If a foreign force came in and killed your entire family, would it radicalize you?

[trumad]

I continually ask--- how much of this is our fault?

Yeah I know--- there will always be Caliphate type assholes out there. But how many were driven to the Caliphate by our reckless foreign policies?

We kill, they kill. They kill, we kill. And around and around we go!

[Albertoo]

1. The father of radical Islam became radicalized by seeing American couples dance

Does it answer your question about what is the real cause of religious insanity?

Time in the United States, pursuing further studies in educational administration, cemented some of Qutb's views. Over two years, he worked and studied at Wilson Teachers' College in Washington, D.C. ..

On his return to Egypt, Qutb published "The America that I Have Seen." He was critical of things he had observed in the United States: its materialism, individual freedoms, economic system, racism, brutal boxing matches, "poor" haircuts, superficiality in conversations and friendships, restrictions on divorce, enthusiasm for sports, lack of artistic feeling, "animal-like" mixing of the sexes (which "went on even in churches&quot , and strong support for the new Israeli state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb#Two_Years_in_America

[trumad]

4. Not even close...

Not even close by a 1000 miles.

[Albertoo]

7. Please elaborate, I'm getting pop corn ready

[Squinch]

51. No, actually that's true.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. A middle ground

There has to be a middle ground "between they hate us for our freedoms" and "their grievances are so profound that their actions can be justified."

[Albertoo]

19. Yes and no

Yes, in the sense that stupid wars like Iraq create havoc

No, in the sense that the Quran is irredeemably medieval and supremacist.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I liked the Clinton/Blair approach to Iraq

We had him in a box with the sanctions and no fly zone. Iraq was strong enough to deter Iran but not strong enough to threaten its neighbors.

As for the Quran couldn't you say the same things about other religious documents.

[Albertoo]

26. Yes to most of what you say

Yes on Clinton's (and, let's be fair, GHWB's) approach to Iraq.

Yes about your comment on other religious books (Torah, Old Testament), but not all are as violent as that: Buddhist teachings or the New Testament, while being half baked and not very useful, are far less violent and supremacist than Quran.

[Chasstev365]

2. If my family were killed, it would not give me permission to:

Rape and enslave women
Torture innocent people who don't follow my teachings
Brutally behead hostage

I get your point, but these people really are a menace to the world.

[trumad]

5. Yeah I know what you mean.

[Albertoo]

8. Yeah right, as if it was on par with what ISIS does

Some stupid grunts play brutal pranks on prisoners,
wnat to compare that to what ISIS does to Yazidis or Shias?

You do not like the US much, do you?

[trumad]

13. Your lack of knowledge off what we did in Iraq is stunning?

The Mahmudiyah rape and killings involved the gang-rape and killing of 14-year-old Iraqi girl Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi and the murder of her family by United States Army soldiers on March 12, 2006. It occurred in the family's house to the southwest of Yusufiyah, a village to the west of the town of Al-Mahmudiyah, Iraq. The deceased of al-Janabi's family included her 34-year-old mother Fakhriyah Taha Muhasen, 45-year-old father Qassim Hamza Raheem, and six-year-old sister Hadeel Qassim Hamza Al-Janabi.[1]

Charged with the crimes of rape and murder were five U.S. Army soldiers of the 502nd Infantry Regiment consisting of Paul E. Cortez, James P. Barker, Jesse V. Spielman, Brian L. Howard, and Steven D. Green, whom the U.S. Army discharged before becoming aware of the crime. Spielman and Green were convicted and the three others pleaded guilty.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings

[Albertoo]

25. It's your lack of perspective which is stunning.

Soldiers are humans, some will commit crimes.
It's got very little to do with knowing if wars are just or not.

Just fyi, thousands of 1944 GIs committed rapes all over Europe.
Is it proof the Normandy D-Day was an unjust cause?

[trumad]

30. Soldiers are humans, some will commit crimes.

So---torture by Americans---Rapes by Americans---that's OK--because they are er Humans.

Gotcha.

