Bill Russell on keeping his hands up during a traffic stop.

[bigtree]

profloumoore ?@loumoore12 Jul 8
Bill Russell on keeping his hands up during a traffic stop.

[still_one]

1. Thanks for this. Kick and Rec!!!!!!!!!

[uawchild]

2. Bill f-ing Russell rocks

Pure genius by Bill and what a sad indictment of systemic racism in our country.

[uponit7771]

3. +1

[CincyDem]

4. Published in October 1980. 19 f'ing 80. How much longer this going to go on ? n/t

[HipChick]

7. Being going on for much longer than that..

Cellphones with cameras, and the internet have given voice to what has been claimed for decades..

[CincyDem]

19. Oh yeah - I get that.

My first memory of DWB was in HS in the 70s on the south side of Chicago. I'm sure the reality is no different today vs. 50 years ago but the visibility has sure changed. I hope social media bends that arc of history faster in the future than we've seen in the past.

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. Think of the thousands who have had their lives cut short in this manner

Or their lives turned upside down.

We can even put aside the probably millions of similar indignities - the clear performance of one's second class citizenship - and think only of the gross major physical injuries. And nothing has changed.

[forest444]

21. Very timely, considering that was the year a riot broke out in Miami over the very same problem.

You might recall the Arthur McDuffie murder in December 1979 - in circumstances very similar to the one Bill Russell described - and the acquittal of the four officers involved the following May.

If McDuffie had been one of the cocaine cowboys, he would have no doubt had no problem$.

[Jopin Klobe]

53. Been going on (here in North America) since 1526 or so ...

... so, I'm guessing, a little while longer ...

... unless we vote out the violent, slovenly, paid-for, ignorant rubes ...

[Cooley Hurd]

5. K&R!! It shows how long this has been going on!

How long, how long must we sing this song????

[PatSeg]

6. Big K&R

[GoneOffShore]

8. "Matched the description"

Bill Russell nailed it then. And it still holds today.

[catbyte]

75. Yup. Description: "Black male, aged 18-80."

We should all be ashamed that this continues to happen.

[sheshe2]

9. DU Rec.

[ancianita]

10. K & R for remembering how fucking long this has gone on! Thank you!

[Lamonte]

11. Racism and Bill Russell

When Bill Russell left Boston for Seattle and was walking somewhere in Seattle a car pulled along side him and offered him a ride. It Was a pleasant after being in Boston a very racist city.

[FuzzyRabbit]

20. Bill Russell's daughter

while they were living on Mercer Island, was stopped by the Mercer Island police many times for no reason as she was driving home from Seattle. After living there for several years they were quite well known, but the police hassled them all the time anyway.

[BumRushDaShow]

12. Doesn't matter what you do for a living or how much you make.

"Economics" is irrelevant when folks see you as nothing but an n-word and of course, n-words don't have no money. And if they do, they must have stolen it, and if they didn't steal it, then they didn't deserve it because... Affirmative Action™ or something.

I shouldn't need to do this but to avoid the inevitable attack by those who reach out and try to make the shoe fit so they can wear it, then take offense by complaining that it is not theirs, I will just leave this here -->

[tblue37]

36. Actor Wendell Pierce describes how a cop almost shot him as he drove home

from a family funeral.

He was dressed in a suit, driving a nice car, windows rolled up and air conditioner on because it was a hot day in the South.

He sat with his hands clearly visible on the steering wheel waiting for the cop to come to his window.

When the cop hadn't showed up after a while, Pierce glanced in his rearview mirror, only to see the cop in a shooting stance with his gun drawn and his mouth moving furiously, obviously cursing and ready to shoot because Pierce had not heard him with his windows rolled up. (Apparently the cop wanted him to exit his car and freaked out when Pierce didn't obey the order because he couldn't hear it with the windows up.)

Pierce begins speaking at 49 seconds if you don't want to watch the whole 2:30 minutes.

Oh, and BTW, he had TWO TODDLERS in the back seat of his car at the time!

<iframe width="728" height="410" src="

" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[BumRushDaShow]

52. That's just sad.

I used to live next door to an older professional black couple (they would be in the 100s now) who were originally from the south (Tennessee) and the man loved cars and always had a new one every 3 years. I remember he had a Chrysler LeBaron Limited back in the early 80s that he would drive when they did their yearly trek down south. However as he told my mother, he always kept a chauffeur's cap in his glove compartment to plop on his head for those inevitable pull-overs by the cops for DWB in a car like that (which god forbid, was not even something like a Mercedes (like my black neighbors on the other side had) or other high-end "foreign" car.

