Don't Put Anti-Semitism Next to "Islamophobia"

[ericson00]

While I absolutely abhor the hate crimes that have recently occurred against individual Muslims, I think there is a big danger in linking the general criticism some have of the religion of Islam to anti-Semitism.

Anti-Semitism is based solely on conspiracy theory, racialist theory, as ideas that Jews behind the scenes control the world, the financial system, and the media with a cabal, while starting wars or "manipulating" public opinion with the "Holocaust Industry," or they're ruining the races. Before that, it was based on the deicide idea, something, which unlike jihad acts, could never be proven to have happened.

Indeed some of the ideas from the fringes, that one cannot truly convert from Islam, and the few that indeed mainly hold skin color against many Muslims are crazy and bigoted, the principled criticism of Islamic doctrine and Islamic societies, given the recent wave of terror attacks happening around the globe in Islam's name, the tiny percentage of Muslim-majority countries that are ranked "free" by Freedom House, or ranked well by ILGA, is based in fact, not conspiracy theory. As is the idea that we should be more vigilant about refugees and immigrants from the Middle East. That doesn't at all mean blanket ban anyone, but not let what happened in Cologne and Sweden happen here, etc.

Additionally, putting anti-Semitism and "Islamophobia," an ill-conceived term, (anti-Muslim sentiment is a better fit) also belittles the history of the Jews, who never had dozens of countries with them as a cultural majority and were subject to pogroms and the Holocaust (which is capitalized must only be used for the events of 1941-1945) at the hands of the majority members of nations.
For 1400 years, there have been many Muslim majority nations and societies. There have been many several Islamic states, Arab states (which are majority Muslim).

I mention this because the Democratic platform draft puts these two ideas in the same sentence, and for months, I've seen people compare the Jews of the MS St. Louis to the Syrian refugees. I find it personally insulting, as if one is saying that the accusations against the Jews have the same merit as the allegations of Islamic extremism.

We can combat anti-Muslim acts, like what has happened in recent weeks and months, without belittling history or losing sight of things. It also means that solutions are more tenable; the more Muslim so-called apostates and Islamic liberals who come out can help quell it, since the crazed Muslim haters are a small group. Anti-Semitism is pure CT, and needs to be seen as such forever.

[uppityperson]

1. I do not understand, and would like to. If you would be so kind as to clarify for me, thank you

I do not see how speaking out against bigotry toward one group belittles the bigotry toward another group. I will continue to speak out against all sorts of bigotry, and am confused by what you write. Thank you for reading and hopefully replying as I am very serious here, as are you, and I'd like to make sure I understand.

[ericson00]

4. just as AA's don't think the common conservative line of

"why don't blacks just rise up like the Italians, Irish immigrants" is apt because of historical context, there are people who don't like anti-Muslim sentiment being compared to anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is 100% conspiracy theory; while the violent anti-Muslim acts and hysteria from some on the right isn't much better, critics of Islam, like Sam Harris and Bill Maher are not "racists" or "bigots" and should not be compared to anti-Semite scum.

[uppityperson]

5. I think you are saying they they one group has been treated horrifically historically, and

even though there is bigotry against other groups now, recognize the historical treatments. "why don't blacks just rise up like the Italians, Irish immigrants" doesn't work because the Italians, Irish immigrants while certainly experiencing too much bigotry were not enslaved?

I don't know what Bill Maher or Sam Harris have said, don't know them. However, fearing or hating everyone of a religion based on the actions or perceptions of a few is wrong.

Do you mean that jewish people were, are, discriminated against not because of the actions of a few but because of false allegations while the anti-Muslim discrimination is because of the actions of a few?

[mwrguy]

2. Don't make light of the persecution of Muslims

[ericson00]

3. I never made light of it at all;

but just as African Americans aren't too thrilled with "why don't AA's just take discrimination like the Italians, the Irish, etc.," some people don't think anti-Semitism, an idea based in CT, ought to be compared with anti-Muslim sentiment.

[jberryhill]

6. White supremacists hate both just as much

I'd imagine from the neo Nazi perspective, the Arab-Israeli conflict is pretty much a win-win. It's like the right wing Christians who "support Israel" because the existence of Israel is a pre-requisite to the final conflict which only 144,000 Jews will survive.

[LeftishBrit]

7. Well, bigotry is bigotry...

And much 'Islamophobia' is just a currently common form of prejudice against foreigners or non-white people. Note how Trump speaks in very similar terms about Muslims and Mexicans.

I suppose one could make the argument that anti-Semitism differs from Islamophobia in that the former explicitly attacks all of Jewish ancestry, not just those of the Jewish religion. But in practice this often happens with Islamophobia too: look at the way that President Obama keeps being accused of being a 'secret Muslim'.

Being specifically against extremist Islamic groups is not Islamophobic: indeed, ISIS must be one of the most Islamophobic groups in their actions with regard to the vast majority of Muslims. Most of their victims are Muslims whom they regard as of the wrong sort.