[FBaggins]

76. You really can't tell the difference?

Only one side sends out public videos of mass beheadings with announcements of how righteous the act is.

And only one side prosecutes the offenders for the obvious crimes.

[mwrguy]

80. Lots and lots of them will commit crimes

[KingCharlemagne]

96. Normandy D-Day was too little, too late, as the USSR had already fought and

defeated the Nazis along a 2,000-mike front while we were dinking around down in North Africa.

So spare us the cant about "just cause." FFS

[Albertoo]

109. May I radically disagree? Stalin held only thanks to US help.

If the Allies had not distracted Hitler in the Middle East, and directly helped in Russia with heavy industrial equipment, it's very likely Stalin inefficient machine would have broken down.

One can't purge the political and industrial elites in 1938 and expect miracles on the front in 1942.

[KingCharlemagne]

111. Well, if we are going to give credit where its truly due, plaudits should go to the

humble Greek partisans, who so bedeviled and bogged down Il Douche, that Hitler felt compelled to divert an entire Wehrmacht Division to suppress the Greek resistance, thereby delaying the launch of Operation Barbarossa by a crucial 6 weeks with disastrous wintry consequences for his goose steppers.

Were it not for the lowly Greeks, we might all be speaking German or Japanese today.

U.S. aid had NOTHING to do with the.Soviet victories at Stalingrad or Kursk.

[Albertoo]

114. Your views are partly correct, but biased

Are you an American, or a western European, or an Asian living in a democratic country?

Or none of the above? Just curious.

[malaise]

40. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

They don't want the truth

[trumad]

43. It's weird.

Our rape and torture is OK... Their rape and torture--- mot so much.

[malaise]

46. We kill them - they are collateral damage

They kill us - the victims are innocents. All the fucking victims were innocents on both sides.

But remember Jebus is on our side so our killing is just and right and we're speaking freedom and democracy.

[Albertoo]

115. Let me ask who even **tried** to foster democracy overseas more than the US?

Some Scandinavian countries, maybe.

But not very forcefully.

[Albertoo]

104. Please let me know what you think the truth is about the US armed forces?

I mentioned that US military personnel is -to this day- mostly composed of humans which are -as is often the case with humans- fallible.

Now, what is your remark supposed to mean? That it goes beyond? Please, do explain.

[KPN]

116. +1

[FrodosPet]

69. Spielman and Green were convicted and the three others pleaded guilty.

They were charged and convicted.

How many ISIS soldiers were tried and convicted of the kidnapping rape and murder of the Yazidi?

And yet they are morally superior to us?

[trumad]

71. Never said the were morally superior to us.

How many atrocities did we commit in Iraq that were never found about?

Jesus---talking about moral superiority.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

106. In the US Army, rape is a crime. In ISIS it's a policy.

[trumad]

112. Again...how many times did it happen without being caught?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

132. Now you're just reaching for absurd excuses. How many crimes have you failed to catch?

[4Q2u2]

39. How does that work?

This is after 9-11 Terrorist Attack.
So the ball was already rolling long before that. Most of the perpetrators of the start of the GWOT were Middle Class
Saudi's that we have never invaded and killed. Quite the opposite.

The USS Cole
Khobar Towers in SA.
US Embassy bombings.
First Trade Center Bombings
All these events happened before we invaded any country.

Al-Qaeda in Iraq the forefathers of ISIS were a spin off group that went to Iraq after the invasion and were led by a Jordanian and other Foreign Fighters.

Muqtadā al-Ṣadr has only fought our troops on his soil and has never exported any type of terrorism.

ISIS recruits are world wide. Jihadi John was a Brit. Last time I checked we have not bombed or invaded England, but we may get our chanced after the Brexit.

[KPN]

117. Maybe that was a response to

the 765 or so military bases we had all over the world when those attacks occurred, and all the "stabilization" we were providing in the Middle East. BLOWBACK -- ever hear of it?

[4Q2u2]

142. Of those 756 Bases?

Name one of the ME countries that we were not invited to before 2001?
Name one Country we invaded without UN approval before that idiot Bush lied us into Iraq?

