Risks of Harm from Spanking Confirmed by Analysis of Five Decades of Research

[Humanist_Activist]

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:-1px -1px 3px #999999 inset;"]AUSTIN, Texas ­ — The more children are spanked, the more likely they are to defy their parents and to experience increased anti-social behavior, aggression, mental health problems and cognitive difficulties, according to a new meta-analysis of 50 years of research on spanking by experts at The University of Texas at Austin and the University of Michigan.

The study, published in this month’s Journal of Family Psychology, looks at five decades of research involving over 160,000 children. The researchers say it is the most complete analysis to date of the outcomes associated with spanking, and more specific to the effects of spanking alone than previous papers, which included other types of physical punishment in their analyses.

“Our analysis focuses on what most Americans would recognize as spanking and not on potentially abusive behaviors,” says Elizabeth Gershoff, an associate professor of human development and family sciences at The University of Texas at Austin. “We found that spanking was associated with unintended detrimental outcomes and was not associated with more immediate or long-term compliance, which are parents’ intended outcomes when they discipline their children.”

http://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/risks-of-harm-from-spanking-confirmed-by-researchers

I figure a more general conversation is warranted.

[swhisper1]

1. not really, discipline is personal preference and alot of huffy arguing not worth my time

[Humanist_Activist]

3. How is it personal preference when harm is demonstrated? n/t

[Major Nikon]

15. Not just risk of harm but counterproductive

So why do something that doesn't work and increases risk of harm to children just because you can? Makes even less sense than telling your kids to ride their bikes without helmets.

[Humanist_Activist]

50. The evidence suggests that it would be counterproductive, are you saying its actually effective....

from what I can tell, you only have your opinion backing you.

[Humanist_Activist]

90. True, but why risk it at all, particularly since its counterproductive...

that's the point, if, as the evidence suggest, spanking does no good, then why do it at all?

[Major Nikon]

53. This is just bizarre

Somehow I'm supposed to derive all of this from 4 completely unrelated words, and you're trying to attribute something else completely unrelated to me.

For your sake I hope you unintentionally replied to the wrong person.

[merrily]

7. The OP article is not about discipline but about harming children.

No one is saying, "Don't discipline your child," but there are other ways to discipline children.

[jtuck004]

18. That's like saying molesting your little daughter is just personal preference.

This is actual harm.

Not a trivial thing, if you care about your kid more than your ego.

[uponit7771]

23. +1, and the lack of empathy or even progressive solutions to a child who's threatening and defiant

... are gob smacking.

People want to point and punish and not teach anyone to a better way...

It's "take the parent to jail" not show them a more progressive means

[uponit7771]

27. Spanking = beating?!?! I agree with the poster, there's much huffing about

[uponit7771]

31. I agree, hitting anyone TO cause pain isnt productive.. spanking a child with the intentions and the

.... means NOT cause pain is NOT the same as the aforementioned.

And Yes, I'm 100% OK with a husband spanking his wife especially when she's been a "bad girl"

See, there are other perspectives ... Come now, let us reason together, some people are 100% uncomfortable with spanking when there are worse forms of corporal punishment, like isolation, that are 200% worse !!

I don't think this should ever be a one size fits all conversation... and sometimes its the difference between good and best and one should not be the enemy of the other.

I do agree, I don't own my kids but I give them boundaries... they don't physically or mentally abuse other or their property and talk to other people like they want to be talked to.

They step outside those bounds then there are consequences and spanking is the last straw if ever called for

[uponit7771]

37. Ah, didn't read the non-consensual so no... its not ok to hit anyone and we agree that one size does

... fit all

Spanking and physically abusing a 200 lb 6'2 teenager who wants to threaten their parents are 2 different things...

Why is it different with children, and how can you hit someone to "punish" them without causing pain?

Relative to force used... this goes without saying no?

What are you defining as spanking?

You're making light of child abuse in my view.

No, I'm not falling into a hard locked position on the issue and claim that my way is best for you or vice versa

This study also leaves out gating information in regards to corrective action process's with children one being an outlined alternative (cause there isn't one) and a process of corrective action that escalates the consequences for overt difiant behavior so I tend to take them with a grain of salt.

I'm not comfortable one way and another person can be comfortable the other way, saying its child abuse is hyberbole much

[Humanist_Activist]

51. So basically you are disregarding the study because it contradicts your preconceived notions...

on parenting which apparently involve using violence as a "corrective action".

Very interesting.

[uponit7771]

69. No, I'm not disregarding the data at all Just HOF hyperbole and my way great your way sucks mentali

... and overly judgmental people.

[Android3.14]

52. You are exactly correct.

The goal of spanking is to change the behavior of persons who don't know any better. Unlike abuse, spanking isn't about one person controlling another, but about teaching a juvenile to exhibit self control.

Different methods achieve the results, and when it comes to raising kids, abuse is pretty obvious.

For those who want to legislate to a parent how to raise their kids, go mind your own knitting.

