Do YOU support the ten-point Black Lives Matter Manifesto?

[Ken Burch]

(Source: http://politicsbreaking.com/black-lives-matter-just-delivered-10-point-manifesto-want/)

1. End "broken windows" policing, which aggressively polices minor crimes in an attempt to stop larger ones.
2. Use community oversight for misconduct rather than having the police department decide what consequences officers should face....
3. Make standards for reporting police use of deadly force.
4. Independently investigate and prosecute police misconduct.
5. Have the racial makeup of police departments reflect the communities they serve.
6. Require officers to wear body cameras.
7. Provide more training for police officers.
8. End for-profit policing practices.
9. End the police use of military equipment.
10. Implement police union contracts that hold officers accountable for misconduct.

(Corollary question: should HRC come out in full support of this manifesto in her acceptance speech at Philly?)

77 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	I wholeheartedly support the entire manifesto
	44 (57%)
	I oppose the entire manifesto
	0 (0%)
	I support some but not all of the manifesto
	33 (43%)
	Other
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[BlueNoMatterWho]

1. #9 will never happen with attacks like Dallas happening.

[Ken Burch]

9. In Dallas, the cops HAD military equipment. It didn't help.

Riot tanks are useless against well-trained snipers...and there are a lot of people who just got that training in Iraq or Afghanistan or Libya and are home without jobs or hope or anyone to talk them down from what's boiling up inside them.

[BlueNoMatterWho]

11. They will never give it up after those types of attacks.

[peace13]

15. This could be implemented over a period of time.

I would suggest a study be done on former soldiers using military equipment on civilians and any possibility of problems there. It seems to me that if one has fought battles using such equipment in 'war' that in the heat of things in a civilian situation, discerning the enemy and proper use of force might become a problem.

[1StrongBlackMan]

2. Yes, HRC should come out in support of the manifesto ...

And tie Federal dollars to their implementation.

[bluedye33139]

17. I agree

I agree and think that this could be the most important issue facing her administration.

[arcane1]

3. I think it's great, though I'm not 100% sure what "community oversight" means...

That said, I definitely agree with not "having the police department decide what consequences officers should face" so it's just a matter of detail and not intent.

I really can't imagine anyone opposing these 10 ideas unless they're an asshole.

[Exilednight]

41. I was wondering the same thing. How does communitu

Oversight work unless their are non-profit lawyers willing to do the work.

[TipTok]

65. It's a spectrum I suppose...

... ranging from community input into the board recommendations with strong NDAs all the way to no cops, all civilians who vote for what they believe the community wants setting aside policy and law.

[Shrike47]

4. All but #5. If the population make up shifts, who do we fire? Quotas in hiring unconstitutional.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. I don't think they mean it quite that literally

But if a neighborhood is 95 percent black but the police force in that nabe is 5% black it's a problem

[Igel]

56. If they don't say what they mean, then how do you know what they mean?

All you got is their words to figure out authorial intent.

Lots of people like to speak but when you point out what they say makes no sense or is un-Constitutional, they suddenly back up and say, "Didn't mean that." Ask what they did mean and there's the gentle sound of crickets in the background until they say something completely different.

I gave up omniscience in 3rd grade. It was about the same time I stopped blindly being a team player, worrying about fitting in with "my group" and stopped thinking of things primarily in emotional terms. (I like to joke that my inner Aspie woke up.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

78. read the language, there is no way this implies exact numbers

[arcane1]

10. I can see that being changed to have officers live in the communities they serve

Though even that would have to be somewhat flexible, since three's no assurance that every precinct will always have enough people inte4rested in joining the force, and some people will move for various reasons, etc.

[TeddyR]

79. How are you going to require police to live in the communities they serve?

I'm sure there are a lot of police that would tell you they would not live in the communities they serve. And the quota thing is nonsense.

