation to figure out how to offer trades training for what that corporation needs. Working with robots, high-tech welding, clean-room technologists, etc.

What corporation is going to set up a good program for plumbers? Small engine repair? Most of the politicking has been opportunistic, to be honest.

The schools that do provide such training are the private, for-profit ones like Michael Brown was going to attend. Some are shady. They offer many or only crap classes where a lot of students take classes and learn nothing--a lot of this kind of thing requires self-motivation and self-monitoring and it's easy to hand out good grades for crap work (esp. when students assume that the teacher did a good job if they got an A or students demand good grades for doing little). But some of them require students to be in-residence, provide hands-on, useful training. They're like public schools in that sense--some are failing and some excellent.

[MADem]

35. Get a couple of teachers, and a couple of businesses in a local area to take on interns

and sign them off--do a work-study initiative. You don't even need a corporation--you need that wonderful combination of a person who knows how to teach and has the subject matter knowledge.

If they can do it for graphic arts at a private university (and one of my tribe is doing just that, in a five-year program with "work breaks&quot they can do it for plumbing, I should think. I believe they should try--once they get it set up in a few places, they can exchange ideas and come up with a formulaic curriculum.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

19. Received an Associates Degree in Electronics at a community college 39 years ago.

Back then tuition was $83 a quarter. One could work a minimum wage job and pay their way through school. You didn't live fancy but you could live.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

26. Many community colleges offer both.

Which is the amazing and wonderful aspect of our community colleges. You can do the academic track and transfer to a four year school. Or go the trade route, and in two years or so get a degree/certification that opens the doors to a good job. Think paralegal studies. CAD (Computer Aided Design). Various medical related areas. It goes on and on.

[MADem]

28. I'd like to see more well rounded tradesmen--basically, they get a liberal arts degree, and "major"

in plumbing, or carpentry, or electrical work, and do their "internships" in these specialities.

It's always, it seems, a choice between books and wrench bending. I am wondering why this is? Why not fold one into the other--for those who want it?

If you can "major" in computer "IT" stuff, why can't you "major" in plumbing, and still get the full monty of Eastern/Western Civilization, English literature, and all the oddball classes that produce a "well rounded" person who knows how to think?

It's a different paradigm...but why not? Why not do it all? It might not be the ticket for everyone, but it might be just the thing for someone who isn't sure what they want to be when they grow up, and they want trade skills as well as "book learning" under their belt.

I have a plumber who is a philosopher and very politically astute. He's self-taught because he didn't get all that in school, but I think he would have loved it.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

29. Not everyone who will make a good plumber or electrician gives

a flying fuck about literature, history, or philosophy. And they shouldn't need to.

Don't get me wrong. I'm the person who has always loved learning for its own sake. I took calculus when I was 47 because I was just loving math. I have a son who's a physicist and who I call frequently to ask questions about things in his field. And even though I think everyone should love learning the way I do, I understand that a lot of people out here simply aren't that way. And I don't want to cut them out of education just because they don't love that stuff.

When I first started college, back in the mid 1960s, schools typically had distribution requirements that included humanities, math, science, and foreign language. They were operating on a model from the 19th century, that had students already versed in the humanities, who were happy to learn foreign languages, who agreed that a foundation in math and science was essential. But things changed. And they mainly changed because the kind of person going to college was vastly different. And college itself changed. A lot. It was no longer the place that "gentlemen" received a specific and limited kind of education appropriate to their class. It had become something that many others participated in, including women (oh horrors!). There could no longer be the presumption that those attending college had a common background. Nope. Now people from all across this amazing and diverse country, who only had a very rudimentary basic common education, were now attending college. And this change was not a bad thing at all.

Here's the thing. A lot of people who will make excellent plumbers or electricians just don't give a flying fuck about literature, history, philosophy, or other parts of higher education. And why should they? Let them learn plumbing and electrical stuff. If they really are interested in other things, they can read or attend classes later on. Meanwhile, they can earn a living.

Your example of a plumber who is a philosopher is an anomaly. Which isn't to suggest there's anything wrong with him, but is to point out that he's far from the typical run of plumbers.

[Igel]

34. Agreed.

But if you get a 4-year-degree you should have some sort of common background and familiarity with more than just your specific field.

When you get your plumber's credentials you've already gone through a low-level of that. It should continue at higher levels, because that's the layer of society that's going to expect to have a louder voice in setting policy because they'll know better. Policy is always a compromise, and those citizens need to know enough to be able to talk to other stakeholders in reaching a compromise.