[uponit7771]

70. RIGHT!! And SOMETIMES... there needs to be an instant negative reaction and it doesn't have

... to be spanking (again not physical abuse of the child) that CAN NOT including a RELATIVELY elongated discussion (cause a 5 year old is going to instantly forget what they did wrong) about best choices and crap.

I wrote it down thread that my parents didn't turn out any way these guys are illustrating at all and RARELY used spanking

[muriel_volestrangler]

113. No, it obviously IS about one person controlling another

Self control is not about the risk of pain if you do something 'wrong'; it's about the person thinking of the consequences of their actions. A spanking is an external punishment; if it teaches any lesson, it's "don't get caught". The judgement that precedes a spanking has to, by definition, come from outside the person.

It looks like we really do need this discussion, if anyone can think spanking teaches self control.

[Android3.14]

119. Some advice.

[muriel_volestrangler]

120. Bringing up a child is not a 'business', it's a responsibility

and wise people would be willing to listen to research into what produces well-balanced children and then adults, and what doesn't.

[uponit7771]

71. A parent that needs to. Also teenager that is 14 and 6'2 and 200 lbs isn't a man at all...

... that's a strawman.

They're teenagers, period and need to go through a corrective action process to make sure they know they're out of bounds

Also, people are conflating and making the term spanking nebulous ... its not

[Humanist_Activist]

77. Who the fuck spanks teenagers at all? That's definitely not normal. n/t

[uponit7771]

81. Again, a parent that needs to... what is your perspective of what a spanking is? tia

[Humanist_Activist]

82. No, even if I conceded that spanking is something parents should be allowed to do, if they are...

doing it for kids beyond the age of 8 or so, something else is going on. Its just fucking creepy.

Who the hell spanks 13-18 year olds? Really?

ON EDIT: If your teenager is threatening you at that age, you call the cops, you don't try to spank people who can, theoretically, overpower you.

[Humanist_Activist]

89. I know, I couldn't even fathom trying to get a teenager to cooperate with a spanking...

I mean, if they are of equal size, or getting close, your going to have to tranq them and bag them or something. lol

Its just fucked up.

[uponit7771]

93. See...this is exactly what I mean right here...perfect example

...of not having a boundary.

It's illegal in the lone star strike back at parents

Parents can spank thier kids in Texas until they are 17... legally and in front of the cops.

The kid doesn't like it too damn bad don't screw up... and if it gets to that point the kid has gone too far anyway.

Striking BACK at parents is domestic violence here...it stays with the kid for a sec and allows for too much other bs but puts real legal constraints in what the kid can or can't do depending on grades....in Court ...they take the grades very seriously.


Been there with other young adults who have misunderstood thier authority in their parents houses....which is about none.

Parents who hit kids are weak and pathetic to me.

I find also this stance very prevalent among parents who have dealt with REAL defiant teenagers...not staying up late, failing grades or the occasional middle finger.

No no... sexually abusing other kids, physically abusing other kids and parents and threatening their mothers with physical violence.

Try and have the typical consequence conversation with that level... with out laying the physical authority down first... see how far it gets you

[uponit7771]

95. Not in front of the cops it's not, they'll oversee and make sure its not taking

...too far.

Also were in the lone star...these kids are genetically mutated...

6'5 298 lbs kid running a 5.6 40s at 16...

That's the guy the JV squad....

Not outlying physical boundaries to a kid that big and defiant gets ugly yesterday... and calling the cops on em makes it worse in the long run.

Teenagers aren't fully developed ... that's the point... they are young people not adults and making sure the parent is empowered is more important than making people comfortable...these are people's lives... fuck someone's pearl clutching I'd rather have the kid productive.

There's no one size fits all here and corporal punishment in the right context does the

I'm not talking about beating a person either... that's more huff hyperbole

[uponit7771]

96. So you think you would get away with hitting your mother back in most

.. states and not spend some very serious time in juve?

You know what they do to parent beaters there?

.......

Spanking is not beating

That's pearl clutching huff... it's outlined by law for a reason.

The sense of privileged here is gob smacking and the study seems to be myopic at best

There's nothing ithing in it saying what escalation process was used etc

Did you get spanked? Yeah... you fucked up? Yeah...is not a comprehensive study.

[Humanist_Activist]

103. You know, when you have to lie to defend your argument, you lost that argument.

You are completely, and inaccurately describing what this comprehensive meta-study contains. Instead you prefer to rely on your personal opinion to back up your argument.

Not even sure why you are taking a position that its OK to spank kids.

[uponit7771]

107. Could you link and quote were they did outline an escalated progressive action process then...

... since you're intimting that I'm lying.

Not even sure why you are taking a position that its OK to spank kids.

Cause not only is it legal but in certain situations its the best move and other peoples comfort level about the subject isn't as important as making sure there's a consistency in corrective actions

[Humanist_Activist]

115. Its behind a paywall, if you want to pay the 12 bucks, read it yourself, otherwise stop...

making shit up about what the meta-study actually studied.

