Telling black people to 'be nice to cops' to prevent being murdered is evil as hell

[bravenak]

Why do people pretend that black folks get shot by the cops because they have BAD MANNERS? Like, what? We weren't raised right so it's fucking cool to go ahead a shoot our sons and daughters during a bullshit traffic stop if they forgot to read and memorize the "Miss Manners" book on polite police interaction?
When did people get it into their heads that it is just hunky dory to shoot and kill rude black people? From the plantation or where? Any excuse to make it seem like black people are just supernatural and so different in behaviour than 'real people'...
If the kill rate for cops was at 80 percent white people and twenty percent everybody else, would they say the same thing then? Or would it be considered an epidemic of police violence, you know, like what it actually is. An epidemic of police violence.

I'll just state this clearly so everybody can understand. Stop telling black people to 'be polite' and they won't get murdered by the police. When you do that, you uphold and enforce white supremacy and state violence directed at black humans by placing the blame for their own potential murder squarely on the victim of that potential murder. It's like telling people not to dress sexy if they don't want to be raped. How about saying, 'Dont fucking rape people!!"

Time to stop making premade excuses as to why it might be okay to murder a black person during a police stop for having bad manners. We don't execute the rude. You're dumb if you think that manners are the real reason why black people keep getting killed by cops. We been getting killed by cops since we started having cops. Because we're black. Time to reform the system instead of trying to force black people to be perfect or die.

[BumRushDaShow]

1. That is their default response

when they fuck up.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

164. Yup yup... time to stop the insanity.

[malaise]

2. Amazing indeed

Read this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027997739

[bravenak]

46. That was awesome

[malaise]

48. Scary but beautifully written

Folks have no clue why there's so much high blood pressure among African American males and females.

[Surya Gayatri]

179. Visceral fear and one's body being constantly in "fight or flight" mode.

[Duckhunter935]

3. I think everyone should be nice

Police and citizens

[NobodyHere]

6. +1

I'm not sure why telling someone to be nice is evil.

[Duckhunter935]

7. Yep

[Blues Heron]

14. when your implying that they're being killed

Because "they weren't raised to be polite" like Guilliani just did, you're victim blaming. And that's evil as hell, like Bravenak said. It's quite simple really.

[Duckhunter935]

17. My statement does not mean I agree with

That idiot. My statement speaks for itself, all people, police and citizens need to be polite.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

87. It's lost on you!

[brush]

113. It would be nice if everyone, were polite, but failing to do so shouldn't be a death sentence

[yeoman6987]

112. I am extremely courteous to police

I even say thank you after getting a ticket.... After I drive off I am pissed especially at myself.

[Rex]

15. Woooooosssshhh....

[awoke_in_2003]

27. He probably

didnt even hear the woosh, it was so far over his head.

[uponit7771]

21. We get killed even when we're nice, you get that right? tia

[Duckhunter935]

25. Did you miss the police part?

[uponit7771]

47. Did you miss the reality part? Being nice makes no difference, we're still killed.. NONE of that...

... makes a difference, my life or my 8 year olds life or my wifes life isn't worth shit to some of these municipalities and no matter how polite or nice or whatever... we get killed.

Everyone should be nice should go without saying so it doesn't add to anything to say it... JMHE

[Duckhunter935]

50. Then I will just shut the fuck up

Because it must be wrong to hope all people should be nice. Sorry to even think that might be possible. Have a great day.

[stonecutter357]

181. Then I will just shut the fuck up.....

[jack_krass]

158. Being nice gives you the best chance of not being killed

[uponit7771]

187. This is false, not being black gives me the best chance of not being killed. The kid in Colorado was

... nice and go brain damage for being beat so bad by the cops and then sued them for a million dollars, won and the cops who beat him were STILL ... STILL on the force before calling some other person nigger and beating them too.

The kid was mixed race and never had a bad encounter with the cops till then

The cops are not held responsible for their actions, that the bigger issue so being nice .. being curteous all of that doesn't help when there's a person who is a bigot and doesn't like your skin color.

[Squinch]

203. That twelve year old kid sitting on a swing who was shot within seconds of the police

entering the playground - was he being impolite somehow?

Yours is a very ignorant statement.

[Duckhunter935]

205. Unfortunately he just had a realistic looking toy gun

And video showed him pointing it at people. The police action was inexcusable and they should have been at the minimum fired. I would prefer in a cell somewhere.

[Squinch]

208. I guess playing with a toy was not nice of him. So he had to die.

[Duckhunter935]

214. Not a realisic looking toy gun at night

I think those toy guns and pellet guns should be a completely different form, style and color than a real firearm. He should not have been killed, the cops were so wrong in their response.

[Squinch]

216. I guess they are really impolite.

[Duckhunter935]

218. Yes, and should be in jail, like I said several times.

[Squinch]

220. Because everyone forgot their niceness lessons.

[Duckhunter935]

223. There response was inexcusable

They should be in jail

[Squinch]

225. That would seem to go quite a bit farther than any conversation about people needing to be nice.

In fact, it would make any statements that attributed the situation to a lack of "niceness" to be stunningly insensitive and dismissive, wouldn't it?

[Duckhunter935]

226. Yes my call to be polite

Must be stretched to every possible situation. Good grief, but if they were slower and yes more polite and respectful, I expect that child would be alive today.

[Squinch]

227. The possible situations that we are talking about, the ones this thread is about and which

your post was responding about, were situations in which people were murdered for no apparent reason. That is not me stretching your call to be polite. That is you calling politeness the solution in situations where people are murdered for no good reason.

[Duckhunter935]

228. And if we could get the policing

Changed so they were more like European police and yes more polite, my hope is it would all but end these senseless killing.

[jack_krass]

233. What I said is unarguably true. I stand by it and I'll say it again:

Being nice, courteous, docile, respectful, etc, gives you the best odds for avoid a violent confrontation if you are stopped by police.

Will it guarantee you won't be hit, shot, struck by lightning? No (nothing in life will), but it gives you the best odds. It's what I've taught my children to do.

[Squinch]

234. This is a thread in which a black person is saying, "Don't tell black people to be polite

in order to prevent their being murdered by police. It's evil."

And you are YET ANOTHER poster who then responds by saying "Be polite in order to prevent yourself from being murdered by police."