[arcane1]

82. Clearly it would require changing or creating laws

There has been talk of that here in San Francisco but I don't know if it's gone anywhere.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. I support their goals and their strategy

Civil disobedience only seems poetic in retrospect. In real time everyone second guesses and back seat drives activists

[Ken Burch]

13. At the time of the freedom movement, a lot of the old line AA leadership opposed civil disobedience

and denounced Dr. King for employing it as a tactic.

And most of the white American politial leaders who now ritually praise Dr. King's "dream" every January saw him as a dangerous radical back in the day. Even many of the liberal champions in that era wanted the young activists to stop the protests or at least dramatically scale them back. Including Bobby Kennedy as attorney general(Bobby didn't get good on civil rights until after JFK was assassinated).

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. Yup. More recently people mocked and belittled gay rights activists

Or HIV AIDS activists.

People only think civil disobedience is pretty years after the fact.

[Ken Burch]

24. And look at how much grief Occupy got, even from a lot of "progressives".

Everyone praises the activists...AFTER the activism is done with.

(Another example was the Malcolm X fan club in the Nineties...an era when huge numbers of my fellow white Americans suddenly realized Malcolm was exactly the kind of black leader they most revered...well-spoken...clean-living...dead.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. RIGHT!! totes forgot about them, but you are so right

[kentuck]

6. Sounds very reasonable to me.

rec.

[peace13]

8. Interesting.

Number 5 might make some departments too white....for lack of a better way to put it.

[Blue_Tires]

12. Good for a start...

[Ken Burch]

16. And what would you add after that?

n/t.

[baldguy]

71. End asset forfeiture, and end the drug war.

[Ken Burch]

72. Good ones. n/t.

[NaturalHigh]

81. Wouldn't that fall under #8?

[Blue_Tires]

74. Prison reform

And addressing the racial disparity in how courts do sentencing...

[UnFettered]

18. I would also like to see something

About a failed war on drugs that's is almost entirely waged in minority neighborhoods and community's. Which contributes to a high incarceration rates and destroys community's.

[JanMichael]

19. Add in a BA minimum then yes. The reason?

Unless it is a private "get what you pay for diploma" most people have to deal with a lot of shit to get a BA. And may (or do less violent and more tolerant people choose higher education? I'm guessing a little of both.) come out more tolerant and less violent.

Finishing 120 hours and finishing alone can be a predictor of tolerance capacity. It isn't perfect but when it comes to what police officers have to do it sure seems like a good start.

And just like teaching at a Title 1 school can wipe out your loan debt why not do the same for police officers? And if someone wants to be a police officer, but cannot pay for college, cover their tuition if they serve for 5 years or more.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/study-cops-college-degrees-force-citizens/

[Nevernose]

21. And a professional licensing board

If s teacher or a nurse fucks up, they lose their license and their career. Of course, that would only work if it were in conjunction with the "civilian oversight" in those ten things.

[Travis_0004]

23. The NAACP sued to remove the 4 year requirement from New Jersey

As a result of that lawsuit, New Jersey is legally not allowed a 4 year degree requirement.

When that case settled, hundreds of departments dropped the 4 year requirement basically overnight, because they did not want to be sued next.

[JanMichael]

25. While I understand why they did that I don't think it helps.

Maybe call it an example of the law of unintended consequences? Or the road to hell is paved with good intentions?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. The naacp and the courts were right

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. No. It has no predictive validity to performing the job

Unnecessary degrees reduce minority participation further

[JanMichael]

73. So I guess that linked study on cop violence means nothing?

Studies mean nothing?

That reduction in violence is what BLM is all about right?

Degrees or education is only "unnecessary" to the HS and less crowd, or the uneducated, and consevatives.

[Quackers]

20. Not number 5

It would just end up segregating people.

[uponit7771]

33. Hmmm, why do you think what we have right now isn't segregating us already? thx in advance for your

... input

[Quackers]

38. right now my local PD has several AA officers.

If the police are required to higher based on the local demographic, then they would be forced out and replaced with white officers. That doesn't help with race relations or tolerance. I understand what they are wanting from #5 but it would have unintended consequences.