[R.A. Ganoush]

35. Holy crap

I agree with you on something...

There may be hope after all.

[Drahthaardogs]

41. Correlation does not always equal causation

but it is a pscyh study. They are happy they actually got to have a p value.

[Duppers]

104. Then why post in this thread.

Being beaten should not be considered a "personal preference." What a detached, uncaring response.

[swhisper1]

105. I don't want to encourage judgmental discussion

[Duppers]

106. This whole forum is about

Making critical and somewhat judgmental discussions!!
Sheeesh!!

Fyi, I was beaten as a child and emotionally abused from which major problems resulted. A slap on the bun is different than major, constant abuse. And if this study makes one parent think about a better response than physical abuse to a child's behavior, then it's a good thing.

[cherokeeprogressive]

2. I guess I'm the exception that proves the rule.

[GeorgeGist]

4. When did your parents ...

stop spanking you?

[cherokeeprogressive]

11. My DAD spanked me about 8 times in my life.

I earned every one of them.

I'd say 10 or 11 years old.

[cherokeeprogressive]

33. After they had spanked me approximately eight times.

[Humanist_Activist]

9. Precisely, don't let survivor bias cloud your thinking, the outcomes of the majority matter...

considering that, at best, any spankings you endured did NOT lead to emotional or social problems later, the fact is that the risk is run every time a parent raises a hand to their child makes spankings unacceptable.

[laundry_queen]

16. The thing is

we can't know what harm may have been done to an individual. "I'm fine" means many different things to different people. "Fine" to one person might be another's "WTF is wrong with you"

Just think - a sensitive child who may have been a leading scientist or a best-selling author instead ends up as an office clerk due to lack of assertiveness and no real self-worth. They are still 'fine' but what have they - what has the world - missed out on? Does that person even realize it if they believe they had loving parents? Who measures how much they lack in assertiveness due to spanking? How much self worth was taken away? Can we know, for each individual? No, we cannot. Hence why these studies require many children and studies in aggregate...and they show a trend. And that trend says spanking is always harmful.

[laundry_queen]

5. Important point made in this article

"Both spanking and physical abuse were associated with the same detrimental child outcomes in the same direction and nearly the same strength."

[Humanist_Activist]

8. Yeah, its a difference in intensity, rather than one of kind. n/t

[merrily]

10. My father in law believes an adult spanking a small child IS physical abuse and he convinced me.

I am very grateful for that.

[Brainstormy]

12. Your father in law is correct

Kids are not for hitting. period.

[merrily]

13. Thanks to my father in law, you are preaching to the choir.

Considering how I was raised, I am somewhat proud--and forever grateful--that my father in law was able to convince me with one sentence.

[laundry_queen]

17. That is great

I had to deal with parents AND in-laws telling me I was spoiling my kids rotten by not hitting them. Even my now-ex husband was skeptical when the kids were little, but he agrees with me now (although he says that he never hit them because he never 'needed' to and if he ever 'needed' to he would I asked him what would constitute them 'needing' a spanking...he couldn't tell me. Once we divorced I'm pretty sure he wasn't about to find out what I would tolerate, he knows my strong views on this.)

My oldest is now an adult and the others are not far behind (4 in total). So far, so good. I'm so glad I never, not once, hit them.

[merrily]

19. You may be able to raise a child less than optimally by indulging every whim instantly.

I haven't studied that enough to know if it's true or not. Maybe, as long as the child gets that everyone in the world is not going to be as indulgent as his or her parents, nothing is wrong with indulging whatever you can indulge. However, I don't think you ever "spoil" a child. They bruise, but they're not fruit. And you certainly don't spoil them by laying off child abuse.

[laundry_queen]

20. Interesting study

that I read about when I was taking my social psychology course - they did a study of a bunch of families and after some research put their parental styles in 4 categories: 1 -authoritarian, 2-strict but loving, 3-loving/indulgent, 4-borderline neglectful (ie kids running wild)

The researchers followed the families for many years until the children were adults. They theorized that the best ways to raise children, in this order, would be #2, 3, 1, 4

What astounded them, was they didn't realize how detrimental a 'strict' (defined as occasional spankings, but generally loving) upbringing would be. They found that the most successful kids were actually from group #3, followed, surprisingly by group #4. Then #2 and #1.

So, indulging and ignoring children is far less harmful than previously thought. So people who whine about 'those brats running around need a good spanking' are totally wrong. Thankfully, I was always able to stand my ground. I had to live with my parents for a short period of time (they offered) and it became clear after a bit of time I had to set some boundaries, as they figured they could treat my kids as they had treated me (my dad was an a-1 authoritarian). At one point I had to say to them, "Excuse me, you may not talk to them that way. These are my children. MINE, not yours. You had your chance to raise yours your way, and now I'm raising mine my way."

