Dumb question: is it illegal to grow gardens in N. Korea?

[NickB79]

I was just reading this: http://news.yahoo.com/un-food-supply-tenuous-16-million-nkoreans-040735079.html

Nearly a third of North Korean children under age 5 show signs of stunting, particularly in rural areas where food is scarce, and scores are dying from diarrhea due to a lack of access to clean water, sanitation and electricity, the agency said.

Why is food most scarce in rural areas? Is there a law that forbids N. Korean citizens from growing their own gardens or something? I know from experience that I can grow enough basics (corn, beans, squash and potatoes) in my backyard to make a massive dent in my food bills if I ever needed to. Is it that it's hard to find seed to plant? Is it cultural and they don't eat crops that are easily grown and stored by individuals?

[cynatnite]

1. I thought the country was facing a drought. n/t

[GoCubsGo]

4. It is, among other things.

[Taverner]

2. I am positive North Koreans are allowed to grow food to give to the Dear Leader

[GoCubsGo]

3. I don't know, but...

I do know that there are a lot of other factors that would prevent people from growing enough food, even if it is legal. For one, large stretches of the country are not suitable for growing crops. It's mountainous, the winters are harsh, and there isn't always enough water. Much of the flatter lands in the better climates are degraded by deforestation and poor farming practices. And, much of the country has been in a drought on and off for the past several years. A lot of those people likely can't afford seeds, either.

[TheWraith]

13. Plus, it's not like there's a lot of protections.

If somebody has a successful garden putting out a bunch of food, there's not a lot of defense against the local bigshot coming over and taking it.

[Rittermeister]

5. I'm so tired of hearing how liberalism = this.

In a progressive nation, this kind of crap wouldn't be allowed to happen.

[jeff47]

6. N. Korea is mountainous

There's very little land that's good for growing food. So there's little room for a garden that can supply any significant nutrition. Think of it like "middle of the Rockies Colorado".

Back when there was only one Korea, those that lived in the north relied on the food grown in the south. That's why there weren't a lot of people living in the north. There's also few natural resources in North Korea, so they don't have anything to trade for food.

When Korea was partitioned at the end of WWII, the north had to rely on the Soviet Union for food. Now, they rely on whatever they can extort from the major powers.

One of the primary reasons there still is a North Korea is nobody wants it, strategically. There's little natural resources, so in the end all you get is a hungry population that doesn't really make you anything and will have to be supported by the rest of your country. South Korea might want it for cultural reasons, and South Korea could conquer North Korea pretty easily. But then they'd own North Korea (and a pile of rubble formerly known as Seoul).

China could obviously take it over, but then they'd own North Korea. However, China is also not interested in any other power taking over North Korea, since they don't want said power on their border.

[HiPointDem]

7. 24% of NK reportedly agricultural. arable land = 22%.

The Agricultural land (% of land area) in North Korea was 24.13 in 2009, according to a World Bank report, published in 2010. The Agricultural land (% of land area) in North Korea was reported at 24.50 in 2008, according to the World Bank. Agricultural land refers to the share of land area that is arable, under permanent crops, and under permanent pastures. Arable land includes land defined by the FAO as land under temporary crops (double-cropped areas are counted once), temporary meadows for mowing or for pasture, land under market or kitchen gardens, and land temporarily fallow. Land abandoned as a result of shifting cultivation is excluded. Land under permanent crops is land cultivated with crops that occupy the land for long periods and need not be replanted after each harvest, such as cocoa, coffee, and rubber. This category includes land under flowering shrubs, fruit trees, nut trees, and vines, but excludes land under trees grown for wood or timber. Permanent pasture is land used for five or more years for forage, including natural and cultivated crops.This page includes a historical data chart, news and forecasts for Agricultural land (% of land area) in North Korea.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/north-korea/agricultural-land-percent-of-land-area-wb-data.html

percent arable land doesn't look much different in SK:

South Korea is a mountainous country with only 22 percent arable land and less rainfall than most other neighboring rice-growing countries.

http://countrystudies.us/south-korea/52.htm

[jeff47]

9. Trying to grow food doesn't mean good to grow food

Using the same source, South Korea is only 19% agricultural land.

But they can grow lots and lots and lots of rice on that land, while the North Koreans only get one crop of wheat or other hardier crop.

(For comparison, US is 44% agricultural land using that source)

[HiPointDem]

10. according to this, nk exports rice, or did.

The grain output in 1989 was estimated at 12.04 million tons by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the United Nations. In 1989 the output of the two most important crops, rice and corn, was estimated at 6.4 million tons and 3 million tons, respectively. The output of potatoes was 2.05 million tons in 1989. Other important crops are wheat, barley, millet, sorghum, oats, and rye. Corn grows in most areas, except for parts of Yanggang and North Hamgyng provinces. Barley and wheat are cultivated mostly in both Hwanghae provinces and in South P'yngan Province. Rice is exported, but other grains, such as wheat, are imported. P'yongyang's goal is to increase the grain output to 15 million tons by 1993.