First of all, it is ignorant because the vast majority of these people who have been murdered have not been "impolite."

Second, it is cruel and insensitive. It trivializes what is happening randomly to innocent black people, it throws a Band-Aid at a tsunami, and it blames people for something they had no part in causing and which, in turn, caused their deaths.

But I am sure you will stand by your statement and think you are righteous.

[jack_krass]

238. Don't put words in my mouth. I'd never tell black people to

be polite, and I don't appreciate you saying I did. You're basically calling me a racist.

Had your read my post you'd have seen that Im telling ALL people, including my own fucking children, to be polite and curteous in a situation of being stopped by police.

My motivation is to counter some stupid shit posted somewhere here saying you should basically do the opposite.

[Squinch]

239. It's exactly what you said, in response to an OP that said not to do that.

[creeksneakers2]

176. You don't all get killed

Its unfair but its still good advice to avoid being one of the unlucky ones.

[uponit7771]

188. lofl.... yeah, that's some solace there "you don't ALL get killed"... just some hunh?... lol.

[creeksneakers2]

231. Of course

it wasn't meant to be solace. You said suspects are killed whether they are polite or not.

[nomorenomore08]

209. Just 3.5 times more likely (by one estimate) than if they were white.

And why do you assume people *don't* know to be polite to cops? There's been an endless series of posts (not just on DU) from and about black mothers, instilling that in their children. Precisely so cops won't have an excuse to physically harm them.

[creeksneakers2]

232. Its easy to forget to be polite

under the pressure. That's not just true for blacks.

[malaise]

26. Good examples of

that WP

[caraher]

52. A very timely observation, because...

people responded to the Dallas shooting by telling police to be more polite, rather than condemning those shootings as fanning the flames of hatred?

Please direct your hose to the right...

[LanternWaste]

184. Wishing someone a Happy New Year doesn't trivialize or minimize the Fourth of July, yes?

Telling one person "happy birthday" is neither rude nor dismissive of the thousands of others with concurrent birthdays, no? (All Birthdays Matter!)

Wishing someone a Happy New Year doesn't trivialize or minimize the Fourth of July, yes? (All Holidays Matter!)

[Squinch]

201. Did you make this statement to purposely be cruel and insensitive, or are you

actually unaware that the statement is cruel and insensitive?

In case you are ignorant, here is what is wrong with your statement: it dismisses the severity of what is happening to African Americans. It says that these killings are a matter of bad manners and lack of niceness, thereby implying that the fault of the murders lies with the murdered. You are being facetious in a conversation about people being murdered randomly for a trait that is shared by many of the people who will read your statement, and who are therefore subject to the same random death sentence.

It's really pretty ugly all around.

[Duckhunter935]

206. Ok, everyone should not be nice

Better

[Squinch]

207. And here you are doubling down on it.

[Duckhunter935]

211. Whatever I say would be wrong in your opinion

So what's the point. I just think the police need to reform their ways and stop terrorizing people.

[Squinch]

213. You could self delete the post that minimizes the seriousness of the issue of people being

murdered for no reason.

[Duckhunter935]

217. I prefer to let my posts stand for all to see

Calling for politeness is wrong, oh well. It was kind of aimed towards the police officers that abuse their power, FYI.

[Squinch]

219. No. It was aimed at "police and citizens". None of whom are shot over "niceness."

I had no doubt that you meant your post to do exactly what your post did, and that you meant to let it stand.

[Duckhunter935]

221. Whatever you say, nice to know you can read my mind

[Squinch]

222. Well, no. I am reading your action.

[Duckhunter935]

224. My words are very simple

Everybody should be polite, citizens are already for the most part, the police need to be also. The whole chip on your shoulder police officer bullshit needs to stop also. Not very polite.

[Squinch]

229. This is a thread about the fact that telling black people to be polite to police in order not to

be murdered is evil.

Your reply was that police and citizens need to be nicer.

So a black person is telling you, "Don't say this thing to black people. It's evil."

Then you reply by saying exactly that thing.

[nomorenomore08]

210. Of course they should. But "rudeness" is a laughably flimy reason for shooting someone. n/t

[tblue37]

4. It's like requiring women to wear burqas because they are considered to be responsible

if some men cannot control their own impulses if they see anything at all uncovered, even a glimpse of a quarter inch of wrist skin. In a case like that, the problem is with the man who responds to the fact that a woman is a woman. The problem is not that the woman has revealed her sexual lures by letting him see a tiny bit of skin on her wrist.

IOW, the men who think women have to be 100% covered up or else expect suffer the consequences of male viciousness are a lot like cops who think a person walking or driving around openly wearing skin that is not white is responsible for provoking the cops to insult and attack them.

[tblue37]

5. Oh, and K&R, of course. nt

[bravenak]

19. Exactly. Fucking disgusting

We don't say, "don't accept a beverage from Bill Cosby if you don't want a good raping." Because t is crazy to say that shit, so I have no idea why we do it. But I actually had a convo with a person who blamed the women. Because they did not drink from the faucet instead. People are losing it with all this victim blaming.

[brer cat]

51. They aren't "losing it."

They are gaining...they don't have to think about it, they don't have to acknowledge white privilege, they don't have to accept any iota of responsibility, they don't have to grieve, they don't have to tire their little brains wondering how to make it stop. They gain freedom of thought and from action.

[Duckhunter935]

54. Who are "they"

[brer cat]

62. the victim blamers

[bravenak]

93. They need to check that shit

[nomorenomore08]

212. More like freedom *from* thought, if you know what I'm saying. n/t

[brer cat]

215. Yes, that is closer to the truth. eom

[uponit7771]

22. +1, placing the onus of someone else's violence on the oppressed

[Squinch]

202. My thought exactly. Those saying that AA people are being killed because of bad manners are

the same people who say women are raped because their clothes are immodest.

[guillaumeb]

8. Gladly recommended.

And this is very clear indeed:

I'll just state this clearly so everybody can understand. Stop telling black people to 'be polite' and they won't get murdered by the police. When you do that, you uphold and enforce white supremacy and state violence directed at black humans by placing the blame for their own potential murder squarely on the victim of that potential murder. It's like telling people not to dress sexy if they don't want to be raped. How about saying, 'Dont fucking rape people!!"