Now, one might say, 'their house their rules' but I will say my kids were not breaking any rules when this happened, nor were they misbehaving. My mom set out some Christmas candies, told my kids to help themselves and then 2 minutes later my dad decided that he was going to put the candy away because it was too close to dinner (it was an hour away, and I didn't mind) and the youngest 2 kids started crying because they didn't get much. He thought that was unacceptable and started yelling at them. #1, I said it was okay #2, they were told to help themselves. I told him he was not allowed to control them in that way. Anyhow...he had a bit of a snit fit, but he didn't dare intervene again after that. I only put the explanation because i know there are people reading thinking that my kids were probably misbehaving and being brats..nope. They rarely misbehave. They are so good that everyone goes out of their way to comment on how well behaved my kids are (teachers, coaches, relatives, neighbors, other parents). But..you know. They are spoiled.

Sorry, got off on a tangent there.

[merrily]

21. Thank you. I am glad you went to all that trouble.

I wish that public schools would teach things like the existence of these studies. It may not stick verbatim with kids until they become parents, but at least something will remain with them, if only to google issues like spanking to see what studies show about it.

Unrelated: As I composed my prior post, it occurred to me that we don't warn our kids that others will treat them very differently than parents. We just throw them into play dates, pre-school, kindergarten and hope they learn to swim fast.

Speaking of discipline, it's past my bed time. Have a great night and thanks again.

[uponit7771]

29. wait, so letting a kid 'run wild' as in physically abuse people and their parents, destroy property

... destroy themselves was more apt to produce more successful people than giving boundries and love with rewards or even being authoritarian!?!?

Every time I read some of these studies it sounds like studies done by people with privilege of some kind and not real studies of kids that are in trouble practically.

... I mean REAL kids that are borderline going to make jail a lifestyle and or be a non productive citizen at all.

Would love to read this study

[laundry_queen]

63. If 'giving boundaries' meant spanking, then yes. nt

[uponit7771]

72. No, spanking is part of the corrective action process that could be used but usually is the last...

... straw.

In the example I give you have a 150 lb kid bullying others with verbal or physical violence and could care less what you say about the day being good because they've associated their behavior with power and authority.

You do what?

There are legal steps of course but those are worse than any physical spanking I'd want to implement...

There needs to be more than "I wouldn't do that" when a parent needs to be impowered

[laundry_queen]

97. It's not corrective action, it's abuse

and causes damage. It should never be used, not even as a 'last straw'. When I had my kids I made it "not an option" and so, I never resorted to it.

If a large child (and I'm guessing older) is bullying other kids, there's a reason that kid is already in that position and by then it may be too late for a parent who caused the problem to rein it in. I'll tell you what - beating or spanking isn't going to do SHIT but make the whole situation worse. And who the heck would spank a child that big? someone who isn't smart enough to deal with a child like that, that's who. That kid probably would need more intense therapy...and maybe someone to show that they give a shit, or someone who lets them know they expect more from them...and it won't work in all cases, some kids are sociopaths (my best friend has such a child) and in that case you have to convince the kid that certain behaviors are in their best interests. It's really not that hard. If a person can't figure it out, they shouldn't be working with kids.

My 2nd daughter is easily 150 lbs and significantly taller than me (And stronger), and if I hit her, that would be abuse. And it would be pointless because it would teach her nothing. Weirdly enough, even though she's larger, stronger, taller etc, she is a good kid who has empathy, helps me out, does her chores when asked, has a job, etc. If I would have used spanking as my discipline tool, which is simply teaching that someone big can make you do something because they can hurt you, I'd be screwed right about now.

The parent who needs empowerment to learn other ways of disciplining a larger teenager also needs heavy therapy, parenting classes, non-violent communication classes...and so on. And then, that parent would have to re-gain their child's trust, because I can guarantee if that parent has hit or beat their child as the favored method of discipline up until that point, there is no real trust there.

Anyway, no use talking with you because you seem convinced. Really, there are literally hundreds of books out there on how to deal with kids without spanking and why it is more effective. Maybe pick one or two or several dozen up and read them. Most of us who are saying "I wouldn't do that" have read those books - that is where your "more" is. Spanking is for the lazy. The knowledge is out there. Learn it.

[uponit7771]

109. "by then it may be too late for a parent who caused the problem to rein it in" giving up on a kid is

... more abusive than a spanking by far.

No kid is "too late" to be productive member of society

[laundry_queen]

111. Reading comprehension helps

perhaps this is why you resort to spanking.

The operative words in that sentence are 'for a parent who caused the problem'. Meaning, a parent who had abused the child to that point is not likely to be the person who is best to fix it - that it is likely best someone else that the child can trust and count on do it. In no way does that mean that it's 'too late' for the child, but rather, for that parent.

Lordy.

[hunter]

40. I had the feral upbringing, my parents having too many kids, too fast.

It was indulgent too, in the sense we knew our needs as children would be met, plus a little extra sometimes. We had clothing, even if it wasn't the clothing we wanted, and we had food, even if it wasn't the food we wanted.