And for someone like Wendell, with all the movies he's been in... I liked him in "Get on the Bus".

[mountain grammy]

90. I remember this episode..

chilling.

[napkinz]

13. K&R

[oberliner]

15. Police: NBA legend Bill Russell arrested with gun at airport (2013)

NBA legend Bill Russell was arrested this week for allegedly bringing a loaded gun to Sea-Tac International Airport in Seattle, police said.

Russell, 79, was arrested Wednesday and issued a state citation for having a weapon in a prohibited area of the airport, said Perry Cooper, a Port of Seattle Police Department spokesman.

Russell was issued a citation and released. He had a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson handgun in a forbidden area of the airport, said Lisette Garcia, a Transportation Security Administration spokeswoman.

The gun was found during a screening of carry-on bags at a checkpoint, the TSA said.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/19/us/bill-russell-gun-airport/

[uawchild]

16. and of course the irrelevant post must follow... n/t

[oberliner]

28. The OP is about an incident involving Bill Russell and law enforcement

My post is about a recent incident also involving Bill Russell and law enforcement.

[uawchild]

42. very very weak, Obie

You know what you did and you know better. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[oberliner]

58. You have no idea what you are talking about

Maybe you can reflect on what causes you to jump to unfounded conclusions and assumptions.

[greiner3]

85. I reflect this way

[uhnope]

87. that is their job

[bigtree]

18. your point?

...relating to traffic stops; race relations; discrimination?

Anything remotely related to the point of the op? Wouldn't want to leave you hanging here looking like you were just trying to discredit Russell with this wholly unrelated incident.

[oberliner]

27. Your OP is about Bill Russell

You posted something about an incident that occurred with him and law enforcement in the 1980s. My response is about an incident that occurred with him and law enforcement 3 years ago.

[bigtree]

34. that's nonsense

...and I think you know it.

You post has zero to do with DWB, which is the subject of the op. Your post is entirely about an incident at an airport. It says nothing about his interaction with police other than the arrest and provides zero insight into the issue of police stops and race.

[oberliner]

37. No it's not

How does one description of an interaction with law enforcement (from the 1980s) provide insight while another description of an interaction with law enforcement (from 2013) provide "zero insight"? Both involving the same person.

That makes absolutely no sense.

[bigtree]

41. tell us the 'insight' you gleaned about traffic stops and race

....from an incident at the airport.

You've missed the point of the op by a mile. It's not about 'interactions' with police in general, it's related to the rash of deadly traffic stops.

Moreover, your post has zero about any interaction other than mention of the arrest.

I don't actually believe you're that obtuse to confuse the two. I think you're just making this ridiculous point to cover for the smear you intended.

[oberliner]

59. OK

Sometimes law enforcement can be racist, other times they aren't. In 2013, perhaps things are better than the were in 1980 in that respect.

If you read the CNN article, you will get more information about what the interaction was like. There was also follow up from Russell stating that he was treated reasonably by the officers, and he apologized for his mistake in terms of the gun.

[BumRushDaShow]

60. Federal police vs the local yokels

TSA agents don't go on hunts for someone DWB on the roads in a car.

[oberliner]

63. Good point

I hadn't thought of that distinction.

[Joe Chi Minh]

89. Yup. It might just as well have been about one of the matches he played in !

Last edited Mon Jul 11, 2016, 04:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Or what he said to his grandma, before leaving her place on such and such a date. The potential permutations are endless. Maybe just something mentioning the word, 'police'. Or - for crying out loud - a cardiac 'arrest' !

You remind me of a kid in our class. We were being taught about the potato blight in Ireland by our history teacher, Mr Leonard - we nicknamed Old Ben, or Neb Dranoel, according to how charitably disposed we were - who was an incredibly strict disciplinarian. If you fiddled with a ruler he'd snarl at you. Most teachers love you to ask questions, He didn't.

Piccard put up his hand. Old Ben turned to him and snarled : 'What is it, Piccard ?' Piccard : 'Please, Sir, we had blight in our apple tree.' Well, the normal tension in his classes meant we doubled up, and, funnily enough, so did he - it was such an outrageously childish, utterly irrelevant nugget of information ! I wish you'd been in our class, Oberliner. Only you'd have been serious. Adding, no doubt, still further to the humour.

Sugar Ray Dranoel doesn't sound right, does it ? But then a clearer case of lese-majeste would be difficult to imagine.

[Humanist_Activist]

23. You seem to be pushing a narrative, what is that narrative? n/t

[oberliner]

29. No narrative is being pushed

People are free to draw their own conclusions.