[Albertoo]

22. Most are OK, except #1

The broken window theory is what got crime spectacularly down in NYC.
It's been successfully adopted in the UK. It just works.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. No, it really wasn't. At all.

[Albertoo]

50. Yes it did. Please refer to graph in #49

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. A correlation is not a causation. Once you account for multiple other variables

There is no relationship with persecuting poor and minority communities with bullshut minor violations and violent crime.

[Albertoo]

54. True, but causation can produce correlation

And honestly, you probably know in yourself it's true: it's human nature.
Let people get away with something, and they'll go for bigger infringements.

I understand from the reactions here that the broken windows might have been felt harder by minorities, but I would venture that there are probably better adjustments to the policy than throwing the baby with the bathwater.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. Actually it's patently false. Just because I smoke weed doesn't

In any way indicate that I will murder someone.

I'll search for the many studies that show this has not worked, when I'm not on my phone, but you are simply wrong and data does not substantiate this hypothesis.

[Albertoo]

69. Here is a study published in 'Science' that validated 'broken window'

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/322/5908/1681

[uponit7771]

34. Do you have a source on that? It seems like crime came down altogether

[Albertoo]

49. Just look at the graph, NYC criminality went from over to below average

[AntiBank]

39. mixed results

http://cebcp.org/evidence-based-policing/what-works-in-policing/research-evidence-review/broken-windows-policing/

[Igel]

58. And that is the winning answer.

Most of the rest of the claims are based mostly on confirmation bias.

"I don't like broken-windows models of policing, so if another justification can be found, that's the right one."

The problem is that this is all post-hoc, and trying to control for all the factors that are relevant is very, very tricky. Most don't. They control for the factors they think are relevant.

Education's riddled with this problem. If race and education and income are very tightly correlated, do you attribute everything to racism that you can or do you attribute what you can to income and let racism be what's left over?

[Albertoo]

61. That's why we have multifactor analysis

[Ken Burch]

48. It ends up leading to relentless police harassment of everyone in a community

over trivial offenses like littering or just standing on a street.

It caused the police to act as if NO ONE in Black or Latino neighborhoods was ever considered an innocent bystander.

It created the mindset that both sanctioned and massively increased police violence.

Nothing but ugliness came of "broken windows".

[Albertoo]

51. Nothing but ugliness came of "broken windows"?

Did you see NYC for yourself before and after 10 years of 'broken windows"?

[Ken Burch]

57. You've established corrrelation, not causation.

Crime went down in NYC at the time of "broken windows". That doesn't prove it went down BECAUSE of "broken windows".

And it doesn't justify the harassment and persecution whole neighborhoods were subjected to under "broken windows".

There was never a need to have cops beat people and throw them in to cells at Rikers for littering and loitering.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. And it's not a theory as much as a hypothesis that police

Liked the sound of, because it justified a lot of intrusion in certain communities

[Warpy]

28. There has to be a little wiggle room on the racial makeup quota

and I'm thinking they'll have trouble finding good, qualified white applicants in a lot of areas when they start to disqualify Klanners, Neo Nazis, and other white power idiots.

That was only partially tongue in cheek. White power groups have had a police infiltration program going for decades, one reason so many departments have so many bad cops.

[uponit7771]

35. lol... you're so right, I always wondered why the cops seemed like they hated me an my friends in..

... Kansas City, you know... the place were the one cop in Johnson County threatened the woman's children with death online... yeah, they're still that bad and I've not lived there in decades... its the Ferguson of the west side of the Show Me State.

Anywho, seems like a more stringent screening process (screening for them being assholes not just crazy) would help

[Lance Bass esquire]

29. I agree with everything but #9

Criminals are on the cutting edge of technology as well. This makes #9 impractical.

Remember the North Hollywood shootout in 97?