I never got all the radio and computer parts I desired, but I got enough to pursue my obsession. And books. If my parents won't buy a book for a kid it's because they don't have any money.

My parents are artists. When they were not working their day jobs they were pursuing their art, and we were largely unsupervised.

Our parents have interesting friends too. LGBT guests were safe and unremarkable to us as children. Society being what it was then (and still is in many communities), we also learned to be protective.

Some kids in the neighborhood were told by their parents they were not allowed to visit our house. I always figured it was the anarchy that bothered authoritarian parents, but it was the fact that our house was a refuge for kids whose parents punished them, and later in our teen years especially, a place with adults who dealt directly and honestly with issues of human sexuality.

My parents were feral children too.

Punishment is the most useless thing in the world. Children have to be trained to accept it. Even then it rarely sticks, but it does do a lot of damage to the individual punished, and to the overall society.

[laundry_queen]

67. I agree.

The 'feral' kids I grew up with are all successful business people with their own businesses or they are successful people in odd and varied occupations (lol,from the ones I kept up with after graduation, one is a heli-skiing instructor, the other is a wilderness tour guide in the mountains, one is a high school drama teacher).

I agree about punishment. With my kids, I always just talk about what they've done, how it has affected other people, how it made other people feel, how we can make things right again. There was a kid's show when my kids were little where the main character was told by his parents that he couldn't just say he was sorry...there were 3 parts to apologizing, one is you say your sorry, one is to feel and act sorry, and the third is to show you are sorry by making up for what you did. I make my kids live by that. I don't make it about punishing, I make it about 'how can we fix this'. And I involve them and ask their input. It's so much more effective than, "get to your room, no phone for you!". It forces them to be active rather than passive in their own lives.

Anyhow. Thank you for sharing your experience

[uponit7771]

73. So is enforcing the idea that there is little consequence to stepping out of bounds which in some...

... places the kids are taught stepping out of bounds is a lot more than taking an extra piece of candy.

Sexual abuse, phyiscal abuse, verbal abuse includes the stepping out of bounds... no consequence (or punishment?) isn't the best way to ENFORCE those bounds.

Either I'm missing what you're saying with "punishment is the most useless thing in the world" or there's a whole different idea of teaching boundry's

good discussion

tia

[hunter]

91. "You broke it, you fix it" is a much tougher expectation than "you might get punished."

Especially when you, as a kid, can't fix something. Then you learn about forgiveness. People may or may not forgive you, later you may or may not forgive yourself.

My kids are grown, were straight-A students in high school, graduates of excellent colleges, but they were not angels, not at all.

For example, if they lost their car privileges as teens, either our cars, or going out in their friend's cars, it's because they'd done something irresponsible with cars and I didn't want them on the road. Cars are not toys. That wasn't punishment, that was protective.

It's much easier to punish a kid and be done with it than it is to explain to them where they went wrong and how to fix it, and then not letting go of the issue until you, as a parent, are certain they understand.

I've never ever worried about possible punishment, not as a kid, not as an adult. Likewise I've never learned the thrill of escaping punishment, of "getting away" with something. Shoplifting? Unprotected sex? What's the point? I worry a little about damaging myself. I worry a lot more about damaging others.

[uponit7771]

92. Ok...so there is consequences enforced and I agree 100%..

...on the ybiyfi.

Then there's a sense of appreciation for paying attention, or not being messy etc.

[hunter]

99. Paying attention and not being messy... that wasn't on my parent's radar.

Those were areas where we were feral.

My mom expected us to do our own laundry starting about eight years old. If we didn't, that was on us.

There were some purely sanitary standards for kitchen and bathroom, absolutely necessary whenever we happened to be living in a house with only one bathroom, but the state of bedrooms was entirely determined by each room's occupants.

When my grandma would move in with us, usually after she'd been kicked out of an assisted living place, her room was always the worst. She had this awful cat too who would attack any trespassers. I have a few scars from that cat.

[uponit7771]

24. Not given a relatively instant negative reaction to detrimental behavior is more abusive than doing

... nothing at all.

seems like the positions here are between good and best and one being the enemy of the other.

I do not think in anyway a spanking is physical abuse at all.

[Bluenorthwest]

100. You present the choices as A. Hit your kid, or B. Do nothing at all.

There are other choices.

Parents who hit their kids get kids that have been hit.

[uponit7771]

108. I was responding to a post, that's not my position at all

[merrily]

118. False dilemma. It is not a choice between spanking and doing nothing.

There are instant negative reactions other than spanking.

As far as it not being abuse, the OP article says 50 years of research say it is harmful. Weighing that against your unvarnished opinion might be useful for you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. I was spanked more often by teachers than parents.

I realized that it was wrong after my own child #2.

People model what they learned. I agree with your father in law, and am making the same case to my daughter in law. (My son, who doesn't have kids yet, thinks there's nothing wrong with spanking. I'm reminded of the phrase "the sins of the father&quot

I might only make an exception for very risky behaviors like running into traffic and not at all when they are old enough to be reasoned with.

