One CAN BE a lifelong good Democrat AND support the TPP

[MohRokTah]

President Barack Obama proves that.

[Scootaloo]

1. One can be right about many things and wrong about other things. This is news?

[guillaumeb]

2. Remember the Latin saying "quid pro quo".

The TPP is, in my opinion, the quo in the Obama Presidency.
Like NAFTA, the real beneficiaries are the large corporations and the military.

The TPP is designed as a way to marginalize China. I have read all the pronouncements about the TPP being a way to bring countries together and lead to less conflict. Why then has China been let out? It is a Pacific bordering country, after all.

The TPP is another weapon in the US arsenal that will be used as a way to isolate and marginalize the Chinese. As such, it actually increases the risk of conflict.

[demmiblue]

3. And people can be wrong, as history proves.

[cali]

4. Rah rah team blue.

President Obama is not a religious figure. He is not infallible.

Of course one can be a lifelong, good Democrat- whatever you mean by "good"- and still support the TPP.

That claim, however, does not speak to the merits of the TPP.

And btw, the vast majority of those opposing the TPP, are not isolationists or anti-trade.

[MohRokTah]

5. I disagree

Anti-TPP people are being isolationist and anti-trade, IMO. One cannot be the one without being the others, IMO.

[cali]

9. Baloney. Tell it to Senator Warren and the thousands of other

informed people who oppose the TPP and are clearly neither isolationists or anti-trade. They support a different template for trade deals.

End of conversations with you... on anything. I find your views, not only undemocratic, but biased in a certain manner that IMO, is unacceptable.

[MohRokTah]

13. Warren is politically grandstanding.

Hopefully she won't be the Veep.

[PufPuf23]

10. Anti-TPP are not necessarily anti-trade and isolationist and if they are, they are wrong.

International trade is good but the free trade pacts as written and enforced are not; the free trade pacts are short-term in practice, loot domestic and 3rd world economies (especially rural), and require military force to maintain.

GATT worked well for decades and was still a valid base for international trade.

The free trade pacts beginning with NAFTA favor trans-national corporations and serve as a 21st century instruments of neo-colonialism, foreign and domestic.

[MohRokTah]

11. I don't believe that.

I don't believe somebody can be anti-TPP while not being anti-trade.

That simply does not compute.

[PufPuf23]

15. Then perhaps you could post about something where you have more understanding?

There is more than one way to manage and foster international trade without the form of TPP and other free trade agreements of the last 20 years.

GATT worked just fine as an evolving method for decades and was what was in place for many periods of strong economies in the 50s-60s-70s-80s.

[MohRokTah]

17. We are in the 21st century,

The ancient paradigms no longer function.

[PufPuf23]

21. Please name some specifics on how the GATT approach is improved by neo-liberal free trade pacts.

Foreign trade is not new to human endeavor nor unique to the USA or trans-national corporations.

[MohRokTah]

22. By using the mocking term "neo-liberal" you have made further discussion with you impossible. eom

[PufPuf23]

25. "Neo-liberal" is not a mocking term no matter how many times you say so.

Neoliberalism from wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

Neoliberalism (or sometimes neo-liberalism)[1] is a term which has been used since the 1950s,[2] but became more prevalent in its current meaning in the 1970s and 80s by scholars in a wide variety of social sciences[3] and critics[4] primarily in reference to the resurgence of 19th century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism.[5] Its advocates avoid the term "neoliberal"; they support extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12] The implementation of neoliberal policies and the acceptance of neoliberal economic theories in the 1970s are seen by some academics as the root of financialization, with the financial crisis of 2007–08 as one of the ultimate results

Neoliberalism and free trade from the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2012/oct/30/neoliberalism-approach-development-ignored-past-lessons

Neoliberalism's 'trade not aid' approach to development ignored past lessons

Neoliberal development policy was radical and abstract, but its uncompromising approach proved dangerous in the real world

• Part one: Walt Rostow and post-1945 development
• Part two: resource extraction and the legacy of colonialism

------------------------------------------------------

Kind of odd that you would think I am mocking as I am not.

[Human101948]

37. And you have provided not one iota of intelligent argument for TPP

You are not doing your cause much good.

[cali]

24. the responses you're getting.

are quite amusing. How dare you use the term "neo-liberal"??!!

[guillaumeb]

34. At least you received a resonse.

I am still waiting for a response to my post up thread.


I remember when Democrats were praising NAFTA while mocking H. Ross Perot. it turns out that NAFTA was all that Perot claimed it would be, but TPP is receiving the same unwarranted praise from many of the same people who apparently learn nothing from history.

[leftinportland]

35. You are being very black and white...

It is not about one or the other...most who oppose TPP do so because it favors multinational corporations over a country's own laws...labor and environmental...take for instance the recent squabble over labeling country of origin. Few are opposed to fair trade between countries that treat and pay their workers fairly...I want nothing to do with supporting trade with a country that suppresses labor movements and enslave workers.