If you only know chemistry, then it's harder to understand the concerns of somebody who only knows sociology, but they have to agree since things like EPA and FDA rules will be imposed on both, as will other regulations put out by those trained in social sciences. Nobody's just going to say, "I'll blindly agree to whatever you say if you blindly accept that you know absolutely nothing about what I do and follow my dictates."

This is all the more important when you get kids from different backgrounds. Otherwise you get what I hear constantly now--"We'll govern ourselves, leave us alone, I'm different from you, we have nothing in common, you can't understand me." And in any society, prominence isn't going to be given to having the majority learn to deal with a dozen small subcultures but having the subcultures cope with the majority.

[MADem]

36. I think, though, that there are a lot of people who WANT to do both.

They just feel like they're forced to choose.

My electrician is very well read, also.

I think more people would take a "trade track" if it were folded into a liberal arts track and the upshot at the end of the process was an actual college DEGREE.

People who don't want to go down that road wouldn't be forced, they could get a trade "certificate," but for those who want a college DEGREE it would somewhat like a "two-fer."

Rather like the programs offered at some unis where, by the time you've finished your four year degree, you've already finished (and gotten credit for) your first year of law school--the actual "major" is "pre - law" and the credit is applied if you continue on to the law school that the school is affiliated with.

[nolabels]

62. You have your own personal electrician? (LOL)

You can only go to school to learn tradesman's occupation, to be good at it takes years of experience, just like being a lawyer or a doctor etc.

Having a degree only proves you can suck up to enough professors. I have met enough lousy doctors to know that once in while you might have better luck consulting a veterinarian. Titles mean nothing if the rest of the profession does not police their dregs.

[MADem]

63. I do--I've had him for a quarter century or more.

And his dad before that. His grandfather did work for my parents.

When you live in an old house that was built a hundred years ago, you NEED your own electrician.

Having a degree means you have demonstrated the ability, on at least some level, to THINK. It also gives you options that you might not have otherwise.

No one is forcing YOU, personally, to get a degree, but I do think having a "dual track" learning experience is a good idea, and not just for trades, but for things like policing--if more cops had a liberal arts background, they might be a bit more open to new ideas and experiences and less close - minded.

[nolabels]

66. In the early days of the automobile a mechanic rode along with the driver because of many breakdowns

Today such a thing would ridiculous. I lived in the same house for thirty years currently and previously for twenty-six and not once was an electrician ever called to fix anything. Most that was ever done by me was change out weak circuit breaker. I would suggest getting an electrician that could fix it correctly the first time so they didn't need to keep coming back.

As for needing a degree to work in the hand trades, it could help you all around in different areas but on the job apprentices are the rule of the day to get started. As a truck mechanic for the last forty years, i have had all kinds of training at all kinds of different levels. Nowadays you have to be computer literate to even work on trucks with any proficiency, but if don't know basics or you will be lost also. Mostly you could learn many basic things and or advanced things in college in or about a trade but get and keep decent or good job you have to be good so you earn your way.

Companies will not be able keep you around if you cost more to keep than you produce.

[MADem]

68. I live in an historic neighborhood where the houses are "wired together."

It's a real pain in the ass and difficult to impossible to fully "upgrade" one's system. And if you saw the existing system, you wouldn't touch it with a forty foot pole (and I would not let you near mine) --the electrician has drawn detailed instructions on a board in the basement mounted next to the boxes, and this is with the full understanding of the local authorities who have been in every basement in the neighborhood and also know that it's Rube Goldberg-ish but the fix would cost hundreds of thousands, if not a million or more, for this whole neighborhood--some of which would have to be coughed up by those very authorities, not just the homeowners. It looks like something Frankenstein would have in his lab. My electrician makes sure this hodgepodge system is SAFE and that is why I value him. As we move more and more to LED technology the system is less and less stressed, and that's a good thing.

Permits are not readily issued to change anything--for example, if you swap out a window it takes a ten month process and permission from a committee, a visit from a nosy parker during the process, and, of course, payment of a fee.

We have one section of our electrical system that is integrated to the house to the left and the right, and another section of the system that comes straight in from the street. So, for those of us who live in this very proscribed historic area, we're all grateful for our knowledgeable, old school electricians who understand what the issues are. I don't allow just anyone to fiddle with the place; the one business we've had for years is fine, and they're called if we need a fan installed or a new porch light. Also, the house is built like a fortress; it was a designated bomb shelter during the duck and cover days. You're not just drilling through a crappy wood wall to get in or out of this place, or even pull wire to certain sections of the house --you've got to get through a foot or more of stone and brick.

