So the French and Americans greenlit this Turkish coup, right?

[alcibiades_mystery]

Prelude to ground troops.

Erdogan was a stumblingblock to that. In the works for probably months, but last nights events was the go button.

No?

[sabbat hunter]

1. I doubt they checked with us first

Turkey has a history of coups, whenever they think the government in power is trending too close to Islamism and away from secularism.
The military probably planned this for a while.
Edrogan has not been seen oddly enough, either to say that 'we are in control' or in custody by the military.

[ananda]

6. Erdogan is on vacation outside of Turkey.

..

[KamaAina]

30. What kind of leader vacations outside his own country?

Well, besides FDR, of course.

[tblue37]

37. He is now seeking asylum in Germany. nt

[still_one]

31. Exactly.

[malaise]

2. Just listening to the coverage I would say

probably

[C_U_L8R]

3. I was curious about Kerry's visit to Moscow

Seems to make sense now.

What's Trumpie doing? Figuring out how to play checkers?

[Gabi Hayes]

13. he'll say he KNEW this was going to happend, and, depenging on

what his "advisors" say, then take credit for it, or disavow the terrorist coup plotters

here's the meeting currently taking place amongst them all:

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/4nwjrz/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-terry-mcmillan---taking-risks-to-find-fulfillment-in--i-almost-forgot-about-you-

stick it out through the commercial. my windows 7 will not work with adblock, so I'm screwed

[FLPanhandle]

4. Not another "The US is behind everything in the world" post.

You know, people in other countries don't really care or look to the US to "green light" their actions.

The US centrist ego of some people around here.

[nolabear]

7. God knows. We're actually a little busy at the moment.

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. Busy trying to deal with the actors across the border being coddled by deposed Turkish leader?

Yes, I agree, very busy with that!

[Igel]

50. We run the world.

We micromanage everything.

And yet we can't get databases right, checks mailed on time, or even complete audits without true absurdities.


It's the new anti-Semitism, not that the old anti-Semitism has faded. Your enemies are inferior to you yet far superior. No, it doesn't make any sense, but it does make the claim utterly unfalsifiable.

[alcibiades_mystery]

59. You're way too smart for me

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Hortensis]

38. I think the good people of evil America are

supposed to be busy with their own revolution.

[randome]

8. Yeah. That. And as evidence-free as it is calorie-free!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. Yes, obviously this is speculation

But a direct land route to Raqqa through a NATO partner with only Erdogan's dim games blocking it? We're not talking about a coup in Namibia here.

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. To be fair, I mentioned the French, too!

Don't be so mean.

[FLPanhandle]

33. It was still a very western ego-centric post

I know folks in the US think the world revolves around them and their government. If not the US, it must be European driven.

The people of the world act on their own to assume otherwise is the height of ego.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. Can one agree that everyone acts according to their own interests

and sometimes interests align?

Or is that going to be another reason to insult me?

[Hortensis]

43. I'll agree with that. Also, anyone can just google Turkey and

coup to see that this is hardly a surprise. We'll never know if Obama had evidence/reason to believe this was imminent and if he and a room full of experts discussed the pros and cons of intervening in some way and made some decisions. Or not.

That's as far as I go. Factions in other geographic areas, acting in their own interests, economic, religious, whatever, never really need our help to cause trouble for each other. Turkey's had a number of military coups in the past several decades alone. My guess most families are at home chatting about the various coups they remember the way we do elections.

The one assumption we can probably pretty safely make is that our own PTB want a stable and cooperative NATO partner in Turkey.

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. Listen, my point here is simple

I agree that Turkey has a history of coups. This isn't a surprise, and nobody here is a Turkey specialist, They've been saying it on MSNBC all afternoon. What's interesting to me is the timing. France is going to step up its ISIL strategy. Any move to bring ground troops into this will require Erdogan gone. There's no doubt that Turkish generals act on their own accord.

I am not saying, as people in this thread weirdly claim, that the US is "behind everything" (a truly silly notion, as is the idea that US foreign policy isn't a Byzantine game of realpolitik chess, tra la, Pollyanna). But if the US and France wanted (speculatively, my God, OK, fine! It's a message board, not a scholarly article...) to move to a next step scenario in which ground troops were introduced into the region, the only way that works is if Erdogan is out.