The point of the OP was stating that our invasions have turned these Law abiding citizens into terrorist and then went on to display pictures of Abu Ghraib that clearly happened well after 9-11. I do also believe that none, or almost none of any of the recent attacks have been carried out by Iraqi's. They are still busy crafting that NeoCon paradise that was promised.

Blow back, more like butt hurt from their own lack of self esteem that the Great Satan has cause them.
Small men with small minds, but yes it is all our fault.

[KPN]

145. Define invited. Most of our bases around the world were negotiated sure, but invited?

I think you are discounting entirely American economic presence -- and the obligatory military and political presence that went along with it. Our long history in Iran for example.

[arcane1]

128. "All these events happened before we invaded any country."

The world didn't begin in 2001. There is a thing called "history".

[4Q2u2]

143. Is it not History?

Then I would guess that all these attacks are carried out by Vietnamese? No?
Then definitely Serbian and Bosnian? No?
Kuwaiti's? No?
Iraqi's? No?

Germans, Japanese, Koreans, Philippines'? No?
Well who is left that we invaded their country, killed their families and MADE them terrorist.
Chinese from the Boxer Rebellion. Anglo Canadians from the Revolutionary War.

I mean I am at a loss to the OP's point that because we invaded these poor peoples countries and slaughtered all of their families that they are now terrorist.

There is a thing called "context" it really helps.

[KPN]

146. You are right about "context" helping.

History does help. You just need to look at it all, not only the stuff in the last decade or so. The US problem in the Middle East is the same problem the British and French encountered before us -- "middle eastern nationalism" in the face of imperialism. We simply replaced GB and France as protectors and "owners" of Middle Eastern oil. Blowback.

[Blanks]

3. The Soviet citizens of WWII...

Demonstrated the kind of resolve a people can have when a foreign army comes in and kills family, friends, neighbors etc.

I'm sure it's the kind of thing that you never forget.

[Democat]

6. These people are extreme right wingers, it's not revenge or rational

They want to kill anyone who doesn't think like them.

Liberals need to stop trying to defend or make excuses for these right wingers.

They are extreme right wingers. Liberals don't usually support or defend extreme right wingers. For some reason, with this one group of people, many liberals are willing to give them a pass.

[Albertoo]

10. ^^^ this ^^^

"For some reason, with this one group of people, many liberals are willing to give them a pass."

[Dreamer Tatum]

37. Liberals also need to stop applying "right wing"

To anything wrong or destructive.

ISIS can be evil and sinister on its own.

[Democat]

42. ISIS is further right than Trump or Cruz will ever be

They are a right wing organization.

They want to enforce their religion and morals on everyone else.

What group is more extreme right than ISIS?

[Dreamer Tatum]

44. Know what else is right wing? Cauliflower.

Don't like it at all, so it's right wing.

Canned spinach, too.

Fire ants? Right wing.

Ditto tornados and stubbed toes.

Don't get me started on sharks.

[Democat]

48. When spinach tries to enforce their extreme conservative religious views by violence

Then I might agree.

Do you disagree that these are religious social conservatives?

[Dreamer Tatum]

57. If your mind can only think in terms of liberal and conservative

Then I suppose that's all you'll see.

I bet you pretty much every dollar in the world that many of the Muslims being slaughtered by these so-called conservatives would appear pretty conservative to you as well.

If you're implying that right wingers in the US are comparable to ISIS, the sound waves from my laughter might muss your hair.

[Squinch]

54. Extreme conservatism is right wing. ISIS is the extreme of the extreme. They are right wing. Your

post is silly.

[Marr]

82. +1

[KPN]

147. So lets just nuke 'em, eh?

[coco77]

9. You won't get the answer you are looking for because..

great white man is always right but.kill his family and everyone better jump on board. If you are black and fight for his rights then when it is over you can go sit your ass back down and watch him enjoy the fruits of your labor and watch every other race come to to this country to enjoy and look at you like you are a POS because you are black.

[trumad]

14. I'm seeing this in this thread.

[JI7]

11. unlikely. most terrorists have not had this happen to them.