[merrily]

6. FIVE DECADES of research? How many decades of research with no legislative action would it have

taken if kids were guppies, or if the Bible said, "Use the rod and spoil your child?"*

As a kid, I was, um, disciplined, so I assumed that was a given of parenting. Thank heaven, before I was married, I heard different from my then fiance's uncle and father.

*A shepherd carried a rod is to show his sheep which direction he was going in and used the crook at the end of the rod to pull them back into the herd if they wandered. If shepherd's used the rod to beat sheep, wouldn't that have hurt the sheep--his livelihood--or forced them to run away? The staff was to defend himself and his sheep from robbers. Hence, we have the Bible saying "Thy rod and they staff, they comfort me." If either or those things were used to beat sheep, that Biblical sentence would make no sense, even to a sheep.

[ManiacJoe]

74. If I am reading the article correctly, it is a study of other studies.

Seems like there was no original research done.

[wryter2000]

78. Right

It was a mega-analysis. Still valuable.

[merrily]

116. It's was an analysis of 50 years of original research. I'm not getting your point.

[phylny]

22. Thank you for posting this. This validates my every-day actions while

working in Early Intervention. Of course, I don't hit children (there goes the license, here comes jail time!) but some families I work with do. I had a conversation with the grandmother of one of my clients, with mom present. Mom is working hard to reduce child's behavior of hitting. She uses praise for good behavior (positive reinforcement) and time-out for hitting (negative reinforcement). She does not hit.

GRANDMA, on the other hand, smacks his hand when he hits her and says, "No hitting!" During our discussion, I explained that research shows that positive reinforcement changes behavior the fastest, and that by hitting him when you're telling him not to hit, you're confusing him, and adding punishment, which in the long run won't be successful.

She responded that "Well, he's not hitting ME anymore!" and I said, "But he's still hitting his mother." She basically answered, "I don't really care about research, I'm going to keep smacking his hand." The boy's mother was silently rolling her eyes at her mom.

I might add, this is a rebel-flag-flying, "Don't tread on me" license plate displaying family. Research? We don't need no stinking research!

[uponit7771]

25. sophistry, "specific to the effects of spanking ALONE" they did no study on escalated corrective..

... action process with spanking included or other forms of corporal punishment (some worse than spanking but allowed by law)

Yes, I figure just spanking a child and walking away with no explanation of why or warning of consequence or any other intermediate action would leave anyone fucked up.

Sophistry

Also, there's no alternative actions that have been proven to work illustrated in the article...

More finger wagging for the Perfect Parent Brigade


Edit: I've seen kids that openly defy parental or social boundaries with little consequence because there's little to take from them other than food. They don't have much to begin with in the first place so the parents already feel disarmed, I don't think at all that spanking is a panacea but don't disarm the parent..as this article does... without alternatives escalated progressive corrective action.

[Humanist_Activist]

48. Why do you claim they didn't study "escalated corrective action"?

Also, the study doesn't involve looking for alternatives, why do you want a meta-analysis to be involved in things outside its scope? What its saying is using spanking as a form of discipline is ineffective, counterproductive and carries the risk of damaging the child, period.

You seem to want to attempt to debunk the study, where is your counter studies, counter evidence?

Also, can you list example that are "worse than spanking" but are still legal, I'm all ears.

[muriel_volestrangler]

114. No, you've misread that. "Alone" IS opposed to "other types of physical punishment"

in the sentence that mentions 'alone'. What they're saying is that even if you stop at spanking, it's still detrimental to the child - it's not just when you also escalate to more severe physical punishment.

[dubyadiprecession]

30. Your confusing spanking with physical abuse....

I loved my father (a strong FDR democrat) even though he would spank me if i were bad. He would give me warnings like "don't do that again or you will get the belt!" If I did something he warned me against, I would get the belt. I respect that, as children need to know they can't just do whatever they want without a negative consequence.

On the other hand, if your beating your children for no other reason than your blind with rage at the world. Your probably creating a problem for future society.

[uponit7771]

32. +1, and the study said this ..."specific to the effects of spanking ALONE"... well yeah....

... if a parent just haphazardly spanked their child ... even with no means of causing pain or abuse... and just walked away with little productive teaching then I'm thinking anyone would be screwed up.

The study doesn't outline the effects what you did which sounds like an escalation in corrective action proceeded by grace and multiple warnings then corporal punishment.

I... I just know the generation that DID get spanked I perceive them to be mentally tougher... maybe because of wars or maybe because of environment or some other factors (good or bad) but the country wasn't going to hell with a lot more folk wanting to kill anything that moved either.

jmho

[Humanist_Activist]

47. Mentally tougher? I'm sorry that's just not true...

Things were not better in the past, past generations were more violent, more abusive to each other and their children, etc. We are at the least violent we have ever been in a generation. Several factors go into that, but what you are claiming isn't true.

[Humanist_Activist]

45. They isolated for that if you would read the article and paper...

the negative outcomes are only slightly different between the two.