So you wink and nod at a coup. And, suddenly, options open up.

[Hortensis]

49. Okay. Sure. Sorry I assumed you were one of those

who see the world through a conspiracist miasma of evil American plotting. There are a bunch around.

Speculating is good brain exercise. I could definitely imagine the sort of scenario you describe where we and possiby other NATO nations were aware of this impending coup some time ago and decided not to intervene.

Who knows, conceivably even supplied information, although actually helping an allied NATO government be overthrown is probably way too problematic to even consider. Especially as it looks like the military is split into opposing factions. Especially if Erdogan could win, as his faction is currently claiming...

[okieinpain]

17. thank you. my son is a conspiracy nut and man the

conversations we have are crazy.

[Blue_Tires]

39. Par for the course around here...

Just like Morsi, when Erdogan was in power DU saw him as "America's installed stooge", and now he's "America's expendable patsy"...

[rjsquirrel]

5. Doubt it

Putin would have had to back it too.

The odds seem slim that this was expected. Or we might have known about it but it's not Obama's style to have his hands on such a lever.

I could be wrong of course.

[Gabi Hayes]

15. you mean like Libya? that worked out so well

maniac that he was, an indisputable fact is that they had the highest percapita income in Africa....

how that syncs with the median, I don't know, but there was a post here which presented a whole lot more positives than negatives in keeping Kadafi in power. lots of arguments there, but if the assertions were even close to being accurate, considering the chaotic mayhem taking place there, nailing him was about as good an idea as invading Iraq

[Gabi Hayes]

16. take your pick of the pro and con discussions:

https://www.google.com/search?q=gaddafi+good+for+libya+bad+coup&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com&gfe_rd=ssl&ei=D1uJV4G0OITM8AeO2qP4Bg

[rjsquirrel]

22. We didn't directly engineer a coup there

We inherited a bunch of bad options and had little direct influence anyway.

I smell Putin on this one.

[joshcryer]

9. Turkey has gotten too Islamist.

Had to do a reset.

[geek tragedy]

12. Turkey is a member of NATO, greenlighting a coup by a NATO military

would be all kinds of illegal.

I'm gonna say no, this was domestic politics, with Turkey's military likely (1) upset about the Islamism; (2) appalled by the coddling of ISIS; (3) not eager for a war with Assad.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

14. I agree

plus, a military coup puts the U.S. in all sorts of difficult positions vis a vis being able to use Incirlik AB for air strikes against ISIL.

[dumbcat]

20. Illegal under what law?

Do you have a cite to a law?

[geek tragedy]

21. Section 508 of the Foreign Assistance Act is a good start. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. Sure it would be illegal

It is interesting how the military's aims might align with French and US policy aims for the region right now, though.

[Igel]

55. When I walk down the hall my coffee sloshes out of the cup.

The velocity of water waves and the cup's diameter line up so that the period of my stride is very close to an even multiple of the period of the wave in my cup.

The result is that my stride reinforces the coffee wave's amplitude and it sloshes.

It's interesting how those two periods line up. Then again, sometimes things just line up.

I'd also point out it's not entirely clear that larger US and NATO interests line up with the coup. On one particular topic, for one purpose, they do line up. However, that purpose isn't actually announced as a purpose, is it? So we have a coup and a possible purpose, and the reason to suspect the purpose is that there was a coup.

Perhaps the real purpose was to allow for a Turkish-Kurd rapprochement? Or prevent the rapprochement that's started with Russia. Or a reaction to the the new Turkish Israel policy.

Or maybe the timing is because Erdogan was out of the country and some generals thought he needed to go.

The coffee sloshing is at least demonstrable; there are carpet stains and stains on numerous pairs of black pants (invisible, fortunately). And it's a coincidence I can squash by simply walking a bit slower or faster.

[Red Mountain]

51. Officially, yes, illegal

But if you're asking for permission you should know better.

At least through official channels.

[closeupready]

18. It would have been known to highly placed officials that it was going to occur.

That doesn't mean we 'greenlit' it as such, though if there had been opposition, it might not have happened.

[pinboy3niner]

19. Not likely

Uphheaval and instability in Turkey is definitely not in the U.S. interest.