[trumad]

16. Is there a stat for that?

[Democat]

18. Born in America or born in France

When was the last time America bombed America or France?

[trumad]

20. So what your saying is---our foriegn policy has radicalized people?

[deathrind]

27. Decades of supporting

Oppressive regimes in the ME has not helped us any. But that is not the only reason.

BTW- yes to your question, foreign or domestic.

[trumad]

29. I agree

[JI7]

21. They are killing other Muslims the most.

[joshcryer]

35. +1

[auntpurl]

12. They kill millions and millions of other Muslims.

These people are not rational.

[pipoman]

15. They wouldn't be targeted if they didn't kill with impunity.

[ronnie624]

52. The unspoken claim in your post

is that the US government -- the deadliest, most violent entity currently in existence -- has never killed with impunity.

[Democat]

65. The US government or certain people in the US government?

Do you use that logic when it comes to members of religions as well?

[ronnie624]

70. Mass murder has long been a staple element of US foreign policy.

We have murdered more people in 'secret bombings' than all of the terrorists combined for the last 100 years.

[pipoman]

75. Yeah, yeah, yeah....

Self loathing aside, the faith of Islam and it"s thousands of years of war against all non Muslims is the basis of the entirety of any retaliation.

[ronnie624]

78. Is that why Laos was bombed daily for seven years,

because of Islam and because I hate myself?

[pipoman]

118. OK....we have veered from the present to half a century ago....

[ronnie624]

124. The bombing of Laos demonstrates conclusively

that mass murder is a strategy of US foreign policy.

[pipoman]

131. War....all those words in 3 letters....back to the 21st century....

What would lead any reasonable mind to believe that anything other than the Islamic radicalism is responsible for any of the current military operations? You do realize that 9-11 (or any of the other attacks on the US and the free world) wasn't staged upon any claim of retaliation but instead in the name of Islam? We are attacked because we are not Muslim, and other Muslims are attacked for not being the right brand of Muslim.

[ronnie624]

136. Nonsense.

In Osama Bin Laden's November 2002 "Letter to America",[5][6] he explicitly stated that al-Qaeda's motives for their attacks include: Western support for attacking Muslims in Somalia, supporting Russian atrocities against Muslims in Chechnya, supporting the Indian oppression against Muslims in Kashmir, the Jewish aggression against Muslims in Lebanon, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia,[6][7][8] US support of Israel,[9][10] and sanctions against Iraq.[11]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_September_11_attacks

[KingCharlemagne]

103. "Violence is as American as cherry pie." ~H. Rap Brown

[pipoman]

74. The chicken or the egg doesn't apply here....we know which came first.

[Exilednight]

148. Yes, we certainly do.

Oil came first, followed by WWI and a division of several countries, one of which that displaced an entire culture.

We could go back further than that, but a few centuries of mild skirmishes is nothing compared to what happened in WWI.

[LexVegas]

22. The Japanese did that to a large part of my family in WW2.

I'm not looking to kill a bunch of Japanese people now.

[ismnotwasm]

24. My SIL tell a story

When and a group of American soldiers were watching a house known to be an Al Queda base somewhere in Afghanistan. It was more a recon from another house, and they didn't want to be noticed. Well they were noticed, but a kid--a small boy. My SIL said he and his fellow soldiers thought there was going to be a gun battle, and that a lot of people would die--because the children of such groups are trained early on to fear and hate and report if they see an enemy.

For some reason, the kid said nothing. Everybody lived.

Radical groups such as ISIS and Al Qeuda are insane, and do not represent the majority of Muslim people-whatever the original motivations--

Most of us knew this was going to happen with Bush's fucked up war--it didn't take a genius to predict.

I always think about that boy though.

[pipoman]

77. This doesn't explain the female experience or the gay experience or the Christian/Buddhist/Hindu

Experience in any Muslim culture.....no, the faith of Islam is a problem with no easy solution.