But being against refugees and immigrants because they are Muslims is
Islamophobic, and is often just an excuse for being against all
refugees and immigrants. And yes, that does have a lot in common with the rejection and mistreatment of Jewish refugees in the past. Let's note that this too was not always explicitly based on pure anti-Semitism; one reason or excuse often given during WW2 was that German Jewish refugees were 'enemy aliens'. But it was still anti-Semitic, and often fatally so, in its effects.

[ericson00]

8. um the term "Islamophobia" is only used in reference to

Muslims, and is an inaccurate term; even the guy, Trevor Philips, who coined it admitted it. While yes, there are anti-Muslim hysterics who assume all Muslims are Islamists, or that Obama is a secret Muslim in cahoots with the Muslim Brotherhood, problem is that the term "Islamophobia" is too often used to silence critics of political Islam, aka Islamism, as Manuel Valls, not some National Front pol, has pointed out.

Racism and Xenophobia are the terms for general dislike of non-whites and immigrants.

Trump is wrong about Mexicans. Mexican immigrants ought not to be conflated with the Middle East, in the mind of rational people. There is no risk of terrorist jihad from Mexican immigrants.

There are very troubling amounts of illiberal sentiment among the populations of that part of the world that is much greater in intensity (given widespread draconian Islam-inspired criminal codes) and than in others, and while yea you could point out that many Americans have illiberal views, isn't it good we can be choosy now about who we let in who isn't currently a citizen? Also, there are few, if any, voices calling for the death penalty for LGBT. Shouldn't we be careful about risking American domestic progress that has been hard fought and be careful about risking it for people who aren't being targeted for genocide (there is no campaign to oppress and kill all Syrian Arab Muslims, while there is to do so to Yazidis, as there were against the Jews in Europe, the Tutsis, etc.)

I'm absolutely against blanket banning all Muslims from entry; and against banning all Muslim immigration; however, I am for being careful about who we let in from certain areas of the world. Sadly, the Greater Middle East is one of those areas.

Quite frankly, I am personally scared of this scenario, which has been going on for years. I could be in physical danger. The anti-Semitism widespread among Muslims is scary as hell. If they want to carry their precious Palestine with them, that's THEIR effin problem.

I think there's something to the fact that most Americans know that Muslim Americans are mainly loyal citizens, should not be forced to have special IDs, but people are divided about immigration from that part of the world.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. You shouldn't link the Syrian refugees to Islamic extremism

They are mainly fleeing the bombing by President Assad, who is not an Islamic extremist, and the refugees are not Islamic extremists. They are people looking for somewhere safe; it's no insult to previous refugees to compare them, even if those previous refugees were fleeing bigotry and genocide rather than a civil war between an authoritarian dictatorship and various opposition groups, just some of whom are Islamist.. If Islamist extremists get compared with anything in the previous situation, it's Hitler, since they are also causing some of the havoc in Syria from which people are fleeing.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. More from the OP on Syrian refugees

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027798219

Yuck....

[ericson00]

16. so I shouldn't be afraid for the future of American Jews, given that?

and those are serious articles and sites/cites, not Breitbart, etc.

At some point, the citizenry of one's own country (including American Jewry) comes before Syrian Arab refugees, who have many countries in the vicinity in which they'd be a better social and cultural fit.

[uppityperson]

20. You oppose Syrian refugees "because of actual threats of terrorist violence and hatred"?

People fleeing terrorism are terrorists?

After reading more responses, I disagree. Fanning fears of refugees is bigotry, based in non-reality, on the actions of a very few that share a characteristic , in this case religion.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Yes, I agree that fanning fears of refugees is bigotry...

Though they don't oppose all Syrian refugees, just the ones who are Muslim. They posted that in the thread I linked to. I detest attempts to play off one type of bigotry at the expense of another in the hope of minimising the very real bigotry aimed at one group. Bigotry against Jews and Muslims is nasty shit. Those who insist on putting quotation marks around the term Islamophobia and pretending it's not a real thing are every bit as annoying as those who claim that the term anti-semitism doesn't mean bigotry against Jews, but against Arabs as well...

[uppityperson]

24. Yup. I'm still hoping to get you your part of the world in a couple yrs

[Violet_Crumble]

10. They're both forms of bigotry and only those who want to minimise one have a problem...

And unless yr a Muslim, what qualifies you to decide what is and isn't bigoted against Muslims? You claim anti-Muslim bigots are only a small group, but those who want to stop all Syrian refugees being given asylum with the possible exception of non-Muslims are most definitely bigoted and their numbers are large....

[ck4829]

12. If we're going to argue against the term itself, wasn't anti-semitism itself coined by people

Last edited Wed Jul 6, 2016, 12:45 PM - Edit history (2)

who hated Jewish people? In fact, I think it was the precursors to the Nazis who said "Hey we need a term to unite us against the Jews" and they coined it to accomplish that.