[Scientific]

14. Anti-TPP people are anti-Citizens United, Inc. corporate control

No need to set up "anti-trade" or "isolationist" StrawMen.

You can damn us as being anti-corporate. But then that's not truly accurate either. We are anti-corporations running the whole frikking planet, while the vast majority human beings are marginalized and relegated to the role of Proles.

[hollysmom]

27. the title to this post has been changed because MohRokTah took offense

ETA: happy now - let me put it in plain english. If you like this so much I strongly suggest you be of the 1% because I personally believe everyone is screwed by this.See the my rational below These trade deals were not meant for us to all hold hands and sing kumbayah, they were done so someone would profit, as individuals we are generous but the minute we become a CEO or board, we tend to go after all those below us financially The poorer they are, the more viciously they are attacked..

when we can't make laws to protect our food or environment because it would cause someone profit, the ferengi have won.

[MohRokTah]

29. Must you resort to personal attacks?

[leftinportland]

32. You are wrong...

Big difference between free trade and fair trade.

[MohRokTah]

33. Nope, you are wrong.

No difference other than platitudes.

[leftinportland]

36. You are not trying

Try googling the two terms...no platitudes involved.

[Rex]

7. Bingo. More sad games. nt

nt

[cali]

20. pretty shocking to hear anyone say that making generic drugs less available

is one of the items in the TPP that they find appealing.

[PufPuf23]

6. One can be a good Democrat and be wrong about issues.

Being wrong about some issues weakens the Democrat party and weakens the country.

Please address some specific issues such as Chapter 18 - Intellectual Property.

If one cannot address specific issues with logic, perhaps one is overly partisan rather than looking at the merits.

International Trade is good and provides utility and in theory better uses of capital and resources including labor.

Problems with TPP:

1. Folds many issues better treated separately rather than in one trade pact.

2. Based upon a flawed neo-liberal model that favors trans-national corporations; trade pacts do not need to be based upon a neo-liberal model.

3. Gains are not allocated in a fair manner.

4. Enforcement measures for labor and the environment are weak.

If existing free trade acts were functional, markets would clear and there would not be accumulations of surpluses and deficits; however, inherent in the free trade pacts themselves as written and enforced are multitudes of conditions that break the assumptions of the underlying economic models.

[MohRokTah]

8. Proven by the vast number of PRogressives who are opposed to the TPP. eom

[PufPuf23]

12. Why don't you talk specifics? eom

[Rex]

16. It seems to be a trend.

[cali]

19. that is a valid question.

[Iliyah]

18. And people can be right amongst people who claim they are wrong.

[Indepatriot]

23. What have Hillary's advisers told her to say about TPP this week?

Any bold stances tweeted out lately?

[Vinca]

26. That doesn't make the TPP good.

[CrowCityDem]

28. We can also admit that issues like trade are more complicated than just looking at job numbers.

[Iliyah]

39. Made in America slowly but surely back in the USA

where sells can be assured in the USA as well as abroad. Decent paying jobs with decent benefits, sick time, vacation, pregnancy leave. etc.

Strong Unions.

[Dem2]

30. Whether it's passed or not...

I guarantee you that US jobs will continue to flood to Asia. We have zero leverage right now, I don't know the details of the TPP (99% of people don't), but I would hope it gives us some leverage against countries that violate every environmental and labor law we have to sell us products made using near slave wages.

[MohRokTah]

31. Africa is poised to become the new Asia

French manufacturing jobs are already being sourced to Morocco and Algeria. It's become so important the French laid high speed telecommunications lines across the Med, and that will end up leading to IT jobs being sourced to African nations.

We're wasting too much time on TPP now, we need to ratify it already and prep for the coming changes in global labor sourcing that the entire African continent represents, and that will make the Asian outsourcing of the past two decades seem like just a warmup for the big game as there is far more in the way of untapped labor resources poised to put Asian people out of a job than there ever was when jobs started moving from North America and Europe to Asia.

[Human101948]

38. Yes, the labor component of manufacturing can be driven down to virtually zero...

by exploiting the starving masses. How is that going to help the 99 percent in the USA?

[leftinportland]

43. The exploitation of the working class (aka most of us) continues...

Capital chasing after lower and lower wages facilitated by an one sided trade agreement...

[Marr]

40. I remember when the fans were still denying TPP was even real, much less supporting it.

I wish I could say these simultaneous 'evolutions' were surprising.

[CentralMass]

41. Senator Warren talking about the TPP on C-SPAN

[Teamster Jeff]

42. If a Republican president were pushing this corporate bullshit I'd bet you'd be against it

[Politicalboi]

44. No they can't

Obama can support it because they won't be drilling anywhere near he lives. Anyone who supports TPP isn't a real Democrat IMO. But some of us found out the hard way about "real" Dems and not "real" Dem's and we'll vote accordingly. We won't be fooled again!

[smirkymonkey]

45. WTF?

[840high]

46. I'm a democrat since

1964 and do not like TPP.