[ismnotwasm]

99. I am not saying it does

It's a terrible story--an indoctrinated child of terrorists who, for some reason went against his training. I have a daughter who was stationed in Afghnistan for a year, a son who was in Iraq for a year and a half, and a SIL who was in special forces--all of them have stories.

In the US, I know liberal Muslims--men and women who are immigrants. They defend their religion and deplore terrorism. Some women wear the Hijab, some don't. I know Islamic feminists. There are not only no easy solutions, the west has a skewed perception of Muslims in general so we occasionally misidentifying the problem. We over-generalize. We think some random cleric who issues a random fatwa is legit.

The Islamic state, however, is easier to pinpoint. A shining example of the absolute necessity of the separation of church and state.

[pipoman]

119. Complacency or collaboration

It is the same result....much like police culture in the US, the good remain silent on the abuses of the bad. The good (overwhelmingly) are not at war with the bad among them....that is the problem.

[Chemisse]

28. I had a high school student from Iraq

Who told me about how people came to his house in the middle of the night and murdered his father (who apparently had been working with the Americans).

His goal after graduation was to return to Iraq and seek revenge on those responsible. Of course I suggested he involve the police instead, but it was clear to us both that I had no comprehension of the reality of his life before coming to the US - and the police were not an option. So then I just listened.

This is a far cry from becoming a terrorist who kills random strangers, but still, it is important for us to try to understand the feelings and circumstances that bring people to that point, in order to devise ways to reduce the rate of radicalization.

This has been Obama's strategy, according to comments he has made in the past.

[KittyWampus]

31. It seems for some, being a liberal means always saying you're sorry

For everyone and everything.

Not holding individual and groups of people responsible for their misbehavior is ultimately enabling and encourages escalations in misbehavior.

As others have already pointed out, a good many of the killers are not from Iraq.

For quite a few it's become an accepted cultural form of expression. Suicidal terrorism.

[Democat]

38. DUers blame groups all of the time - police, Christians, rich people

Just not certain groups.

There are extreme right wing groups that are loved by some DUers far more than Obama, Clinton, or Sanders ever will be.

[Ex Lurker]

83. Fortunately, more and more DUers are starting to see through the diversion tactics

employed by the usual suspects. It's not working like it used to. They're getting called out on it like they wouldn't have only a few weeks ago.

[Martin Eden]

123. "Not holding individual and groups of people responsible for their misbehavior ...

... is ultimately enabling and encourages escalations in misbehavior."

I agree. Does that apply to everyone, including a US president launching a war based on lies and committing war crimes?

Cheney, Bush, et al have not been held accountable, which ultimately enables another disastrous war.

[malaise]

32. Precisely trumad

but it's deeper than that

[6chars]

33. the poor dears

[auntpurl]

34. The terrorist in Nice was from Tunisia.

When did we last bomb Tunisia? There is no rationality that can be applied to the jihadists terrorists.

[trumad]

41. This is a bigger picture question

[Dreamer Tatum]

50. You mean it's as big of a picture as you need it to be.

The terrorist was Tunisian and attacked Nice.

Baghdad was just car bombed to the core.

Muslims slaughter Muslims in Syria.

On and on and on.

[Tsiyu]

88. Christians slaughter Christians in the US

If we want to categorize people by their violence, I know first hand that Americans are truly a violent breed.

The human condition is such that we can give in to our good side or our evil side. There are no super-evil races of humans because we all fucking suck when we feel like it.

We armed the Taliban against the Russians. We armed Saddam Hussein. We refused to acknowledge Saudi Arabia's blood lust against us as they smiled in our faces.

Then we rushed in and bombed the motherfuck out of the very Taliban and Iraqis we formerly supported.

For fucking stability in the region? To spread democracy? To kill hundreds of thousands of men, women and children, destroy infrastructure, fail to protect the population or their assets........

Trying to act like ISIL is some mutant anomaly unlike anything seen before is naive and sophomoroic.

Study DeSoto, Columbus, Henry VIII, and any invader or tyrant of the past. ISIL is nothing new, and we helped form it with our pathetic, bloody, greedy rush to take over the Middle East once more.

AS I told an addict yesterday: "Actions have consequences."