Why use scare quotes for one but not the other? I'm not saying use/don't use either, but I guess we should look at how these terms are constructed.

No, they aren't the same exact thing, but they're not mutually exclusive either. And it's not just "general criticism of Islam" or "crazed Muslim haters" that concerns people.

And these aren't the fringes; these are politicians, pundits, and other figures who push...

Baioism:
* Named after Scott Baio, the washed up actor turned "terrorism expert" on Fox News is one figure who pushes that if you don't say "Radical Islamic Terrorism" then you might be a secret Muslim (See below) or even a secret Islamic terrorist.
* Islamic terrorists aren't Beetlejuice, they don't disappear if you say their name three times, let's not act like it and let's not give a platform to people who believe it
* And here's an example of Baioism from a certain presumptive Republican nominee

Conspiracy theories:
* "Barack Obama is a secret Muslim"
* "Huma Abedin is a spy for the Muslim Brotherhood"
* Even the right isn't safe from it, we've got the Center for Security Policy and others trying to push Grover Norquist out of positions because he might be a secret Muslim
* And it doesn't even have to be political, we've got Rima Fakih, former Miss USA, being accused of being a secret member of Hezbollah by Debbie Schlussel
(When it's not just Muslim but perceived Muslim, then we do have a problem that isn't just some neutered term of "Anti-Muslim sentiment&quot

Disparities in responsibility:
* There will be another Jason Dalton or Robert Lewis Dear before there will be another Omar Mateen. And of course we will hear about mental illness, drugs, job loss, etc. being a factor. Because it seems as though Muslims are immune to things like mental illness since we jump to ideology of violent Muslims in less than in hour. This needs to be addressed.
* Case in point. Today's mass shooting. Terrorism hasn't even been suggested, so something tells me this guy wasn't a Muslim. We need to realize our own biases.

Plans to exclude Muslims (And not just refugees):
* American Family Association's Bryan Fischer saying all Muslims should be discharged from military service
* Concerned Women for America's Texas branch stating that all Muslims should be fired from government jobs
* A person appearing at a Trump rally and saying all the "hibbi-jabbis" should be let go from the TSA is an example of something 'fringe', but these two groups have federal government connections so I'm going to have to disagree that it's all just a bunch of 'fringe' loonies

Quacks... who are tied to national figures:
* The charlatan "ex-terrorist" industry, with people such as Walid Shoebat and Kamal Saleem. The latter is tied to David Agema, who was part of Priebus's executive committee
* Frank Gaffney who was a part of Ted Cruz's campaign

And there are things I can't put into categories but deserve mention, such as seeing crescents and Islamic symbols everywhere. One such example: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/missile-defense-agency-logo-angers-right/ There is also flagrant misinterpreting of what Muslims say such as the right taking what Laila Alawa said and twisting it around into something completely different. Laila Alawa also had suggestions on how to fight Islamic extremists, but nobody wants to listen to that, that is just one more thing; we have lots of people from the top down who ask why Muslims won't stand up, ask where are the moderates, and say why aren't they assimilating, but then turn around and stick their fingers in their ears when Muslims do just that.

So, is that just "anti-Muslim sentiment" when these things happen, or is there something else at play here?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. Words are words. People will use and manipulate those words as they see fit.

Some people label legitimate criticisms of conservative Israeli policy as "anti-Semitism." How that constitutes wacked out conspiracy thinking, I have no idea.

Meanwhile, other people claim that American Muslims are hell-bent on installing Sharia Law in America and are working sneakily toward that goal as we speak. That seems to fall into the same conspiratorial thinking that you claim is present in anti-Semitism but not Islamophobia.

Let's not pit one form of bigotry against another, okay?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. Excellent response.

[AntiBank]

21. +2

[marmar]

23. +1000

And honestly the OP would benefit from a bit of self-reflection.

[dawg]

15. Lots of people are victims of both.

Arabs are a semitic people.

[ericson00]

17. that retort attempt is nothing but deflection.

In the English (and other European languages), the term anti-Semitism ONLY refers to Jews. Trying to appropriate the term to others is like trying to appropriate the term 'the Holocaust' to other groups; its not applicable, EVER.

Also, this post is about Islam, not Arabs. For most people, no, its not about "hating brown people," its about the ideology and violence people are scared of.

[dawg]

18. I think fear of the "other" is an underlying constant in all of the atrocities ...

that have been perpetrated against persecuted groups of people throughout history. There is no justification for mistreating someone because of things that other people "like" them have done.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. But you are stirring up fear of refugees based on the ideology of a small minority

You're using your fear of Islamists as an excuse to make people hate the refugees. You too are trying to deflect your struggle against refugees with complaints that the word 'Islamophobia' is 'ill-conceived'.