Not same scenario as now but good example of cops lagging behind the times I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout


The two well-armored men had fired approximately 1,100 rounds, while approximately 650 rounds were fired by police.[2] Following their training, the responding patrol officers directed their fire at the "center of mass," or torsos, of Mătăsăreanu and Phillips. However, aramid body armor worn by Phillips and Mătăsăreanu covered all of their vitals (except their heads) while providing more bullet resistance than standard-issue police Kevlar vests, enabling them to absorb pistol bullets and shotgun pellets, while Mătăsăreanu's chest armor, thanks to a metal trauma plate, even successfully withstood a hit from a SWAT officer's AR-15. The service pistols carried by the first responding officers had insufficient range and relatively poor accuracy, and additionally they were pinned down by the robbers' high rate of fire, making it difficult to attempt a headshot. Each robber was shot and penetrated by at least ten bullets, yet both were able to continue shooting.

The ineffectiveness of the standard police patrol pistols and shotguns in penetrating the robbers' body armor led to a trend in the United States toward arming selected police patrol officers, not just SWAT teams, with heavier firepower such as semi-automatic 5.56 mm AR-15 type rifles. SWAT teams, whose close quarters battle weaponry usually consisted of submachine guns that fired pistol cartridges such as the Heckler & Koch MP5, began supplementing them with AR-15-rifles and carbines.[16] Seven months after the incident, the Department of Defense gave 600 surplus M16s to the LAPD, which were issued to each patrol sergeant;[34][35] LAPD patrol vehicles now carry AR-15s as standard issue, with bullet-resistant Kevlar plating in their doors as well.[36] Also as a result of this incident LAPD authorized its officers to carry .45 ACP caliber semiautomatic pistols as duty sidearms, specifically the Smith & Wesson Models 4506 and 4566. Prior to 1997, only LAPD SWAT officers were authorized to carry .45 ACP caliber pistols, specifically the Model 1911A1 .45 ACP semiautomatic pistol.[37]



JMHO

[uponit7771]

31. +1, on its face it seems pretty reasonable and achievable ... number 6 and number 10 are hard ones

... though.

[MadDAsHell]

32. Support everything but number five; why are we calling out race as the only differing characteristic

I see this all the time in our society; we are so race and gender obsessed.

For instance, who would be a better political representative and more sympathetic to the plight of Americans? Billionaire Michael Jordan, simply because he's a racial minority? Or a single mom, of any race, who has had to deal with poverty, juggling multiple jobs to support a family, etc? Or someone who is LGBTQ?

The sooner we move away from the obsession with race and gender and instead focus on the unique and important qualities of the individual PERSON, the better.

[uponit7771]

40. Believe it or not America is one of the most racially tolerant countries in the world (link)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

I think number 5 is from the FBI study stating there's KKK folk infultrating depts. It was in Ferguson where the KKK started a go fundme for the cop Wilson where Wilson didn't even fill out a report

That could be remedied by screening out assholes instead of just crazy people and the leadership holding them responsible for fucking up and citizen complaints.

[Ken Burch]

43. A KKK "go fundie" for Wilson? What were they gonna FUND? A tailored white sheet?

[GeorgeGist]

36. Always ask for more than you expect.

[Ken Burch]

46. Absolutely. n/t.

[Exilednight]

42. Here's one I would add: stop using fines as a source of revenue.

Instead, put all policing into a budget and have it paid strictly thru tax dollars.

[Ken Burch]

45. That's good.

There are towns in the South that pretty much fund the whole city budget with speeding tickets from out-of-towners(and there's that little place in Texas that pulls over all the tour buses for touring bands and nails them for possession).

[Igel]

59. That leaves few choices.

Money's fungible. If a town gets $100k in fines from the courts and it goes into the town budget, it's money in the budget. It's neither tax dollars nor fine money, it's just "money."

You can avoid that by having no fines. No fines for speeding, unsafe vehicles, failing to yield right of way or running red lines. Then you have high-stakes penalties. Speed, and lose your license. Or there are no penalties, meaning a lot of folks will just ignore the speed limits.

(Police departments have budgets.)

[Ken Burch]

66. What you don't seem to realize, though, is that in a lot of communities

the cops will pull you over(especially if you're a POC)even if you've done nothing wrong at all. Philandro Castile didn't HAVE a broken taillight, yet the cops pulled him over and then shot him just for reaching for his ID, THEN kept holding a gun on him and his girlfriend and his small daughter(despite the fact that he was clearly physically incapable of being a threat) rather then lowering their guns and driving the poor guy to a hospital before he bled to death.