To pretend we have no part in this is a huge, arrogant mistake

[ButterflyBlood]

94. Christian sectarian violence occurs in the US?

Really? When's the last time an extremist group of one Christian branch invaded a town that was mostly from another Christian branch, engaged in mass rapes and torture and slaughtered everyone there?

[Tsiyu]

98. No, not the same thing

we just have random rightwing Christians shooting up movie theaters and schools. In Tennessee we had a guy go into a church and kill. In South Carolina a racist Christian went into a black church and killed.

And then we've got the radical ones taking over federal property, killing law enforcement, etc.

We don't have the tribal warfare going on there, no, but we have all sorts of acts of violence, rapes, torture, human trafficking etc.

We have nothing to brag about. Check out some of our prisons to see human depravity in action on both sides of the bars.

[ButterflyBlood]

102. I don't think anyone's disputing those flaws exist

But I think it's a pretty far cry that the problems of the US are just as bad as what ISIS is carrying out in their parts of Iraq and Syria.

[Tsiyu]

137. I don't understand straw men

No one is saying that things here are as bad as they are where ISIL is running the show. No one is defending what they do.

What we are doing is having a discussion about what radicalizes people and where our own actions may have played a part.

I am not a "my country right or wrong" sort and I believe before we start pointing fingers we need to get a handle on our own violent natures.

If that is offensive I don't really give a fuck.

Self-awareness is difficult but no positive progress in life is made without it.

[malaise]

97. Excellent post

[Tsiyu]

100. Good to see ya this saturday

I really need to get to work, but gonna say thanks and

and you have a great weekend with trumad keeping this place in line.

[malaise]

101. Same to you

[Albertoo]

120. You applaud "I know first hand that Americans are truly a violent breed"?

Would you kindly try to demonstrate how Americans are more of a 'violent breed' than Jamaicans?

I'm beginning to wonder if there is anything you like about the US, apart from those of its citizens who flail themselves for being American?

[Marr]

134. Islam is an issue that sends a large portion of the left into a cognitive tailspin.

It's exasperating. There's plenty to criticize about the US and the west in general, but some people seem to start every analysis with 'US=bad', and just go from there.

[Albertoo]

140. It goes beyond

Some posters seem to always look for America's guilt first, before other options.

Another poster wrote my attitude was that of a GOP "America First" redneck.

I marvel at the false dichotomy between the US always/never wrong.

[KingCharlemagne]

107. You should fucking make this an OP. Really strong sauce. - nt

[Albertoo]

121. Certainly strong sauce if one doesn't like the US

May I venture you probably are not a US citizen?

[Tsiyu]

138. Is this some litmus test for you?

If someone criticizes our nation they must not like their country or be from some other place?

Really?

Wow...

So you believe "MURICA RIGHT OR WRONG!" and "IF YA DON'T LIKE IT GIT OUT!"


Good to know. Have filed this away for future reference.

[Albertoo]

139. There is a wide space between "Murica First" and "America always is wrong first"

Nice try at a false dichotomy

[ButterflyBlood]

95. Not to mention France wasn't involved in the Iraq War

Nt

[KingCharlemagne]

105. Do you mean when did France last bomb Tunisia???? - nt

[joshcryer]

36. We'll find the guy was radicalized by the media and propaganda.

Not because of anything that actually materially affected him.

Watch some ISIS videos, they're pretty slick.

[hack89]

45. Yet they choose to kill fellow Muslims instead of us.

why is that?

[Dr. Strange]

144. I keep seeing this question asked.

And I keep seeing this question ignored.

[Act_of_Reparation]

47. ISIS is the direct result of Shiite-Sunni sectarianism dating back more than a thousand years.

Saddam Hussein was going to die eventually. Maybe his sons could have kept the Shiites and the Kurds repressed, but for how long? The arbitrary borders drawn around these historically unfriendly neighbors were a pressure cooker. It was only a matter of time before something like this happened.

Did we enable it? Yes. Did we hasten its arrival? Absolutely. No argument there. But to say we "caused" it isn't wholly accurate.