Excellent point comparing victims of rape violence and state violence. Because this IS state violence. The same violence that the US Empire used and continues to use against countless people in many other countries is also used against the bottom 99% in this country.

The heavily militarized US police are waging war on the US population, especially the non-white elements, using the same weapons and tactics used out of country.

If the Bundy family was a black family most of them would be dead or in prison waiting trial.

[gwheezie]

9. Black people are experts on getting along with white folks

I don't know what else you're supposed to do.
What baffles me is how people are supposed to try to figure out what a screaming cop wants you to do when they give multiple contradictory commands. Or give a command a person follows and they get shot anyway. Yelling put your hands up while shooting a person, to me is not a command. Or giving a command you can't do while demanding you do it.
And why scream fuck all the time.

[bravenak]

37. It's fucked up to know the excuses they'd make if they killed me

[gwheezie]

56. Couple years back

Remember that video of the cop follows a black guy in a white truck to the gas station and orders him out of the truck at gunpoint and then tells him show his license, so the guy leans in the truck to get it and the cop shot him. Guy survived but hes saying to the cop, why'd you shoot me, I was getting my license. The cop had lost his damn mind, screaming at the guy like why'd you make me shoot you.
So I think some of them give multiple commands, yell don't resist or gun so all bases are covered for the shooting.

[Duckhunter935]

58. More cops like that need to be fired

That is for sure

[bravenak]

77. I remember that

Video of it got that cop arrested. I was shocked that they even bothered arresting him

[brush]

117. Yep! That Minnesota killer cop should never have been given a gun and badge

He gave the guy a command then killed him when he tried to comply.

What is glaring to me and is overlooked, why did the cop have his gun out and pointing into the car for a traffic stop? What the f_ck is up with that?

He was on the driver side, his partner on the other side. They've got everything is covered right, so why is a drawn gun needed for a busted tail light traffic stop?

Scared, cowards don't need to be anywhere near a police force.

And that killer cop will probably get off.

[etherealtruth]

10. K&R

I am freaked out by some of the stuff I have read related to this

[bravenak]

43. Me too

I refuse to read the comments. Oh no!!! Can't handle that shit, I will lose my cool

[etherealtruth]

70. losing my mind ....

you read "be polite" (because that's why there is a crisis ) and then you read 'it was very strange that Philandro Castile's girl friend was "too POLITE and calm" as she documented what was going on (probably saved her life)

[bravenak]

71. It give me the spins

Too calm. Like it makes her deceptive in her pain.

[Rex]

11. Be nice to them as they are filling you full of holes? Some folks don't live in the real world imo.

It appears some folks need to be brutalized by cops, before they get it. Cop don't want you to be nice, they want you to comply with every order that comes out of their mouths. If you hesitate just a little bit, it might be the last thing you do.

That saying is stupid, like Nancy Reagan and her Just Say No to Drugs...cheap words with zero effort and zero impact. If anything, it is insulting to assume life is that simple.

IMO.

[bravenak]

44. Just say no was dumb

It FORCED me to go smoke weed cause it stressed me out.

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. Seriously

Infuriating

[bravenak]

23. Did he say 'be polite and you wont get shot'?

No. He did not. So I have no ide what you are fighting for or against

[Bernardo de La Paz]

28. OK, sorry, I did not recognize the clear thrust of your OP and took it another way. (self-deleting)

[sarae]

16. K & R

[rbrnmw]

18. Damn right

ever seen white police encounter? They can freely say whatever they want without ending up dead. Why is it OK for white folks to do something that would get a black person killed?

[bravenak]

20. I have watched white folks scream, rant, and tear up traffic tickets and speed off

Not shot

[rbrnmw]

30. me too

Mike and I were in the car once with a couple and they were talking massive shit to the cop. They were given a ticket politely sent on their way by the cop. But the cop wanted our ID's first, we were in the back of the car. He was stopped for running a Stop sign. Like we were accomplices in running the Stop sign.

[Rex]

31. You can call them a 'God dam asshole' if you are white!

Please nobody take my word for it, just watch the video.

[bravenak]

35. Bingo!!! That's the one!

[Rex]

40. The man could have been arrested for simple assault. He seems to be so unstable and the cop

never once wants to search his car or body or even see why the guy is going bat shit crazy.

[bravenak]

42. I would have searched him for meth

He was out of control

[Rex]

45. Same here, I would have had him up against the car and called in for back up.

The man was unhinged, no way would I have let him drive off like that.

[uponit7771]

49. This one is even worse

[bravenak]

64. If he were black he'd have had a funeral

[uponit7771]

67. amen... no doubt

[Rex]

72. They would have skipped the taser and gone right for their pistols.

Saved by the color of his skin.

[uponit7771]

74. +1

[treestar]

103. Yeah that's egregious

they just let him run away. The comment was if he was black he'd be dead.

[uponit7771]

106. +1, the discourse on M$M allows for the skipping of this low hanging fruit; that blacks have a ...

... lower bar for being a threat overall.

Mother Jones did a story on this ... its pretty telling

[malaise]

60. He'd have been killed three times

if he were African-American or Hispanic.

The really hilarious part of that is how his tone changes when he hears that the insurance had expired

[cstanleytech]

135. Oh? That officer treated a black motorist differently for the same thing? Thats just wrong.

[Cosmocat]

125. The internet is chock full of videos of white gun

Owners open carrying and cops meekly kissing their asses before scurying away eith their tails tucked between their legs.

[bravenak]

132. I will never forget the Bundy Ranch stand off

Pointing rifles at police? Never get away with that in a black neighborhood. They bomb the building to get to one of us. Just one. Bombs! White dudes with a bunch of guns? Catch them later if at all.
During that Oregon standoff I said the same. No way would they let that go one for that long if it were a bunch of dark folksc

[Cosmocat]

182. That shit burned my ass to no end

cowardly POS on a bridge with a scoped rifle pointed at law enforcement.

But, hey, that was just patriotic Americans!

[Lucky Luciano]

24. If the kill rate were 80% white then the police would look much less racist...

Might still look like fascists though.

[bravenak]

33. They will always be fascists

[cosmicone]

29. Yes, it is evil and someday such advice won't be necessary

However, in the current environment, it will save lives.