[bigtree]

35. since it's completely unrelated to the issue of police stops and race

...the conclusion is that it's not only irrelevant, but questionable.

[oberliner]

39. Why is one incident with law enforcement relevant and another (more recent one) irrelevant?

That makes no sense.

Both incidents are about the exact same person and his interactions with law enforcement.

One would think the more recent one would be more relevant to the way things are now.

[uponit7771]

78. because one was justified the other the USUAL racial profiling. Your position here intimates that th

... the usual racial profiling does NOT happen despite empirical data on the matter.

[oberliner]

81. Of course it happens

But there are also some/most members of law enforcement who are honorable people who do they job fairly.

[uponit7771]

86. I think we agree on that, its the .0001% who are not (seeing humans aren't perfect) that are not

... being held accountable when there's some obvious crap that goes wrong.

In this case the police are allowed to profile someone who's a basketball start and has no need to rob anyone, in the case of the Air Station the person wasn't profiled due to the randomness of the search.

also

When video or other evidence shows obvious miscounts of a story from a LEO or when they don't even write down reports (as what happened in Ferguson) then there should be low fruit steps in implementing consequences.

When that doesn't happen that's what tears the trust asunder

I do think federal investigations when things go wrong will go a long way of taking the onus off police of investigating themselves

[oberliner]

57. How wonderful for you

Welcome to DU.

[marmar]

25. The point being?

[oberliner]

31. Sometimes law enforcement behaves properly?

Even with respect to an African-American celebrity?

[marmar]

44. The incident in Russell's book doesn't sound like one of those times

[oberliner]

56. But that was over 30 years ago

I would argue that perhaps things are better today, even though, obviously, there are still very serious problems.

I think now we have more of an awareness of those issues and willingness to address them.

[BumRushDaShow]

61. "I would argue that perhaps things are better today"

That is Onion-worthy!

[oberliner]

62. You think things are worse today than 30 years ago?

Were you alive then?

[BumRushDaShow]

64. Were you?

I am 54 years old. What is happening is that the rest of the country - notably in non-urban areas - are seeing first hand thanks to "social media" what has been happening as the new Jim Crow.

As blacks and other POC are slowly "allowed to" move to previously all-white suburbs, the instances of confrontation are increasing. And it's being live-streamed.

[oberliner]

65. Yes, indeed

I think you've just made my point.

"Social media" lets us know about things that we never knew about back then.

[BumRushDaShow]

66. So because it wasn't on "social media"

it didn't exist? That's what you are arguing? Really?

News flash - Your post is an example of why the problem exists and will continue to exist for the next century.

There is a phenomena going on that has changed the dynamic of interactions with LOE. And shortly, it will escalate with the opposite phenomena also going on.

[oberliner]

67. "Your post is an example of why the problem exists and will continue to exist for the next century."

What a bizarre thing to write. I am assuming you must have misread the post.

I am saying the issue of racist cops targeting people of color was a massive problem in the 1980s, but there was less awareness of it than there is today due to the lack of social media and cell phone videos.

Is that not self-evident?

[BumRushDaShow]

70. I'm afraid given your other responses in this thread

that your intent, in addition to your outright statement about things "being better" 30 years later, was to suggest that because of social media, things are "better", and they are NOT.

With over a decade of photos and videos shot of egregious acts (including on youtube, which has been around about 10 years), where have things "improved"?

You may have some police departments finally trying to institute more "community policing" - something that was actually put in place in various municipalities 20+ years ago under Clinton after the Rodney King riots (e.g., here in Philly, they started bike patrols to get the cops out of their cars and back on the beat). But even the "embarrassment" of being exposed hasn't been enough to change many departments - particularly when the cops are acquitted time and time again in very public fashion.

Even with cops being given dash cams and body cams that film some or all of their actions, many don't seem to give a damn what they do because why? The courts won't hold them accountable due to the level and type of evidence needed to show "intent" for criminal cases, where even something lesser like manslaughter, gets thrown out.

[oberliner]

83. You have no idea what you are talking about

And have completely misconstrued very reasonable points that are not even remotely related to the bizarre assumptions you are making about an intent that does not exist.

Things are not better because of social media.

Awareness is greater because of social media.

Things were awful in the 1980s - but fewer people were aware.

This is not even a remotely controversial statement.

[BumRushDaShow]

88. That was NOT your original assertion

Post #44 remarked -

The incident in Russell's book doesn't sound like one of those times

which was in response to your Post #31 that proffers that your article about a recent incident between Russell and federal police at an airport purportedly shows "improvement" in relations (where I had argued in a separate subthread that the TSA is not your local LEO - the folks that most POC might have contact with unless they are traveling on a plane).