I think they thought there was some utility to it, perhaps because the neighborhood used to run on a "private" electrical system, or maybe they thought it was easier or cheaper, who knows, when the neighborhood was built, but not so much nowadays. We're all just hanging on until the technology develops that will allow us to have our own independent systems off of any grid (including our own neighborhood one) but that is probably a decade or more away (but we can't have solar panels on our roofs, because, ya know, "looks&quot . We also don't have grand lawns so doing anything on the property is out unless it's very small and not visible from the street. It's very much a one-off situation, but the district has its charms so we put up with the constrictions upon us.

I don't know how many ways I can say this, but I'll try again for a third (at least) time--it's not about NEEDING a degree--it's about WANTING one. Take "needing" out of your equation, here. Some people like the idea of having more than one track or one choice. Some people like a practical application AND a "knowledge for knowledge's sake" approach to learning that appeals to people hiring specifically for that broad, liberal arts, know-a-little-about-a-lot, kind of understanding.

Most kids I know these days like to do different things, they don't stick with the same gig for "a full career" and they might like to bounce in and out of areas of specialty. They like the idea of changing it up, taking a risk. They also like having a "bread and butter" backup. This sort of dual track approach would be appealing to that type of person--as an OPTION, not as the "only way."

[nolabels]

69. Sorry then about challenging your story, I thought you were trying to B.S.

How maddening it would seem to me, i could never put up with it. Some group of people telling me how and what i do to MY house.

I have two acres fenced, with lots trees i planted and take care of. The area is dry and hot so they help. In the last ten years mostly i have just about replaced everything fastened to the house. Fifteen years ago found i guy that only built garages. So had him build me a nice three car and don't know what i ever did without it. Seven years ago decided to go solar, so i called a reputable dealer and two weeks later they were installed remotely, on the sunny side of the lot. Yea, i do whatever i feel i need to around here and there is nobody else around to tell me anything about it mostly. I don't know how someone could put up with that situation you have there.

There also something about being a jack of trades and only the master of one. I study and try to understand everything i see especially when has something to do with me or other things that seem important. Alas though, there are so many hours in day a mine are about done now. Hope you have better luck with the house

[MADem]

70. We've been here for generations, so we're fine with it.

It's rather well built so I only have to rarely deal with "the authorities" when I need to make an improvement, but, like I said, when I do, it's a process!

It's a great big pile of rock so it's cool in summer and when it finally heats up in winter it can be cozy enough if you don't try living like a lord in the whole thing unnecessarily. It's also convenient to civilization, airports, other family, etc., and so full of "treasures" (i.e. family crap) from time gone by that to move would be way too much of a chore!

The best part of it, though, is that it's big enough so that if any family chickens need to come home to roost, there's a place for them--and that happens every now and again. We can (and often do) have several generations under the roof and they don't kill each other--and even though the yard/garden is quite small, it's pretty cheap to have someone come and mow it (or if I get ambitious, I could almost do it with a weed whacker-LOL).

[demosincebirth]

24. In the Bay Area, I can't count the number of "now hiring" signs I've see every day...not fast food,

either.

[doc03]

27. I worked in the steel industry for nearly 40 years. Back in the 50s 60s and 70s

the industry had apprenticeship programs for the skilled trades. Industry started pushing for public schools to have vocational training
then public schools steered their best students to go to college and steered their problem students into the vocational courses. I remember my company giving 100 physicals in order to find 10 people without drug problems. In this area they are begging for welders, truck drivers and heavy equipment operators.

[GulfCoast66]

37. I manage skilled laborers in a unionized firm

They work outside and make around $25 a hour which is not enough but very good for Florida.

When looking for new workers I have been told by young folks doing inside work like retail that they would rather make $12 an hour working in the AC.

It seems a combination of laziness with a big dose of feeling superior to my guys because they dress in street clothes and work indoors.

[X_Digger]

40. Do you shower at the beginning of the work day, or the end?

That seems to be the way folks look at it here.

[GulfCoast66]

45. When I was an hourly

Both, but one was right when I got home as I was filthy. Florida is hot! I still shower both but the late one is near bed time. I am just weird in that I just cannot wake up with out a shower.

I think demeaning labor was a strategy take by the right wing to make killing unions easier.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. That's it.

I'd rather have grease under my nails and money in my pocket, but america is a caste system.