[Democat]

49. The middle east was peaceful before America

According to some on DU.

[ronnie624]

56. By all means,

let us kill a few hundred thousand more women and children in the ME, since it doesn't really matter.

[KingCharlemagne]

110. I really wish you would use the sarcasm thingy, as otherwise

Poe's Law might apply.

Your post depressed the fuck out of me, and im pretty sure you didn't intend that.

[Act_of_Reparation]

58. And had no history prior to 1914.

And it's people, strangely, are unable to make decisions except in the context of American foreign policy.

[Zambero]

53. People are radicalized based on their perceptions

And the feedback loop perceptions of others in turn. This process doesn't necessarily require an actual event that would impact someone personally.

[underahedgerow]

55. That's a guy thing. Guys seek revenge. Women walk away, get productive and start

over. Much more logical in the 'survival of the species' realm.

Revenge solves nothing. Living well is the best revenge.

[mwrguy]

81. LOL

[Squinch]

59. I'm a New Yorker. I know a lot of families who lost people in the towers.

One family lost two sons. Many others who I know lost wives, husbands, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters. I lost a number of friends and acquaintances.

None of us has become radicalized.

[ChazII]

60. Good point.

I have only one friend who lost a family member that day. He is not a radical.

[trumad]

61. Comparing 10 guys to an invading Army is a bit different.

[Squinch]

62. Your question was about the loss of family members. The answer, at least in NY, is no.

And whether it is by ground troops or airplanes turned into missiles, an invasion is an invasion, and your loved ones are still dead.

[Democat]

63. There is an excuse or reason for anything these extremists do

If a Christian or American does anything, there is no reason, no excuse.

That's the logic of some on DU.

[Squinch]

68. I feel the "no reason, no excuse" applies to everyone. I see what the OP is getting

at, though. However I don't think that radicalization works that way. I think it is more a function of disaffected people not getting what they think they are owed, and someone encouraging them to see that as the fault of some specific group.

And... it's a guy thing.

[zenabby]

129. Honestly?

How many people signed up for the military to go and kill those people who did this to us? How many people were okay with collateral damage if that's what it took to get those who did this to us? How many people talked about bombing them into stone age as if they didn't matter at all, and "they" all took part in it? You did get radicalized - but you went about it in an organized military way.

That's what the people who are helpless and whose family gets killed are doing. They are angry, and they will do what it takes to get the people who did it to them. Unfortunately ISIS is totally capitalizing on that anger to do what they want to do - land grab and build a caliphate. ISIS does not care about these people, but provides them with an outlet.

[Squinch]

130. You don't know anything about me. Don't presume that you do.

[JI7]

135. There were people who attacked those they thought were Muslims (mainly Sikhs) including killing them

but these were people who were not only not from that part of the country but didn't lose anyone they knew in the attacks.

just like the thugs in ISIS . these aren't poor innocent types who had injustice committed against them and loved ones taken from them. and are acting out as a result.

they are just fucked up thugs who love to commit violence on others.

we are really to believe these ISIS scum are raping women because they had loved ones killed ? many of these are born or raised in the west and have gone to the middle east and now terrorizing the people there.

you don't see groups of women going out committing sexual assaults on men . the sikhs who had loved ones killed by bigots didn't go out attack white people because of the white bigots who took their loved ones lives.

i'm tired of excuses for these fucked up thugs.

we know many of those who have committed these terrorist acts and none of them have had horrible things done to them. in fact THEY have had a history of harming others.

[Squinch]

141. Exactly.

[grossproffit]

64. How many family members of the victims of 9/11 went on to become mass murderers?

[Democat]

66. If 9/11 family members even mentioned certain groups

They would be called racists or worse here at DU.

Other groups are justified in mass murder of French and American children because America is so evil.

[dembotoz]

67. revenge is a natural thing...if given a chance i sure as hell would

atrocities??? sure why not

so i am not civilized?

oh well then don't kill my family

[Abq_Sarah]

72. Would it make me

Go out and try to kill as many civilians as possible?

Uh-no.