[alcibiades_mystery]

27. Maybe moving from a non-interest stability to an interest stability, though.

[still_one]

35. No it isn't. Turkey is known for such coups and it has nothing to do with the US, but

that destroy the talking Ng point, to blame everything on the Way S whether accurate or not

[Yo_Mama]

23. If there's one universal truth of the last century, it's that Turkish generals do their own thing

They are a proud and independent group. Sometimes Turkish generals take orders from their government when they feel it is in their nation's best interest to do so.

Sometimes Turkish generals give their government orders when they feel it is in their nation's best interest to do so.

Turkish generals do not EVER take orders or even polite suggestions from non-Turks.

If God showed up, they wouldn't shoot him, but they wouldn't take orders from him. They can't - in their own minds they are still bound to follow Ataturk's orders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk

Really, your suggestion is the one thing that DIDN'T happen.

There was an incident some years ago. A Saudi princeling showed up for a state visit, and at the end his retinue tried to give their Turkish military escorts wads of money. To a man, they all refused. They were truly offended and outraged.

[flamingdem]

24. Let's see how fast the US recognizes the new government

My guess is pretty fast

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. Let's see how fast France declares a state of war against the caliphate and Turkey fulfills

treaty obligations by inviting NATO troops to gather on the border.

[ericson00]

25. Erdogan has been shielding ISIS and slowly ending freedoms in Turkey

so he had to go!

[still_one]

36. The US was not involved in this. Coups are not unusual in Turkey

This thread is speculative flame bait without proof

[ericson00]

40. that's true as well; Turkey's been having anti-Islamist coups for a while

n/t

[still_one]

48. The army has always leaned toward a secular position

A

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. How is it flame bait? I'll certainly cop to speculative

Jesus, what's with the hostility?

[still_one]

53. Because you are making an assumed accusation without anything to substantiate it. No hostility

intended, just expressing a personal view

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. Good lord, it's a message board!

"assumed accusation without anything to substantiate it"

I'm playing out a speculative scenario and asking people to chime in. Relax.

[still_one]

60. I believe the president

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2016-07-15/obama-all-parties-in-turkey-should-support-erdogan-govt

[alcibiades_mystery]

61. Good on ya

[still_one]

62. ok

[uhnope]

64. there is a "creative speculation" forum for stuff like this

use it next time and maybe get less negative reaction

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. Whatevs

[David__77]

26. I doubt the US would support or strongly oppose it.

...

[Bernardo de La Paz]

42. I wish there was no fucking speculation without fucking facts. It should dry up.

Crappy speculation about chemtrails and Obama's birth was based on more facts than are in evidence here. Similarly black helicopters, blue helmets ready to take over Texas, Obama declaring marshall law for a third term, Newtown massacre being a false flag operation and on and on and on.

There are whole office buildings devoted to creating and promoting arrant nonsense.

[font color = "purple"]Conspiracy theories (conceivable or stupid, both) are much beloved by the proverbial "Powers That Be" that the conspiracists constantly blame for the purported conspiracies.[/font] Why? Because they divert otherwise intelligent people down rabbit holes and up blind alleys. Meanwhile pay no attention to the man behind the curtain while those people are distracted and doing their best to distract the rest of us.

Sorry for the strong language. I don't usually indulge.

[Blue_Tires]

44. In case you haven't been keeping up with current events

https://twitter.com/AP/status/754090919624839170

You'd think that if this was a Washington plot, Obama would be throwing his full support behind the coup and asking Erdogan to surrender himself for the sake of peace...

At least lose the Mets avatar if you're going to spout something this ignorant...

[alcibiades_mystery]

46. Don't be nasty

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. OK, confess - was this thread meant seriously, or taking the piss out of conspiracy theorists?

I had been assuming it was a piss take.

[bighart]

47. 7 dimensional chess

That's the ticket!

[Igel]

56. No, 11 dimensions.

With 8 of them curled up at or near the Planck length.

Then again, you node that.

[bluedigger]

54. It's going much too smoothly for us to be involved.

They've got this on their own.

We should probably take notes from the experts.

[alcibiades_mystery]

58. ROFl

Agreed. Maybe more the French!

[TeddyR]

63. This post is a joke, right?

World Net Daily would push this type of nonsense. The US isn't behind every bad act in the world.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

66. I'm calling Poe's law on this post. N.T.