It's not as simple as "don't do bad things". If you're young, black, and male, the cops will kill you even if you've done nothing. Just like the Tsarist police did to your ancestors in the Pale.

[Iggo]

44. God yes.

[kentuck]

47. Does anyone have a problem with the word, "Manifesto"?

If so, why?

[Travis_0004]

53. I have a question on 5

Where I live is 95% white. Our police force is about 15% black.

Should we fire a few black police officers or refuse to hire any new black officers until our department is more white?

I think our department does a great job, and I hope (the younger) officers put in 20 more years here.

[LongtimeAZDem]

55. 4 is worthless unless both sides agree in advance to publicly support the investigation results (nt)

[jamese777]

60. No problem with police using military equipment

I particularly favor police use of military body armor.

No HRC should not endorse this manifesto at the convention. Its too generaluzed and it would give Trump a tactical advantage to attack her. What "manifesto" do conservatives denigrate those on the left with?

[DemocraticWing]

67. If anything, I would say more things are needed. But that manifesto is a great start.

[TipTok]

68. Down the line

1. End "broken windows" policing, which aggressively polices minor crimes in an attempt to stop larger ones.

Good with broken windows

2. Use community oversight for misconduct rather than having the police department decide what consequences officers should face....

Input, not control


3. Make standards for reporting police use of deadly force.

Sure...

4. Independently investigate and prosecute police misconduct.

Usually, yes

5. Have the racial makeup of police departments reflect the communities they serve.

They are free to apply. Qualification should always trump skin color.

6. Require officers to wear body cameras.

As long as the release process is throrough and protects everyone involved

7. Provide more training for police officers.

Always

8. End for-profit policing practices.

Yes, in practice. There might be a decent program out there that I'm not thinking of at the moment.

9. End the police use of military equipment.

Nope

10. Implement police union contracts that hold officers accountable for misconduct.

Dunno what this means..

[Lee-Lee]

70. Most is good, but like all things the details matter

It's easy to list one or two sentence bullet points that sound good to everyone, but it's another matter to get into the weeds on exactly what you mean.

Broken windows policing has its place and time, but like any method can be abused. I've seen departments go way overboard with it, and I've seen departments use it in a targeted way that worked to drive the criminal element from an area and made all the residents of that area happy.

Civilian oversight is a big can of worms- what exactly do they mean? Being judged on how you do your job and enforce the law by a group of people who have never been trained to do your job or trained on what the law is can be a giant mess if they are making decisions that are not based on policy or law but feelings and politics.

The racial makeup should represent the community- but don't lower standards to get there.

[Vattel]

75. I am not terribly impressed with this, but I like some of it.

Body cameras are, on balance, a really good idea, although as some BLM activists point out, they can be abused. One can't hire on the basis of race, but one can take knowledge of a community as a qualification for the job. So having a police force that reflects the community is more doable than one might suppose, and it is a good idea IMO. "More training" is too modest of a goal. Higher standards of behavior coupled with the necessary training to enable officers to meet those standards would be an improvement. The need for higher standards for officers is, I think, really important. Until the government is committed to protecting the fourth amendment rights of the citizens, abuses will be routine.

[modem77]

76. Support most of them but I doubt #2 and #4 would hold up in courts.

[Evergreen Emerald]

77. Could you explain #1 more..I don't quite understand what you mean

Mostly I agree. I have a problem with end the use of military equipment --until civilians also end their use of military weapons. You saw what happened in Dallas when the officers were not wearing the full riot gear. They were vulnerable to attack by someone using military weapons.

I am not certain regarding #1, what that specifically entails.

[4139]

80. As some who was arrested and prosecuted for 'breaking a window'

They should keep broken window policing

[Mc Mike]

83. Community control of police, like the real Black Panthers wanted. rec, nt.