I am not AA but I wouldn't argue constitutionality of discrimination and fairness with a cop whose nerves are frayed plus a right and the means to execute deadly force on me.

[bravenak]

32. It gets to the point when peopke snap under centuries of oppression

To keep the peace it might be time for new rules. We don't need folks so frustrated that they snap and start sniping innocent cops for shit that the bad cops do. Many excuse the killing of blacks by going to stat onblack crime but never excise the killing of cops by going to the stats on cops killing blacks. Shit is getting out of hand and I think that with all these guns flowing, it might be time for cops to learn self control and manners themselves.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

65. The cops in this country have been pointing weapons

at and killing our citizens for well over two centuries and they are unlikely to change anytime soon.

They are obsessed with the rule of law and maintaining the status quo at all costs.

The question is, who is the enemy?

[cosmicone]

69. Anger is at the root of all violence

and anger precludes wisdom at times.

[sangfroid]

101. Perhaps

So the question then becomes how many times can people be treated as subhuman by 'roided up uniformed thugs before people stop falling back on the old "let's all be nice" routine? It essentially sacrifices a group's humanity to the idea of a "nice society."

[elleng]

34. Not 'evil,' imo, but extremely foolish,

and by some, stupid, and by others, callous and hateful. We all have to choose our words carefully.

[stage left]

36. K&R

I could probably flip off a policeman at a traffic stop and not get murdered. White privilege. Not that I'm going to test that theory anytime soon. It's incomprehensible to me that white people think they know what it is to be a black person in this country better than black people do. I don't know and can't know. Victim blaming is ugly and yes, evil. It's evil when it's done to women who have been raped and black people who've been murdered. Men shouldn't rape. The police shouldn't murder. Period. And, if they do, they shouldn't get away with it.

[bravenak]

39. Exactly. Should'nt get away with it.

[liberalmuse]

38. Sadly, you can't escape racism.

Even on DU. Look at the some of the comments from privileged white people. It is pretty disheartening seeing some of the worst of it coming from longtime posters. Proof that even liberals can be racist. Racism is real, and it is insidiously pervasive in our society. So much so, that most of us either don't recognize it, or refuse to acknowledge it in those times that it is more than obvious. It makes me sick watching people who have never experienced racism "scolding" people who experience racism day in and day out. There are way too many people being condescending, because some part of them actually believes because they are melanin poor that they are superior and therefore they have the fucking right to weigh in on this issue and give advice to people who know so much more than they do. No you don't.

[bravenak]

41. Makes me sick too

[oberliner]

53. What advice would you give to black people?

Based on the current reality, what would be your advice?

[Duckhunter935]

57. I am not the OP

But I think it needs to be a total revamp of how our police officers operate. We need to to take that chip off of their shoulder and gave the respect to citizens just as they want respect from the citizens. Respect and politeness goes both ways.

[oberliner]

59. I agree

But that's what needs to happen on the police side. Given the current situation, though, what advice would you give to people who are not police officers (in particular, black people) in terms of the best way to deal with encounters with the police?

[IL Lib]

78. Most of us deal with LE in a respectful manner,

because we know that we can be killed at any moment and it will be ruled to be justified. How would it feel if you knew you could essentially be killed by the state and know that it would go unpunished? Why is it assumed (not necessarily by you) that we don't act in a respectful manner? More than not black people are just nervous with the interaction. When whites are nervous upon being stopped, they may fear being issued a ticket, when we're nervous we fear being shot and killed. Whenever I'm driving I'm always aware of the police. I have to be. It's like I have a sensor.

The only analogy I can make is that by being a male I'm sure there are things that I don't experience as far as safety is concerned that females do. I can go out alone anytime of day or night and not have to worry about being sexually assaulted. Not saying that it doesn't happen to guys but most guys just don't even take it into consideration, where many women do. They are more vulnerable because they are women. Being a male it's not hard to understand. It's just perplexing that a good majority of people find it hard to believe that some cops have no problem killing AA whether they're cordial or not.

[oberliner]

171. Absolutely terrifying

The feeling that a routine traffic stop can lead to getting shot is something that most white people don't really consider. Part of the invisible backpack, as they say.

[mythology]

173. I think that it would be more accurate to explain what you are doing to the cop like

the cop is an idiot, because a while a smart cop might realize what you're doing, idiot with a gun is always dangerous (cop or otherwise), especially if they feel (accurately or otherwise) threatened. Expressly state what you are doing, if you have to do something strange, explain why, move slowly etc. Whether one "should" have to do that is another question, but we don't live in the world of "should" at this time. It's not about being polite, it's not about kowtowing to the "man", it's about decreasing the odds of being the victim of police violence. Will it prevent all police violence? Obviously not. But if the situation was as bad as some seem to think it is when they claim that nothing a black man can do will decrease the odds of a cop shooting/killing them, why do more interactions not result in shootings? If cops are expressly racist and out to get blacks, and are statistically unlikely to go to jail for doing so, why aren't there thousands more yearly?

If the issue is less overt racism, but more subconscious racism, then being aware of what actions might trigger the subconscious isn't being evil, it's being smart.

In the long term, yes we obviously need to do things to lessen or eliminate racism, but realistically that won't happen overnight as we didn't get to this point overnight. I think that the notion that trying to find intermediate steps to reduce the likelihood of police violence is a good thing, and those steps can be on both the side of cops via better training, body cameras, more civilian oversight, different policing policies, but it can also be done by recognizing that for a variety of really shitty reasons, we as a culture have demonized black and brown people (more so men) and being aware that people might read your actions differently as a result.

I (on a much smaller scale) experience some of that in martial arts as I'm bigger than most people, play an aggressive style and as somebody once put it "I only smile when somebody kicks me in the face", I have had to learn that even though I have trained very hard to be good enough to be scary without making contact, people can misinterpret me as being out to hurt people. As a result, I learned to take some steps to mitigate that. Calling that sentiment evil is really short sighted, especially in a situation where people can live or die.

[bettyellen]

81. Set up a camera as soon as you're pulled over. Stay in its view.

[oberliner]

172. Yes, that sounds like good advice

The ability to film the police so easily (compared to even a decade or two ago) has really transformative potential.

