LBJ was so very wrong.

[GulfCoast66]

He predicted that signing the Civil Rights act would cost the Democratic Party the South for a generation. He could not predict the cynicism and duplicity of the Republicans of the time since he saw Goldwater as a fluke. He never thought that the party of Lincoln would stoop to using the 'Southern Strategy' they ended up using. Playing to the racism in the South. Especially since Republicans had been key to passing the law in the first place.

But they did. And perhaps this is the best gift Trump is giving us. He has no guiding principle and no beliefs. And it is apparent that he is the candidate of the most reactionary, bigoted and small thinking of our electorate.

The south is finally getting to see what bigotry, boiled down to it's most concentrated essence looks like. It seem that there is at least a stirring of folks rejecting it when Virginia is a solid Democratic state and NC is considered a likely win. Even Georgia is being talked about in good terms. And my current state, Florida, is going to go blue for the 3rd straight time.

My family has been southern for over 400 years. I pray that before I die the region returns to the Democratic party, but the one of LBJ not Jackson.

[SCantiGOP]

1. SC is under a 3 point spread

Don't think we can win it, but it's getting closer. The shame is we have a very weak field in the Statehouse due to gerrymandering giving the GOP about 20% more representation than they should have.

I've said the same as you many times; LBJ said a generation, but we're into the 3rd generation and Repub racist politics still control the Deep South.

Also, one side of my family has been in the South for 3 centuries (the other side getting here during the Irish potato famine) and I really want to see our Party govern here again.

[GulfCoast66]

2. I turn 50 in just over a month

Last edited Mon Aug 8, 2016, 11:35 PM - Edit history (1)

I pray I see the day that we finally drive a stake into the remnants of the institutional racism that existed here for century's.

There are racist in all of America, but only here was society and law based on it.

[63splitwindow]

3. If white, did you, as you grew up, consider the "n" word absolutely normal and appropriate...

in conversations among other whites? If not, I am not sure how well your experience accurately represents the South's beliefs.

[SCantiGOP]

4. I'm too shamed to answer that question

Does that answer it, 63splitwindow?
I was in Junior High in the mid-60s, which was pre-integration in SC. So yes, that word was a common term in white communities. But, I did notice that it was never used in school, church, in front of adults, in general public settings, etc. So, everyone knew it was not right.
My politics didn't really change until I left my small town and went off to college and met people who had not been raised like me and with whom I had never associated before.

[63splitwindow]

5. Don't be ashamed. You grew up in a culture you didn't create.

[GulfCoast66]

9. Normal, yes. Heard it all the time.

Appropriate, No.

If used in my house it would bring the wrath of God from my dad.

And he was a scion of a family who settled in Virginia in 1664 with all that that included.

He left small town south because he could not stand the hate. He told me about it young. What opened my eyes was not what was done to Blacks, because at a young age I could not relate to it. He told me what would happen to whites who objected to the practices of the time. They would not be lynched...but they would not find work. Their kids would be ostracized. Their wives objectified. Kicked out of churches. Socially destroyed.

Had there not been some level of white support for the civil rights movement in the south it would have failed. Dad always told me that the Federal government coming in gave whites as well as blacks the courage to state their convictions.

[63splitwindow]

13. " He left small town south because he could not stand the hate. "

Is it any different there now? I would really hope so but am not sure.

[GulfCoast66]

15. Different?

Not as bad. When dad was young many areas of the town were white only and that has changed. And I do not mean blacks could not live there...they dare not go there.

As a white guy I guess I cannot say. A lot of the politicians are minority and 60 years ago when dad was a kid blacks could not vote. Time were hard back then for everyone. But it is all relative. As my Mamaw used to say 'the good old days were not all that good'.

[brer cat]

23. I'm from GA, born in 1946

so I grew up during absolutely segregated times. It was not considered normal or appropriate in my circle, but I did hear it outside my family/friends. I also remember very offensive racist advertising, cartoons, etc.

In my experience the attitude was not of hatred but patronization. Blacks were generally considered child-like requiring whites to "look after them", and intellectually inferior, which was used to justify the segregation of the races. However we were expected to be respectful and kind.

We were almost all racists, but it is incorrect to assume that all southerners were riding with the KKK.

[63splitwindow]

27. I agree it was not usually hate. More just a sense of separation and superiority.

[OriginalGeek]

28. Native Floridian, lived in the south all my life

From Maryland to Texas and in between. I'm 52 now but my teachers (in christian school) and preachers used the N word regularly. Might still do but I wouldn't know as I left when I was 17 to get away from their bullshit.

[elleng]

6. 2 generations +

[Raster]

7. LBJ never foresaw someone as offensive and caustic....

...as tRump leading the GOP. tRump is a gift.

[former9thward]

8. FDR developed the southern strategy.

Southern racists were part of his political coalition. Which is why many of his jobs programs such as the CCC and the WPA had minimal black participation.