[uponit7771]

75. Yes of course because they said ..."SPANKING ALONE" which is at the least confusing cause of

... course if someone just haphazardly just started spanking their kids and didn't go through any other process relative to correction action anyone would be screwed up.

That's their words, "spanking alone"... well, who in the real world does that?!??

There's usually warnings, discussion and all kinds of preambles to spanking ...

That's what I said above that its weird they would leave an escalated corrective action process out of the study and just study "spanking ALONE"

[Humanist_Activist]

76. I like how you take two words out of context and add your own definition to it...

this meta-analysis is trying to isolate physical abuse from what most people define as spanking. Shit, here's the sentence: "The researchers say it is the most complete analysis to date of the outcomes associated with spanking, and more specific to the effects of spanking alone than previous papers, which included other types of physical punishment in their analyses."

It has no relation to what you are talking about, which is, to be blunt, completely made up.

[uponit7771]

80. That's their words, not mine... also in the study they don't say whether or not there was any other

... corrective action process and that's NOT made up there's no context of where this implementation is evaluated.

Its not there

They don't outline that at all and that's a common theme in most of these studies, people just spanking kids... nothing else.

What the hell !?!?

Q: were you spanked?
A: Yes
Q: Are you fucked up
A: Yes

what?!

ok...

Let me know were I missed this data of some type of escalated progressive action process including spanking in their study.

tia

[Humanist_Activist]

83. Its a meta-analysis of other studies where they try to isolate the variables, what they found is...

that physical "discipline" doesn't work, no matter how mild it is.

[HuckleB]

36. K & R!

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. The harm in fatherlessness is at least as compelling

http://www.fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-consequences-of-fatherlessness/

Clearly, the best for a child is to not be spanked in a home in which the biological father is present.

[loyalsister]

43. Unless the father is a bad influence

Like, maybe he doesn't spank the kid but he hits their mom. Or, maybe he's a drug addict, etc.

Spewing BS conventional wisdom that it is a horror for a kid to not live with their father has kept several women I know personally in abusive relationships (including my own mother).
I cringe every time I hear it without acknowledging the caveat that the positive effect of fathers applies specifically to fathers who model behavior that will be helpful to the kids to learn. People who make women feel guilty for not staying with the father because it deprives her children can do a lot of damage.

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. There are undoubtedly exceptions to the prohibition on spanking too.

But the data on both issues are clear. It's better to not be spanked in a family in which dad is present.

[loyalsister]

46. I would have been quite happy without mine

And my sister's kids would be much better off without theirs around to spank them and teach them how to use guns. On the flip side, there are also children who are better off without their mother's influence.

In the case of spanking the research quite clearly indicates a significant risk, and much of the damage is not visible until much later. The same is not true with negative or damaging parental role modelsinfluences, as the real life daily effects are very clear in immediate interpersonal awareness. Yet, people are still guilted into staying because a kid needs a fathermother (research says so).

Your comparison is apples and oranges and pushing that research without consideration of variables can be seriously damaging. Churches and faux "marriage counselors" have done it for a very long time and it has done quite enough damage.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. The studies are repeatable and well documented.

Even after controlling for variables such as income, kids in households with a biological father present do better. A "father figure" doesn't cut it. Families with step fathers attempting to fulfill this role are no better, and often worse, than single parent families.

One other thing, regarding guns

[loyalsister]

57. Again

The real world DAILY consequences of having certain parents in the picture is immediately obvious.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. And yet, the social impact of excluding these "bad" fathers from households

result in statistics such as a 279% greater risk of the kids carrying guns and dealing drugs.

Data from three waves of the Fragile Families Study (N= 2,111) was used to examine the prevalence and effects of mothers’ relationship changes between birth and age 3 on their children’s well being. Children born to single mothers show higher levels of aggressive behavior than children born to married mothers. Living in a single-mother household is equivalent to experiencing 5.25 partnership transitions.

The fatherlessness -> prison -> absentee father treadmill is killing communities.

[loyalsister]

60. So, women whose abusive, drug addict husbands

should be reunited with their families upon release? I wonder if my nephew would have been less agressive if he had been born when her husband broke her jaw.

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. Maybe they wouldn't be abusive drug-addict husbands if they had fathers. n/t

[loyalsister]

64. Or maybe they learned that behavior from

their father andor mother. That is exactly how people learn what is appropriate in interpersonal relationships.

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. The fatherless kids that are nearly 300% more likely to carry a gun didn't learn that from dad.

Probably not from mom either. People learn things even in the absence of parental influence.

[loyalsister]

68. And yet

Fathers taking their kids hunting is tradition in some families. What exactly does "fatherless" mean? Is that referring to a father who is not present in the home but shares custody? Are fathers who are in prison or dead as a result of violence make those kids "fatherless" or did they, at some point exist?


https://www.elementsbehavioralhealth.com/news-and-research/domestic-violence-perpetuates-cycle-of-abuse-in-children/

[REP]

62. Someone should tell those "dads" who absent themselves from their families

Despite my farther's behavior, I've not been arrested nor do I carry a gun but I have college education.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. And you obviously consider yourself exceptional in that regard.