[bettyellen]

192. Didn't help Sandra Bland because they pulled her out of frame.

But it could make some cops think twice.

[bravenak]

68. Be loud and demand change daily

Film all encounters and use a service that posts the video as it is filming. They will murder us, they always have. But we can film our own murder and get it to the public and change the conversation. Let the police know that all that is done in the dark will immediately come to the light. Film any encounter you see, film surrepticiously if need be, film openly if possible. Never allow another cover up. Be prepared to record at all times. People behave better when they know they will be exposed. Expose them frequently until they come to us to make changes in their dealings with us.

[Rex]

82. I hate to put more people at risk, but try not to be alone. Ever.

You're by yourself and you film it, they just take the phone in as 'evidence'. I have a feeling if Mr. Castille was driving by himself, we would have heard a different outcome from the police.

The fact was they STILL treated his girlfriend like a criminal and hauled her off to jail. All for recording his death, so far I've seen no other excuse given. All in front of her 5 year old daughter.

If that doesn't chill a progressive to the bone, nothing will.

[bravenak]

86. I agree.

I worry everytine I drive alone and I only take the main roads with lots of traffic. Just so people can see me not going for my nonexistent gun.

[Rex]

90. It is as if we do certainly live in a police state, for a segment of the population.

The other segment seems shocked when people say negative things about cops, "oh they would never do that." But they would and I got the scars to prove it. "Well you probably did something to deserve it."

Can't win against that kind of stellar logic.

[bravenak]

92. Real shit

Can't win for losing. I said almost this exact same thing down thread. Profile us, cool, we profile them back? We are oppressing them by noticing that they like t kill us especially.

[Rex]

95. That is clarity right there.

They have guns, you have cell phones. And as much as they kick and scream, they will be brought into the eyes of justice. Even if that means social media - a very good type of social justice.

It shouldn't be this way. This is so disturbing on so many levels.

Real shit.

[oberliner]

166. The filming has really been effective in getting the message out to people

That, combined with the ability to spread videos on social media.

[bravenak]

169. It is like when Emmet Till's mom made his funeral open casket

People cannot pretend not to notice when it gets put in their faces daily. It's shameful.

[alcibiades_mystery]

89. Behave within your rights as citizens

Why would black folks need any more advice than that? Everything else is victim blaming and evil. That there is a deep culture of abrogating people's rights within our poorly trained police departments is THEIR problem, and they need to address it.

[oberliner]

168. That's not particularly helpful advice

Regardless of the person's race.

[Squinch]

235. All these dead people behaved within their rights as citizens. It got them killed.

[alcibiades_mystery]

236. That's the fault of the murderers

[Squinch]

237. The murderees are still dead.

[mcar]

55. K&R

I'm just sad this even needs saying.

[allan01]

61. dear friend of mine who fought for his country and served peace corps

who had to dodge bullets to save his life has internalized this nonsense and it has made him ill because of it . (gentle man is black) and we need to a : discuss guns , and b : need to have a dialoge amongst all groups in order to move on and heal. i cant stand fear for fears sake and cant stand stupidity for stupidity sake and i see both together and that is scarry. and the tRump isnt helping hes hindering and abetign.

[malthaussen]

63. Ya think?

It's got to be among the most tone-deaf pieces of sophistry I've ever encountered. Alas, I have a cousin in FLA who will, like clockwork, post on FB advice to always "do what the police say" and avoid any unpleasantness. I don't know how such people -- all of whom doubtless consider themselves champions of law and order -- work it out that disorderly conduct is a capital offense, while voluntary manslaughter is no offense at all.

-- Mal

[Warren DeMontague]

73. doesn't seem like it really worked for Mr. Castile.

[bravenak]

76. No. It really didn't

[Solly Mack]

75. K&R

[hibbing]

79. Excellent n/t

[Starry Messenger]

80. K&R

[Hekate]

83. KnR

[loyalsister]

84. "murder prevention"

is a twisted pairing of words. The only context in which "murder prevention" should be worth considering as necessary is in an active combat war zone. That says a lot about what it might be like to live as a person of color in the US. Evil is right.

[bravenak]

91. We are always in a war zone

But they only call it a war when one of us does some killing. When we did they call it 'justice'. It's a warped world for us and we suffer for every bit of it. We have a target on our backs if cops kill us, the target gets bigger for ALL of us if ONE of us Kills cops.
We get profiled for being black, but if we point out that cops profile us, people act like cops are an oppressed minority being profiled as 'bad' by us rude blacks. Tired of it.

[loyalsister]

98. Ordinary irritation is risky, too

Only white people are permitted to be annoyed by traffic, getting bad customer service, the weather, or anything other daily nuisance that excuse white people when they behave irritability. It is getting more and more dangeous to have a bad day while black.

[craigmatic]

85. People forget that they used to lynch black people back in the day with suits on.

[bravenak]

88. They ain't forgot shit

It's a game of 'pretend' they have no idea why black folks don't trust cops.

[NOLALady]

136. They also lynched them

in their military uniforms.

[IronLionZion]

94. Because the people who say those things

are blissfully aware that they don't look like the people being killed.

Black Americans are literally saying "please stop killing us". And some people are responding "But...."

White people have pointed loaded guns at police officers and lived to do it again.

Being colorblind is a symptom of white privilege.

Especially when there are videos of black people being polite and obeying the law and getting a clip emptied into their chest anyway.

The problem is not manners or being nice to cops.

[bravenak]

104. Yes! Blissfully aware

[Cha]

96. Well done, bravenak!

"Time to reform the system instead of trying to force black people to be perfect or die."

[Blaz]

109. The "Real Problem "

Here is a foundation of why there can be " No Justice No Peace ". Many wealthy "White Americans "
will never be able to understand.

The challenge to justice. The Sophist, teachers-for-hire who preached a creed of subjective morality to the wealthy sons of Athens.

The Sophists did not believe in objective truth, including objective moral truth. They did not think, in other words, that anything was absolutely “right” or “wrong”; instead they viewed all actions as either advantageous or disadvantageous to the person performing them.

If an action was advantageous then they thought you should engage in it, and if it was disadvantageous then they thought that you should refrain.

Taking this belief to its logical conclusion, some of them went so far as to claim that law and morality are nothing but mere convention, and that one ought to try to get away with injustice and illegality whenever such action would be to one’s advantage.