[loyalsister]

73. Yes. Around and round

What happens to little boys whose positive male role models have all been killed? How would they not be vulnerable to an opportunity to seek vengeance, and to fall for an ideology that gives them a sense of superiority and someone to blame?

Understanding is not the same as justifying and sympathizing.

We either learned nothing from the direct relationship between Charlie Wilson's war and OBL and his opportunity and ability to build Al Quaeda, or our culture loves having people to hate and kill since the MIC is such a huge money maker.

War for profit is acceptable as long as it is "over there" somewhere and the people we are killing don't look like the idealized sterotypical version of "an American" and there are differences in culture andor religion. We are then arrogant enough to expect to be thanked for killing people's friends and families.

[Tsiyu]

93. Wonderful post

Discussing why a group may become radicalized is not the same thing as condoning it.

It's like in the 50s and 60s no one would say the word "cancer" out loud. As if saying the word would make it land on you.

We can discuss why people will choose to join violent groups as a way to reach those people, not to say "oh, well, it's fine that they do hideous shit then."

Dehumanizing people is very convenient. I do it all the time without even trying, to be honest. It's not my greatest superpower. But we can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different result.

[doc03]

79. Hell we in the US get radicalized if a foreign force comes in and picks

our vegetables.

[Crunchy Frog]

84. I'm sure I would understand that it was for the greater good.

[Scuba]

85. "Our" fault? Hey, I didn't get up in the Senate chambers and echo Bush's lies.

[Tsiyu]

86. ...

lyrics from the masterT:


You can't deny
The other side
Don't want to die
Any more than we do
What I'm trying to say,
Is don't they pray
To the same God that we do?
Tell me, how does God choose?
Whose prayers does he refuse?
Who turns the wheel?
And who throws the dice
On the day after tomorrow?

Mmmmmmm...
I'm not fighting
For justice
I am not fighting
For freedom
I am fighting
For my life
And another day
In the world here
I just do what I've been told
You're just the gravel on the road
And the one's that are lucky
One's come home
On the day after tomorrow

[oberliner]

87. Of course not

Under no circumstance would I kill random innocent people.

I would think that would be a given for everyone on a board like this.

[ripcord]

89. Has there ever been an incident where a terrorist act in the west

was committed by someone who lost a family member to the US or are we just throwing what ifs against the wall to see what sticks?

[rug]

90. Yes, but I would not lose my mind.

[ButterflyBlood]

91. It wouldn't make me kill my fellow countrymen who belonged to a different religious sect

Or engage in attack against a country that opposed that initial invasion.

[KingCharlemagne]

92. Something to consider about the political uses of language: when

the strong perpetrate terror on the weak, the strong justify it by calling it "war." When the weak wage war upon the strong, the strong condemn it by calling it "terrorism."

But my answer to your question is Fuck, yeah.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

108. By your rationalization, Germany should be drowning in Jewish terrorist organizations.

Yet, the Middle East has not endured anything even remotely equivalent to the Holocaust -- at least not imposed by Western governments. The worst carnage in the ME is being inflicted by those native to the region.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

113. So who bombed Tunisia? Bush or Obama?

This rant would be better after the next terrorist attack, perhaps.

[pault420]

122. How does this explain all the suicide bombings in Iraq?

I think Isis and suicide bombers have terrorized their OWN people more then they have the west, sorry this post makes no sense.

I would be infuriated, I would fight to take my own country back, but I wouldn't be going after innocent civilians that had nothing to do with a specific governments' actions.

[Rex]

125. Whowhatwhenwherehowwhatkindhowmanyandwhoisarmy?

It sure wouldn't make me a happy camper, it would ruin the rest of my life. Are we guaranteed I would be taking revenge on the exact people that did it?

We have to be sure.

[lapucelle]

126. It's such a shame that Gore lost in 2000.

Who knows what the world would be like now if had he won?

[bigwillq]

127. Not sure. Maybe. I can see how it does happen, though.

And, yes, a part of this is the USAs fault.

[Adrahil]

133. To deliberately target civilians? Nope.