Major rice production centers are located in the provinces of North and South Hwanghae and in the provinces of North and South P'yngan. North Korea's climate precludes double-cropping of rice in most areas, and different methods had to be devised to increase productivity. One method is to use cold-bed seeding, a process that enables farmers to begin rice growing before the regular season by planting seedlings in protected, dry beds.

http://countrystudies.us/north-korea/49.htm


just saying, this story about how nk's food shortages are caused by lack of arable land, "bad, mountainous" land, etc. don't ring true.

the same stories are told about haiti, were told about china during the cold war, are told about various countries in africa. i have learned to be skeptical.

[jeff47]

12. From what I've read they've always had to import food.

Looks like they could trade a little rice for other food up until the rice output dropped 20 years ago.

[HiPointDem]

15. well let's have a link to what you've read, then.

[jeff47]

16. Various sources over various decades

It's kinda hard to find a link to a vaguely-remembered magazine article from 20 years ago.

All I'm doing is explaining where my information came from. If lack of links makes you doubt it, that's fine.

[HiPointDem]

17. ok, no links. so i'll stick with the information i can verify, which says NK & SK are roughly

similar in arable land & both have been rice exporters.

Pyongyang means "flat land" & was an ancient capital. so i'm pretty sure that historically they did well at agriculture. climate in nk & sk is comparable.

[jeff47]

20. You should probably read your own links more carefully, then

Such as this part:

North Korea's climate precludes double-cropping of rice in most areas

That couldn't possibly be relevant when comparing the two. :rolleyes:

[HiPointDem]

24. which continues: "and different methods had to be devised to increase productivity. One method

is to use cold-bed seeding, a process that enables farmers to begin rice growing before the regular season by planting seedlings in protected, dry beds."



North Korea has a continental climate with four distinct seasons.[54] Long winters bring bitter cold and clear weather...The weather is likely to be particularly harsh in the northern, mountainous regions. Summer tends to be short, hot, humid, and rainy....

North Korea's climate is relatively temperate. Most of the country is classified as type Dwa in the Köppen climate classification scheme, with warm summers and cold, dry winters. In summer there is a short rainy season called changma...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea


South Korea has a temperate climate with four distinct seasons. Winters are usually long, cold, and dry, whereas summers are short, hot, and humid. Spring and autumn are pleasant but short in duration...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_South_Korea#Climate


according to this, double-cropping of rice isn't possible in SK either (2nd paragraph, 7th line). though i suspect in some areas of both places it is.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41142412?uid=3739856&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=47699083070767

[NickB79]

11. That's why I asked about any cultural barriers

You can grow more calories per acre with potatoes, for example, than you can with corn, wheat or rice, and you can do so in relatively infertile, rocky, cool soils. I'm just wondering why rice is still the predominant grain grown when there are so many better choices for this particular region? After all, it's said that millions of Irish survived quite well on nothing more than cow's milk and potatoes after the potato was introduced.

[jeff47]

14. Presumably some central planning gets in the way

but as a sibling link indicates, they do grow potatoes.

From the various sources I've read over the years, lack of good farmland has been the source of their problems for the last couple decades, and they were never very well fed.

[HiPointDem]

8. apparently not.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/6273079772/

More and more north korean people have private gardens to grow vegetables and fruits. they can keep them for themselves, but since few years, they can also sell them in grey markets.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. On whose land would you grow the garden?

Most residents of NK live in urban centers. What arable land there is is owned by the government and farmed by resident farmers.

[NickB79]

19. That's why I was asking about the rural areas

The link I put up states that rural areas have disproportionately more malnourished people than urban areas, and I was wondering why this is so?

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. The obvious conclusion is that the food they grow is diverted to the urban centers. nt

[HiPointDem]

22. i don't get it. i posted a picture of private gardens in nk, taken by someone who's been there,

and you tell me they don't exist.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/6288366970/

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. Never been there.

But in general, the property under those gardens is owned by "the people" and if dear leader wants it he can take it.

[HiPointDem]

25. but the guy who took the photo has. he says n koreans have private gardens.

so does this source, p. 168:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lgZierjOjYIC&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=private+gardens+north+korea&source=bl&ots=1_TZxG6Uxs&sig=Od73WhQsKzKVaj7AvOzrijuvOn0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w7PXT7CzHeXg2AXUv8W9Dw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwADgK#


just wondering why people are so quick to believe everything the media prints about our official enemies, given the long history of disinformation about such things -- incubator babies, etc.

i try to look around for more information when i read things that don't ring true -- such as north korea can't grow food because it's too mountainous.