[Blaz]

130. The necessity of a 21st. Century Montgomery Bus Boycott

I
The Necessity of a 21st Century Montgomery Bus Boycott
We are African-American parents of a 33-year-old intelligent black man: Georgia Tech Ph.D in electrical engineering, married to a beautiful black woman, also Ph.D Tech credentialed (Computer Science) with a 2-year old daughter. But our main thought yesterday as they all traveled by car on interstate highways, was to drive the speed limit, be careful and for God's sake don't get stopped. Our fear now is that a cop will see their brown faces first – and ask questions later.
As retirees, we have watched hours of news coverage of last week's horrific events; and we mourn and pray for both sides' families: that is the problem, that there are “sides”. In the aftermath of the murders of innocent civilians and the officers, millions of words of analysis have and will be spoken and written and – we are convinced absolutely, positively nothing will change.
First, we know that thousands of police officers will converge on Dallas from around the country for the funerals of their brothers. There will be no similar presence at the burials of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile; only their families and local communities. Second, civil rights leaders will demand and likely get meetings with Washington politicians regarding (still more) legislation to address this tragic national divide. Compliance will occur except for those worried about a backlash of Willie Horton-style campaign ads that might link them to “Black Lives Matter”. Third, some version of a “Civil Rights Police Community Relations National Commission” will be convened. After months of study, a report, ironically including the millions of words and filled with the statistics we already know, will be issued. The most important content will be that police murders are down and police killing of black and brown citizenry “statistically disproportionate to the population” is up: “Commissionspeak” for it does not happen to white people.
We believe that America, as a nation, refuses to recognize a fundamental truth, i.e. that racism is an essential part of its (a)moral fiber; the result of the history of slavery and its aftermath. Racist ideals – not ideals of fairness and opportunity for all – were part and parcel of the post-slavery legacy and have been passed on to every succeeding generation. Ever since the unrequited Confederate rallying cry, of “the South will rise again,” found its answer in the Ku Klux Klan – in Indiana, not Mississippi – the stain of racism has infected all of our institutions. It had the stamp of legal authority in Congress and the federal judiciary, including the Supreme Court, and all levels of government; and was manifested in our practical daily lives in housing, education, the job market; even in entertainment and the arts.
A solution? The appeal to walls and divisions by the presumptive Republican presidential nominee and the gleeful response by his audiences does not bode well for an honest examination of the national collective “soul”. No, what the good old USA does collectively understand and respond to is its wallet. IF for just one week, not one black or brown person shopped at Wal-Mart – none, zero -- we think the store would notice. If the following week, no one went through Target's doors, it would also take note. Home Depot, Dollar Store, Costco – racism has not made most of us customers – or employees - at more upscale brands. Targeted, rolling, economic action, week in and week out, until some concrete action was taken. The white men (because that's all that's there) in those corporate boardrooms would soon be on the phone to Washington, and something would be done. We are certain that is true because whites do understand the power of the almighty dollar.
Unfortunately, we do not have the leadership in place to command the respect of our population and/or to organize and direct the multibillion dollar impact we have on our economy. In the meantime, these two retirees will continue to hope and dream of a better day for their granddaughter.
Lonnie & Rosalia Parker, Pittsburgh, PA

[msanthrope]

97. Jeebus, are you race nagging again?

To The Jury.....I am directly quoting what has been said to bravenak about her inconvenient truths by a former DUer.....

NO ACTUAL DUERS were harmed in the making of this post.

[bravenak]

102. You just made me laugh super loud

[Uponthegears]

99. ^^^ THIS

[treestar]

100. Agree too many white people

think their experience is universal. Rarely get stopped by cops and when they do, nothing really bad happens.

[Calista241]

105. I was told by my father when i was 15 how to interact with the police.

1. be polite
2. make no sudden moves
3. keep your hands in view of the officer at all times
4. be polite

and I'm white. Everyone here talks about the all black kids getting "the talk" about interacting with the police, but that's no different from my experience back in the 90's.

[bravenak]

107. That has nothing to do with blaming blacks for their own death because they were rude

I watched a black man get murdered by a cop on video. Guess what?!?! He was polite as fuck but still got merked out. So rudeness is not the reason it is just victim blaming. Rudeness is not a death penatly case, it isnt even a fucking crime. Cops need to learn to deal with rudeness as well as a sales associate or else quit that damn job that they obviously are not fit for. Tired of us being killed and getting a response of ' be polite if you want to live'. Polite dont save shit, apparently.

[Skittles]

123. same here

my dad said to keep my hands on top of the steering wheel until instructed otherwise

[The Second Stone]

108. For certain values of evil

I suppose that it is evil as all hell. More evil than many things, less evil than others.

It isn't a very helpful statement, in addition to being as evil as hell. We already know that we are supposed to be polite to police. No shit, Sherlock.

[bravenak]

110. Seriously

Obviously being nice is nice. Doesn't always help. And saying it is just ignorant. Rudeness is not a death penalty crime so being nice is not the issue. It's weird how being nice to cops becomes an issue when cops keep killing us.

[The Second Stone]

111. Hey, I'm agreeing with you completely. Well, except the

exaggeration that this statement is as evil as hell. It's just stupid and ignorant in a way that is in fact evil. It's not as evil as actually murdering someone for driving while black, or even pulling them over for driving while black. But it is evil.

What's really evil is that pedestrians have the right of way when the light turns green, and all pedestrians have a right to march into that crosswalk immediately without looking either, much less both, ways.

Yes, I have a right to be rude to cops, and in fact sometimes am deliberately, despite my best efforts at self-control. That doesn't mean I'm not being stupid and frightening my passengers.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

114. It is analogous to telling women not to drink to avoid rape

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141514836

[bravenak]

115. Exactly

People who do that completely ignore the fact that the rapist is the real criminal. And that sober people get raped

[Iggo]

116. ...is like telling rape victims how not to get raped. (n/t)

[bravenak]

119. Makes me want to vomit

[heaven05]

118. quite succinct, to the point

and true.......

[gollygee]

120. It's ridiculous

The assumption is that black people aren't polite, which is probably not the case in most instances. Black people know their lives are in danger around the police.