And in reply to #44 you wrote -

But that was over 30 years ago

I would argue that perhaps things are better today, even though, obviously, there are still very serious problems.

And my assertion continues to say (with various posts and links) that no, things are NOT better because the incidents continue - notably the fact that we have protests going on right now due to POC continuing to be shot down in the street. The fact that more outside of the POC community are expressing outrage is genuinely heartening - but there have ALWAYS been folks outside of our community who have done all they could to help (even going back to the white abolitionists and Quakers and others working the Underground Railroad), so it's not really new and definitely, the more the merrier to help bring an end to this madness.

The disparate treatment - for example, someone who looks like this, who was NOT automatically shot while threateningly waving a gun, while this guy is treated with kid gloves after slaughtering 9 black parishioners. Yet those not looking like him, with no weapon except an "imagined" one, get executed, sometimes in a hail of 137 bullets. And in yet another provocative move, this guy comes sauntering into the crowd by the Alton Sterling memorial while packing heat, yet he is not automatically shot down by police.

All of these examples are just a tiny fraction of what has NOT changed.

This type of disparate treatment illustrates how the 1857 "Dred Scott" decision continues to impact the lives of POC despite its (purported) later overruling. Particularly since the other tragedy that prompted the current protests involved a man who DID have a legal permit, yet was executed before his girlfriend's eyes, and now the NRA's silence on that is apparently causing all sorts of "internal discord".

I.e., that decision in Dred Scott said in part -

<...>

4. [font color="red"]A free negro of the African race[/font], whose ancestors were brought to this country and sold as slaves, [font color="red"]is not a "citizen" within the meaning of the Constitution of the United States.[/font]

5. When the Constitution was adopted, they were not regarded in any of the States as members of the community which constituted the State, and were not numbered among its "people or citizens." [font color="red"]Consequently, the special rights and immunities guarantied to citizens do not apply to them[/font]. And not being "citizens" within the meaning of the Constitution, they are not entitled to sue in that character in a court of the United States, and the Circuit Court has not jurisdiction in such a suit.

6. The only two clauses in the Constitution which point to this race treat them as persons whom it was morally lawfully to deal in as articles of property and to hold as slaves.

7. [font color="red"]Since the adoption of the Constitution of the United States, no State can by any subsequent law[/font] make a foreigner or any other description of persons citizens of [p394] the United States, nor [font color="red"]entitle them to the rights and privileges secured to citizens by that instrument[/font].

8. A State, by its laws passed since the adoption of the Constitution, may put a foreigner or any other description of persons upon a footing with its own citizens as to all the rights and privileges enjoyed by them within its dominion and by its laws. But that will not make him a citizen of the United States, nor entitle him to sue in its courts, nor to any of the privileges and immunities of a citizen in another State.

9. [font color="red"]The change in public opinion and feeling in relation to the African race which has taken place since the adoption of the Constitution cannot change its construction and meaning, and it must be construed and administered now according to its true meaning and intention when it was formed and adopted.[/font]

<...>

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/60/393

Meaning that none of the Amendments are to apply to POC and you see day after day after day, how that has come to pass - whether it's the right to legally own a gun or try to vote or even peaceably assemble to petition for regress from the government (without being tear-gassed or shot at with rubber bullets).

There are conservative members of our current Supreme court who are "originalists" (like the traitor Thomas and his now-deceased mouthpiece Scalia) who would most likely agree with the above.

[uponit7771]

76. Red Herring, the point here being there's very little recourse when they don't and usually have

.... no cause to stop and search.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

26. So I guess your point is "Just because he's with the NBA that doesn't mean..."

What?

That he should expect to be treated any better than any other black guy?

[oberliner]

32. Not sure how you would come to that conclusion

Says something maybe about your own POV.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. I'm fed up with the denial.

[oberliner]

40. There is no denial

One can acknowledge the serious problems that exist today with law enforcement with regard to race, while at the same time acknowledging that the situation is much better today than it was in the 1970s and 1980s.

[uawchild]

45. And you base this conclusion on what?

The number of minorities that are being jailed? The prison population has increased DRASTICALLY since the 1970's and 1980's and minorities are incarcerated at a disproportionally high rate.



https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp

[oberliner]

48. The percentage of minority police officers in U.S. agencies almost doubled between 1987 and 2013

That is a major change.

[BumRushDaShow]

69. Yet the fact that those black cops

are being shot and/or killed by their brethern white cops, more and more is because -

They fit the description.