Because you are in fact the exception.

[Humanist_Activist]

49. Not sure how that is even relevant to the thread, many times the status of single parenthood...

isn't a choice by either parent, or is only a choice of one of them.

Other times its done on purpose, though that's more rare. What we could do is increase the social safety net to life single parents out of poverty much more easily, have them rely less on work to get by, so they can concentrate on child development, etc. There's also the sex discrimination in pay, which reduces a woman's ability to pay for her family without taking on multiple jobs, etc.

I'm trying to keep things gender neutral because I acknowledge the reality of LGBT couples having children, and there is no evidence that lack of the biological father negatively affects their children. The outcomes of kids brought up in same sex household where two parents are present is nearly indistinguishable from those brought up in different sex households.

It seems, given this evidence that, while its ideal when a man and a woman has a child they are both involved in that child's life, the most important things are for that child to have caregivers that can become engaged in their lives and financial and emotional stability in the home.

The other problem is that, while the lack of responsible fathers is worrying, its not something that can be legislated outside of forcing them to pay child support. You can't legally force someone to help raise their child when they aren't engaged in their lives at all.

[laundry_queen]

98. +1 nt

[niyad]

55. for one thing, it teaches a child that it is okay for someone bigger to physically assault someone

smaller. not a good lesson.

[kimbutgar]

58. A lot of republican self servicing people were probably spanked

Most right wingers I know have told me their childhoods were hard and parents were strict.

These children who were not nurtured and cherished grow up to be right wingers.

In my husband's family one of his sisters married a guy who was raised on the strap. He also used the strap on his 4 kids. They are all grown up bitter losers who barely get by and vote republican by reflex. They would benefit from some socialism in their lives but are against all forms of it.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. We've never spanked our kids

And they're great people.

[Juan_George09]

86. This isn't at all surprising

I've always been firmly against using violent means of discipline, as it has a tendency to perpetuate a cycle of violence, passed down from parent to offspring.

[Skeeter Barnes]

101. If you want your kids to despise you, hit them. They will wish you were dead.

You might not ever know it, but they will wish terrible things would happen to you. I used to wish the cops would come and shoot both my parents back when they used to hit me.

It's not OK to hit people, especially your kids. People are supposed to be safe in their homes instead of being brutalized by people 2 or 3 times their own size.

Any parent that hits their kid ought to be in prison. The bully parents should at least have to fight someone twice their size every time they brutalize their kid. Let them get their sicko heads busted and see how it feels. Maybe that would change their attitude to be on the receiving end.

[uponit7771]

110. This is false on its face, my parents generation as an example... which these studies don't address

... along with any type of escalated corrective action process.

[Humanist_Activist]

117. I guess today's kids are just too mentally weak to not be able to stand a spanking or two...

am I right?

[laundry_queen]

112. Yep

I'm an odd person in that I have memories going back to when I was a baby. I vividly remember being a toddler and being hit, and HATING my father. At one point, I was hugging my mom and she thought it would be cute to get a picture of me hugging my dad, and she had to coerce me to go over and hug him. I didn't want to. I distinctly remember wishing he wasn't there at all. I remember learning about God and praying...and being thrilled to bits that I could pray to God to make my dad dead. Every night, I'd try to make deals with God. "I'll be good for mom. I'll eat my peas. Just please make him die so he can't hit me. My life would be so wonderful if he was dead." I couldn't have been older than 3 or 4.

I agree, kids need to feel safe in their homes. When you don't, it changes you. When the very people you need to count on for survival are also the ones you have to fear all day every day, it messes with your head.

BTW, I still speak with my parents, and they know I don't spank my kids, never have, and they know I am very against spanking. They still don't know that I wished my dad would die when I was that little. Or that I still resent him. I know my brother does too, because he has mentioned it to me (but not to my dad). My dad just laughs and my anti-spanking stance and says, "I was beat all the time as a kid. I thought I was being lenient with you guys." and that's the end of it. But my mom never was spanked, so she knew it was wrong and did nothing to stop it. I resent her too.

[Skeeter Barnes]

121. Very sorry you went through that but appreciate you sharing your story.

Earliest I can remember was my mom sucker punching me in the side of the head when I was about waist high to her. They had hit me other times before that but this was the beginning of hitting me in the head. That was punishment for messing up my hair after she had brushed it and it gave me a concussion. She had to have wound up and hit me as hard as she could. My ears rang and I felt dizzy and sick. I was so little that I had to stand on my tip toes to see the top of my head in the bathroom mirror.

I'm 42 now and still go to counseling twice a month due to the anger and fear issues those beatings caused me.

That is terrible what your dad did and that your mom let it happen. I hope your life is much more peaceful now. Thank you for listening and sharing. Take care, friend.

[DesertRat]

102. K&R