And then there's no death penalty in our country without even the benefit of a trial for being rude.

And I have no doubt I could be as rude as I wanted to be without any penalty at all.

I've read about something relevant - it's a way that racism is self-perpetuating. White people get pulled over and are rude and act entitled, like the police shouldn't be pulling them over. Like how dare they question them and waste their time over nothing. And the emotional response by the police is generally that they wonder if they were right to pull them over. They second guess themselves and are less likely to pull over or question white people as often.

But black people are understandably nervous when they're pulled over, and are usually over-the-top polite because they are often the victims of violence or unfair fines when they're pulled over. This hopefully helps them live through the interaction, but in another way ends up working against them - the police come away from it feeling like the motorists knew they did something wrong and that's why they were so polite. They ignore the threat of violence black people face, and the emotional response by the police is that they were so polite because they were hiding something - like if they knew they hadn't done something wrong, they would have been upset for being pulled over. This makes the police feel like they did the right thing pulling them over, and they are likely to pull over or question black people more often. (They're also more likely to call out the K-9 to do a drug search, they're more likely to call for reinforcements, etc.)

So it basically reinforces people's racism, and makes racism self-perpetuating. I read about that like a year ago and I wish I remembered more details.

So black people are in a no-win situation. If they're rude, they get shot. If they're polite, they make the police feel like they did the right thing pulling them over for no good reason.

And this is on top of the whole "blaming the victim" issue.

The whole system is screwed up. We need to change things at a more fundamental level than "politeness." We need to get back to standards and rights. We need to change police officer training, leadership structures, how recruits are chosen, etc. We need to standardize reasons for pulling people over, when people get a ticket vs. a warning, etc. It's a huge issue, and "politeness" is a red herring.

[bravenak]

121. Yep

There really is nothing black can do ourselves to fix this. It's the system. We have to stop going along with the lies we are told about why this happens to us.

[Skittles]

122. I am always nice to armed people

so I can get away from them as quickly as possible

[bravenak]

129. Me too

Be nice if they were not roided up and so quick to pull out their favorite toy

[yuiyoshida]

124. Truth be told...

If you have a racist cop, who thinks he can kill you and get away with it, or has such an agenda no amount of niceness will keep you alive. Its up to society to rid us of cops who belong to the KKK or are generally haters. If a cop has been known for severe beatings, and anger issues, he shouldn't be on the force. I guess I am stating the obvious, but nothing is being done about cleaning up the police forces and getting rid of these people. There needs to be a strict background check on all people coming up and they need to go to an academy, all of them to be trained in proper procedures.

[bravenak]

128. They need to start weeding the bad ones out.

They always cover for them and then they murder a citizen and e see a file filled with complaints.

[yuiyoshida]

131. yup,sis..

[Nye Bevan]

126. Is it "evil" for black parents to warn their children about racist, trigger-happy cops?

Isn't that just part of being a good parent?

[bravenak]

127. We don't tell our kids that it will actually prevent them being killed

Just that it is their best hope. Since the parent are in the same exact danger, how could it possibly be evil? It is evil because it is peopke who know damn well that it is our black skin that endangers us but decides to pretend it is our rudeness that gets us killed. Instead of being honest and saying, watch out, cops kill black folks way more per captita y'all, lets fix police. They instead put the onus on the profiled and targeted to kiss ass and shuch and jive for our lives. Our lives should not depend on our ability to shuck and jive and kiss ass. People only say that to us. Rarely do I hear them tell cops to be polite or else they might die.

[unblock]

133. you can't win with bigots. anti-semites fault the jews for not resisting enough in the holocaust.

jews were polite and calm and still while nazis, for example, casually killed every other jew standing in a line.

people who just don't understand ask me why the people in the camp, who greatly outnumbered the guards, didn't just storm them and take their guns. sure, many would die in the process, but they pretty much knew they were going to die anyway, so why not at least try?

of course there were many aspects of their situation that the people asking such questions don't understand, but that doesn't seem to keep them from passing judgment.

if people are finally treated equally regardless of race 200, 300, or 500 years after the end of slavery, people will be asking blacks why did they put up with it for so long.

damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[bravenak]

134. Pretty much

Good points

[GitRDun]

137. I agree with you on all counts, what I would add is that

as white people we walk the streets here largely as Garnette Cadogan did in Kingston. Hat tip to mailase for article link.

It's hard for many to view the world thru the prism of others.

Keep putting it in front of us...if even one person begins to understand, you've done some good.

[bravenak]

141. I loved that article

Beautiful writing. I felt it

[GitRDun]

151. A friend of mine is a rabbi, I sent the article to her.

She posted it on her fb page. It will get a lot of reads. Lots of good can happen from these discussions.

Whites (including me) often have to struggle to get it, sometimes its hard to put yourself in another's life experience...that's why I like these kinds of OP's...with each new discussion, I understand more and can pass it on.

Keep on dishin'!

[ErikJ]

138. Its mainly the vehicle, not the race

I was stopped on false pretenses all the time in my windowless old cargo van. But I was never stopped in my newer mini-van.
The cops would automaically think I was guilty of something in my old van. They ran the plates every time. And I'm quite white.

[bravenak]

139. Vehicle for you; our color for us

We get pulled over CONSTANTLY in brand new benzes registered to ourselves. Get arrested using our own credit cards. Not the sme thing.

[ErikJ]

142. Get a minivan then. Benzes are suspect too.

Especially with tinted glass.

[bravenak]

144. Black people now have to only drive minivans to get to live. Thanks.

Horrible advice but I'm used to it.

[ErikJ]

148. LOL. Just sayin. Nothing more innocent than a soccer mom van

But I need and use mine all the time for hauling stuff and camping in. I'm a practical freak not a fashion guy.

[bravenak]

154. I guess we should dress a certain way too

Khakis and button ups, and only listen to soft rock in the car. Help us look innocent like white soccer moms. This really is funny.

[gollygee]

155. OMG of course that's the answer!!

You need to be white! That'll solve everything!

(Jury: it's a joke )

[bravenak]

157. Or at least be like Carlton Banks

[gollygee]

143. In trouble either way

Drive a fancy car and you must have stolen it.

Drive a crappy car and you're trouble.

We have set up all of these situations where people of color can not win no matter what. Either way is trouble.