[book_worm]

10. A generation is about 25 years, so he was actually right

with the exception of Jimmy Carter in 1976 the South has had been very solid red from 1965-1990. As demographics change it's getting less so.

[GulfCoast66]

12. I must polity disagree

Sure, Bill was elected in 90 with southern support.

But that was the beginning of the destruction of the congressional democrats in the south. Republicans now dominate on a state and federal level. It will be at least 10 more years before you can call any major region of the south truly democratic.

Perhaps Virginia and NC for Federal elections although the repubs control the state. And Florida is the same. The South is solidly republican.

I think 3 generations is what it will take. 2023. Perhaps even 3.5 which would be 2033.

[Martin Eden]

11. Tonkin Gulf

The Tonkin Gulf Resolution was my first thought when I saw the title of this OP.

As a southerner from Texas LBJ was politically heroic for signing civil rights legislation, but getting us mired in Vietnam had a profoundly destructive impact on our country and on millions of people in Southeast Asia.

Yes, I know, off topic, but this is what come to mind with LBJ being so very wrong.

I think he would be appalled but not necessarily surprised by what's going on now. LBJ was as politically astute as they come, but he and others like McNamara were seriously lacking in knowledge and judgment about what we were getting into and could accomplish in Vietnam.

It destroyed LBJ's presidency, but he was the least of its victims.

[GulfCoast66]

14. Great post

I think he would be shocked a how the republicans went full on racist. A man of his age and time, born not long after reconstruction would have assumed in his heart that the party of Lincoln would never go the racist route. Because up till the 60's the republicans had been the party of civil rights. Think Eisenhower and Little Rock.

[Martin Eden]

17. LBJ wouldn't be shocked by the racism. It was even worse during his long career.

Maybe a little surprised at how the Republican Party so completely switched roles with the formerly Democratic "Solid South" to capture the white racist vote, but he knew those votes were for the taking and he predicted that signing civil rights legislation would cost his party the South.

Donald Trump is the latest iteration of the nativist "Know Nothings" and one more in a long line of demagogues, none of which were unknown to LBJ. He was a master politician and a good FDR Democrat, but ultimately a terrible president because of Vietnam. Civil Rights and the Great Society programs are redeeming qualities, but Vietnam ruined the bright future of a young generation inspired by JFK's call to do what they can for their country.

[GulfCoast66]

19. This back and forth has been very enlightening

I was born in 66 and from your posts I assume you were of age at that time. If not, then this post will be ridiculous and I will look silly!

But I now can see how being of different generations, and actually living during a period can shape our prospective. When I think of LBJ I think of civil rights and the great society with its promise that all can share in the bounty of America. And that is pretty much it. I see him as a great president.

Of course I was an infant when 50k of our fellow citizen were being killed in Vietnam and while I can think it bad in the abstract, many actually lived it.

I guess the good things he did at home outlive the war he pretty much created. Which is kind of sad. Because for those who died or were effected, including the millions in Vietnam, they will never see the legacy he leaves at home.

I know this post is kind of deep, but I am in a pensive mood.

[Martin Eden]

21. Vietnam was a big part of my political awakening

I was born in 57 so I missed the draft by a couple years, but I remember elections back to '64 and all the events of 1968. My older sister was for Eugene McCarthy, the Democratic peace candidate.

Yes, LBJ left some positive legacies, but I weep when I think would could have been if not for Vietnam.

Thank you for this pleasant exchange.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

20. On Moyers' PBS show, I heard phone recordings of LBJ...

... and he seemed to be mostly concerned about how Republicans would call him WEAK if he pulled out of Vietnam.

Never mind the troops. It was more important to worry about those Republican twits and their political attacks.

[Martin Eden]

22. First and foremost it was a political decision

The idea that our country is made stronger and more secure by wars of choice needs to be debunked once and for all. The 2003 invasion of Iraq by tough guy GW Bush may very well be seen by future historians as the tipping point in the decline of US power and influence.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

24. I looked for the LBJ phone recordings again...

... and they don't make me as upset now. He at least seemed genuinely concerned about the troops at times, and he seemed to also genuinely accept the idea of the Communist domino effect.

However, I'm still not pleased that he seemed to quickly KNOW it would be a long quagmire, yet worries about how Goldwater, Nixon and others would use an exit from Vietnam as a political weapon at least partially prodded him to carry on.

By the way, I was born in the latter half of the 60's. Although I've discussed the 50's and 60's with my older siblings many times (I'm the youngest), I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on that time period.

LBJ's conversation with Russell near the end of this video clip probably sums up his attitude the best:

[spanone]

16. K&R...

[longship]

18. This is a good thread.

I always learn from DU. I lived through this period as a teen -- I am a late 40's baby -- and I am always interested in hearing about those days.

R&

[Hugin]

25. Good sentiment, GulfCoast66. n/t

[Proud Public Servant]

26. But LBJ was also so right

See my sig file...