[Johnny2X2X]

46. Unions

Here in West Michigan the builders effectively busted the unions. They changed the rules about how many actual journeyman were required to be at a building site. So you have 1 journeyman and a dozen apprenticed making $12 an hour at a construction site. You have less and less construction workers making good wages everywhere.

[FrodosPet]

48. Those are hard, dirty jobs! Smart people don't want hard, dirty, dangerous jobs!

No one should have to do hard, dirty, dangerous jobs!

If we had a sufficient national basic income, people would not be covered in mud and/or poo. No one would be risking electrocution. No one would be baking in the hot sun, trying not to fall off a building.

When we ALL are allowed to sit at home, get baked, Snapchat each other, and play "Call Of Duty" from sunrise to sunset like the rich kids do: then and only then can we say we are a humane and loving nation.

[Purveyor]

53. ^^^this^^^ Well said, indeed... eom

[alarimer]

49. Too often these jobs don't come with benefits or vacation time, etc.

Especially if you end up working for yourself. I don't think that kind of career is attractive to many because of the uncertainty.

[Lurker Deluxe]

55. Just out of curiosity

Exactly what profession comes with benefits and vacation time when self employed?

Where do I sign up, and how much vacation time do I get ... and who pays for the benefits?

Or do you think that every small business owner who is in the trades is just barely scraping by?

Or that any journeyman tradesman has a job that does not have these things?

Then again, all of us blue collar folk are just to stupid to realize how badly we are getting fucked, I mean I have been with the same company for twelve years as a machinist and all I get is 11 paid holidays, 25 vacation days, 7% match on my 401K, and the company pays 85% of my insurance costs. But hell .... I only make just barely under 125k a year.

I am so f'n stupid. Maybe I should run out and drop 100K on an education so I can get a job at Target ...

This forum is so fucking biased against blue collar people it is amazing, a person should spend four years in school paying to get knowledge instead of four years making 25K a year to learn a skill. Cause you know ... stupid and all.

[alarimer]

73. I'm merely pointing out the difficulty of such professions.

It's not bias to point out the drawbacks. Self-employment is for people who enjoy taking risks. I do not. Nor do I enjoy back-breaking labor. Some do, some don't.

And I agree that too many people are biased against blue collar folks. You seem to be against college in general. I doubt you'd agree that no one should ever go to college. Where would we get scientists or doctors then? For me, college was probably the best time of my life. It was more than accumulating knowledge, although that was important. It was about meeting people and being exposed to those who are different from me and to new experiences, something that going to work immediately at 18 would not have allowed (depending on the actual job, of course).

[Skeeter Barnes]

54. If they can't keep people, it's probably a shitty place to work. Word travels

fast about some of the places around here where they mistreat people. Then they pretend it's the worker's fault they can't hire or keep the ones they have hired. Some of the places I've walked out of were dangerous and or tried to cheat workers on their pay. I worked as a temp for a GM supplier until they shut down. Goddamn non stop rush work through a temp agency for $11.00 an hour and they still cheated us on our hours and pressured us to start working early off the clock. Fuck these places like that. They're not owed a supply of warm bodies to scam and abuse.

[Todays_Illusion]

56. We haven't trained any for 40 years and all the Union Aprentice programs were starved to death

along with the unions.

So guess what?
Instead of training our citizens beginning now, our tax dodging corporations are going to beg for foreign workers.

[LongtimeAZDem]

59. "We are preparing the next generation of students for a world where drains never get stopped up,

where we don't have to use a machine, where we only have to program it. We need a software manager but not an auto mechanic."

- Cliff Stoll, 1999

[Xolodno]

60. Absolute BS

Construction industry is cut throat as ever. Sure there may be a "shortage" of licensed and bonded contractors.....but you can find an unlicensed "handy man" in the penny saver or craigs list with ease. And the industry is largely un-policed. Add insult to injury, many of these "handy man" will use their previous bosses license number to appear legit. There is no enforcement, hence they can get away with just about anything....and most who hire them, will not know the better.

But then, maybe that's why there is a "shortage". Too many exiting the market realizing there is no enforcement of the laws. Its hell to bid on a potential project when someone else who is unlicensed, not bonded, not insured, etc. undercuts you and the project owner chooses them...and the project owner knows this, but also knows, the chances of getting caught is pretty much next to nothing.

[Sissyk]

67. That's not all that's needed.

Construction workers are seriously needed. Check this initiative out of Tennessee.

http://www.gobuildtennessee.com