[bravenak]

146. They told me to just get a minivan

So I'm all set now. Black folks will just have to buy minivans if we want to live. Duh. Easy peasy, just get a minivan.

[gollygee]

149. Yes, I'm sure that will solve the problem

/sarcasm

[bravenak]

150. Of course it will. Worked for him and he's white! So he knows...

[gollygee]

140. My husband fixes cars for a hobby

He doesn't get pulled over no matter how crappy of a car he's driving around.

He was pulled over once when driving a sports car, and he deserved to be pulled over, but the police officer just asked to look at the car, chatted with him about cars, and sent him on his way.

[ErikJ]

145. Old windowless vans are suspect. Some call them rape vans.

Just like new tinted Benzes and Mercedes.

[bravenak]

147. This is almost funny

[ErikJ]

152. LOL. Sad but true.

But they are trigger vehicles for cops.

[bravenak]

156. Saddest part is the truth in it

That has to end. We gotta stop letting the system for e us into certain cars, clothes, or habits otherwise we are suspect. Over that shit, it's been going on too long. I bet I can find a video or situation where an unarmed black man got murdered by cops in a minivan. A mini bike. A powewheel. Makes no difference. Cops need better training and we need to weed out the ones who are too jumpy or scared to act like our lives matter.

[gollygee]

162. .

http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/06/family-in-minivan-was-forced-to-flee-for-their-lives/

[bravenak]

163. I forgot about that one

There have been so damn many....

[gollygee]

165. Yes.

[zz-la]

204. Actually no that is bad analogy

Many black people have been arrested for driving their own car, that was in fact registered in their name and purchased legally, if the vehicle was deemed to nice to be driven by a black person. There are even stories of black people in very nice affluent neighborhoods getting arrested because they entered their own home "in the wrong manner." Basically a white neighbor got suspicious and felt they did not belong in that house and the police basically believed the same. A black person could literally be sitting motionless, in the corner of a room, doing nothing, and a police officer would enter the room and find something wrong, even if four white people were literally brawling in the middle of the room. I have seen this shit happen. It is fucked up.

[ErikJ]

230. Well we were talking about pull-overs by cops.

What do u think when u see a gleaming Benze or Beamer with solid tinted windows especially if the rap base is blaring? If I did that I know I would be pulled over every week. Dead giveaway.

[jack_krass]

153. Being courteous, calm, and docile when pulled over by police

Is advise that every parent should give to their children, black or white. I have drilled this into my children's heads.

Life is a game of odds, and behaving in this way gives you the best chance of not being a victim of police violence .

On the other hand, telling your child to be argumentative, "loud", or to "stand up for your rights" increases the chance of them getting hurt or killed, and that chance is of course even higher if your child is black or Hispanic.

[bravenak]

159. Did not work for Philando Castlie now did it?

Might be that we need to train our cops to NOT KILL PEOPLE.

[jack_krass]

161. Nothing in life is absolute. Best to play the odds, as to your other point,

I don't think training is working, and more drastic action is needed:

Start with drug testing and immediate dismissal on positive for steroids or any sort of stimulants.

Fire anyone with record domestic violence or child abuse.

Recruit more people to police communities they live in.

[bravenak]

167. You are right

They need to police each other too. Arrest their partners immediately if they assault a civilian. End that thin blue line shit. It's as stupid as that 'stop snitchin'' shit.

[jack_krass]

175. Oh, and maybe most importantly: stop making it illegal to posses certain substances

Lots here may disagree, or think it detracts, but consider how much power we've handed over to police and prosecutors to "keep us safe from drugs". What has this gotten us?

More lives ruined by prison*, more income lost, more property confiscated, more justification for police to stop, search and harass anyone they feel like, more ways to demonize those who choose non government approved mood altering substances, and those who are addicted.

End this abomitable "drug war".

*Not intended to criticize Hillary Rodham Clinton.

[k8conant]

160. I totally agree.

I got totally disgusted today when on Meet the Press New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton went on and on about there being so many good cops and Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson barely mentioned that he had "had the talk" with his sons and wouldn't talk about it anymore.

[bravenak]

170. Everytime this kinda stuff happens they act like police are the minority group that gets oppressed

It trips me out. They never have the talks with fellow cops about how great and good most black folks are. Never. But they want the same empathy and sympathy they deny us every time.

[sheshe2]

174. K&R

Bull's-eye.

[baldguy]

177. Because police officers should always be treated as if they're unpredicatble, dangerous animals.

Isn't that what we want in a civilized society?

sad

[gollygee]

190. You don't see the irony in this post? Nt

[baldguy]

196. Yes, I do.

On several levels.

[Surya Gayatri]

178. When white people advise African American people to be "polite" towards cops, for me

it evokes the image of the obsequious field hand standing in front of the overseer, doffing his cap and muttering "Yass, massah"...

[Bohunk68]

180. Just one of the reasons why I enjoy reading your posts.

You bring it on home and present the situation in a way that cannot be misunderstood. When I get done reading, my head is bobbing like one of those dolls.

[Orrex]

183. I imagine that what they're really saying is "placate the cops' racism"

Clearly the threshold for "justifiable" homicide-by-cop is different from case to case.

For example, in a case the cops are detaining a black person, the threshold is "is black."

[marble falls]

185. Its like being asked to tip the doorman at the ovens in Auschwitz.

[ismnotwasm]

186. K&R

[Dr Rise]

189. I like the "rape" analogy ...

spot on

[ehrnst]

191. Like telling women "not to turn a rapist on." (nt)

[wryter2000]

193. Tamir Rice wasn't being rude.

The problem isn't rudeness. It's racism.

[bravenak]

198. Absolutely

[lark]

194. Excellent point!

Let me repeat -

Don't murder black folks!
Stop for one second and think, this is a person, someone's child, friend, lover, wife/husband.

[bravenak]

200. God yes! No murder!!

That should be easy to do. I have gone my whole life without murdering one person. Cant be too hard.

[geardaddy]

195. Agreed.

SMH

[AnnieBW]

197. It's the equivalent of telling women to just give in to rapists

It'll make the inevitable easier to bear.

[bravenak]

199. I hate that shit

Just let them rape us and don't fight back. like we are just furniture