And continue to fit the desciption.

Over and over.

They don't care what rank either when it comes to profiling and harassing.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

51. Your post didn't come off that way.

[oberliner]

55. My post was literally just a news article

Posted without comment.

It seemed related to the OP which was about Bill Russell and his experiences dealing with law enforcement over the years.

[PatrickforO]

17. That was great.

[pansypoo53219]

22. everytime i see a cheerful little black boy. i wanna give him a hug for what is gonna change for him

as he ages. i do not get many chances anymore to be around them as much. now i am gonna say stay safe. i miss integration that i had in school.

[malthaussen]

24. Mr Russell was fortunate there were witnesses.

Being a 7-foot and very noticeable celebrity didn't hurt, either. Which in no way takes away from what he's saying here: he was able to get away with what he did not because he was innocent of wrongdoing, or stopped without reason, but because it would have been too hard to justify shooting him in the circumstances. Which is one hell of an indictment of the police in this instance.

-- Mal

[tblue37]

30. K&R. nt

[rockfordfile]

33. Seems kind of scary for any person.

It seems that some of the Police have always had racist problems. I think that they have hired KKK/Republican types that cause these harassment and murders. So you got some layers of racism in some Police. I think another issue is the training or seems lack of.

[tblue37]

46. LEO has been deliberately infiltrated by white supremacists:

http://thegrio.com/2015/05/12/fbi-white-supremacists-law-enforcement/

"FBI's warning of white supremacists infiltrating law enforcement nearly forgotten"

From The Daily Kos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/5/21/1384553/-2006-FBI-Report-on-White-Infiltration-of-Law-Enforcement-You-Will-Be-Assimilated

2006 FBI Report on White Supremacist Infiltration of Law Enforcement: You Will Be Assimilated

SNIP

One positively chilling aspect of this 2006 FBI report is the description of what white supremacists call "ghost skins."

Since coming to law enforcement attention in late 2004, the term "ghost skins" has gained currency among white supremacists to describe those who avoid overt displays of their beliefs to blend into society and covertly advance white supremacist causes.

I don't know who the white supremacists are in the police departments, DA offices, and judge's chambers of this country. And neither do you.

They have assimilated.

[oberliner]

47. One quarter of all police officers are people of color

That's over 100,000.

[tblue37]

50. That doesn't mean that there are not a lot of good ol' boy cops,

sheriffs, deputies, prosecutors, and judges who are white supremacists. In fact, a black police union in Missouri just put out a report about racism and other forms of corruption, bias, and bad behavior in PDs that are encouraged at the highest level.

[oberliner]

54. True - but perhaps things are getting better

Greater diversity is definitely a good thing.

[BumRushDaShow]

71. Philadelphia's Guardian Civic League

(the official organization of black LOEs) would disagree.

Like at the macro level, at the micro level of PDs, the more diverse they became, the more the tensions of the few bad apples (and their "silent supporters&quot were stoked, and removing those bad apples required herculean efforts if it happened at all.

[oberliner]

73. That is depressing

But thanks for sharing the info.

[uponit7771]

77. Another Red Herring, it's not the LEOs who are white are going to openly tell the PoC LEOs that they

... with a supremacist group.

[oberliner]

82. Not at all

It's a sign of a step in the right direction. Making the police force more diverse is critical.

[elleng]

49. a 'routine mistake.'

LOVE Bill Russell!

[ProudProgressiveNow]

68. K&R nt

[FighttheFuture]

72. He's lucky he wasn't shot for .... something. They would figure it out later.

[calimary]

74. I was still working at the time "L.A. Law" was on. I interviewed Blair Underwood.

He talked about getting pulled over for the same offense, what we now know as "driving while black."

At the time, he was the newest castmember to join the regulars on that big hit show, and it rocketed him up into immediate A-list star status, face on the covers of magazines, major profiles on "Entertainment Tonight" and "TV Guide," fan clubs popping up everywhere, and all kinds of national and even world-wide attention.

And he STILL got pulled over one evening - because he, too, was a black guy driving an expensive car.

Just stunning.

[Blue_Tires]

80. epic kick

[kwassa]

84. I saw Forest Whittaker on a talk show ....

as I recall, he had just been Oscar nominated for his performance as Idi Amin in "The Last King of Scotland"

his picture was everywhere, yet he had been pulled over for driving while black. He was furious.

[mountain grammy]

91. The reason southerners made it illegal for slaves to learn to read and write,

is on this page. I read Bill Russell's book in the 80's. Loved it. Love Bill Russell.

[napkinz]

92. kick