So if you were plotting a jihadist terrorist attack,

[B2G]

Would YOU openly advertise your radical beliefs, faithfully attend mosque, associate with other radicals and risk being profiled and watched so you can't follow through on your plans?

Some of you all really need to get acquainted with the concept of covert operations. And this whole 'lone wolf' minimization thing needs to stop. Alone, in pairs or groups, they are killing us.

[Democat]

1. He allegedly beat his wife

Which no one in any extreme conservative religion would ever do.

[auntpurl]

10. Is this sarcasm?

Honestly asking.

[Democat]

11. Yes, sorry

There are sometimes articles on DU about right wing religious types defending beating their kids as part of their religion.

[auntpurl]

12. Oh, good.

I am relieved.

[uhnope]

2. could you explain a little bit more what you mean?

your post might be misunderstood otherwise. Thanks

[B2G]

4. What don't you understand? nt

[uhnope]

6. I don't understand the covert part

if you're saying that he was an Islamic terrorist who was hiding his true beliefs, or if you're saying that there was something even more covert going on

[B2G]

7. Covert

"not openly acknowledged or displayed"

[giftedgirl77]

3. Attending mosque regularly doesn't make one a jihadist.

What the family is trying to say is that his actions did not make him a Muslim of any sort definitely not a fundamentalist in the form of ISIS.

Maybe if you listened or read some of the teachings of Islam instead of assuming every brown person is a jihadist you would have a better grip on reality.

[B2G]

5. I never said it did.

But certain posters are trying to say this couldn't be radical Islamic terror because he wasn't outwardly religious.

Which means nothing.

[uhnope]

8. I think what is concerning some people is that

while of course there is terrorism going on, there are also crazy people who are using the closest excuse at hand to commit massacres and commit suicide at the same time.

For example, most of the school shootings in the USA have not been terrorism. And even if one of those shooters suddenly said it was for the cause of Jihadism, it wouldn't really make it terrorism, if it was just something the shooter said. It's a gray area and the truth is we don't really know what's going on, very often. People are doing this in the USA all the time for no clear ideological reason. And if they do proclaim that reason, it doesn't always seem to be the real reason--it's often something they seem to have just found to justify their abhorrent. As opposed, for example, to the attack on the offices of Charlie Hebdo, which was clearly a terrorist attack.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say and don't think I'm trying to dismiss any of this.

[The_Counsel]

29. BINGO!

I think what is concerning some people is that while of course there is terrorism going on, there are also crazy people who are using the closest excuse at hand to commit massacres and commit suicide at the same time.

+ - - - - - +

Bingo!

I think that's exactly what happened in Orlando. Dude just started spewing jihadist shit to cover up the fact that he was really a jilted self-hating homosexual. He knew entirely too much about how that club was run and not nearly enough about jihadist terrorist groups in general....

[uhnope]

32. there's also a strong "monkey see monkey do" aspect to human behavior

Seeing things on the news starts to make them seem more possible for unbalanced people to act out themselves.

Don't forget the phrase "going postal" from back when there was a rash of shooting by postal workers at their workplaces. That particular monkey-see/do mania has died down, but others have taken their place (and it has accelerated).

[giftedgirl77]

14. Yes, it does. If you understood Islam & the fundamentalists

that leech onto Islam as their holy cause you would know that if he was a hard line ISIS follower his actions would result in death. On the other hand the fact that he didn't follow any of the teachings or tenants of faith that he was on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. He was not a Muslim by any definition period, full stop. There is no maybe in there.

[Arazi]

9. Drinking, smoking and beating one's wife similarly doesn't mean he isn't a Muslim

If he's taken the shahada, he's a Muslim.

This is "no true Scotsman" stuff

[giftedgirl77]

13. No, radicalized jihadists follow the absolute strictest code of Islam.

that is the whole reason they attack so many Muslims that they haven't deemed pure. ISIS is not Islam but for the bigots of the world any chance to pounce on something they don't understand is like a little gift & any chance to lump any evil act as Islam is an added bonus.

[Arazi]

18. There's any range of practitioners of a religion - from casual to pious

And there's several versions of Islam from Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Twelvers, Alawite etc. Each of them believe their version is the only correct way.

In reality, a Muslim is anyone whose taken the shahada. Period. If they haven't renounced that act, they are Muslim, deemed to have "reverted" back to their natural state.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/204/how-to-convert-to-islam-and-become-muslim/

One's behavior may modify whether one is a "good" Muslim or not, but the deen stipulates that once in, you're in.

Your comments are the "no true Scotsman" theory essentially

(And psst, Islam allows wife beating)

[giftedgirl77]

24. You are just flat out wrong.

A Muslim is identified by their character & actions. If one is not acting accordingly they are not a Muslim regardless of what actions they have taken to become a Muslim.

The bible condones beating children, doesn't make it socially acceptable.

Nor does Islam state only one way of thinking is acceptable. The different tribes do not war with each other over their different practices, that's external conflict. Islam preaches peace and acceptance for all. Ppl that are exploiting that are not Muslim.

[snooper2]

26. Should we start quoting holy books here again or do you only read the happy parts?

[giftedgirl77]

30. No, that's not what I was saying.

there previous post stated that it's ok to beat wives, I was using a comparative argument.

[Arazi]

28. Nope. Only Allah can judge if one is a true Muslim or not

You as a human can judge whether a person is a "good" Muslim but you don't get to decide whether they are out of the ummah.

And if you don't believe each sect thinks they're practicing the true version than you're looking at it with blinders on.

Further, that you think those fighting the Sunni/Shia wars (for example) aren't Muslim is just a sad idealization of religion in general without an understanding of the reality 9f how they live their faith in many parts of the world.

[giftedgirl77]

31. Lol....

I didn't say anything about them not being Muslim.

[Arazi]

34. Uhm, ok. What did you mean here then?

giftedgirl77
24. You are just flat out wrong.
A Muslim is identified by their character & actions. If one is not acting accordingly they are not a Muslim regardless of what actions they have taken to become a Muslim.

That sounds like you're saying they aren't Muslim

[ehrnst]

19. That would be like an orthodox Jew who ate pork

It doesn't fit the zealousness of a religious extremist to ignore the precepts of piousness.

[GeorgeGist]

25. Like the 9-11 crew?

[Dorian Gray]

15. But ISIS

aren't fundamentalists, really. They aren't Wahabist background Islamic scholars. Many of them were Ba'ath party loyalists, and they are militiamen bent on conquering territory. Loose ties with Al Queda, but I don't think there is a centralized religious fundamentalism that runs throughout. They are violent, war-driven, power hungry people hell bend on raising their own caliphate.

[giftedgirl77]

17. Exactly, I explained that deeper in another response on this thread.

They are using Islam as their vehicle to wreak destruction & havoc without actually following the teachings.

[mwrguy]

33. See the Atlantic article 'what isis wants'

[Dorian Gray]

35. I read it

It was a great article.

[Kingofalldems]

16. So what are we supposed to do if it was covert?

[clarice]

21. I think he meant "pull your head out of the sand". nt

[clarice]

22. I didn't mean YOU in particular KD, I meant people in general.nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

20. Evidently a Muslim need only consume a slice of bacon

to have his/her religion deemed irrelevant, yet the lunatic who shot up Planned Parenthood in Colorado was clearly a Christofascist. Because he just was, you see.

[clarice]

23. *sarcasm*? nt

[The_Casual_Observer]

27. Then again he may have been a run of the mill sadistic murderer

He wouldn't be the first one.