Consider this as a clue to how fucked we are as a country.

[Stinky The Clown]

Trump is running a horrible campaign. Just a few descriptors that come quickly to mind are inept, underfunded, rudderless, alienating, self-absorbed, self aggrandizing, ignorant, isolated, outrageous, out of step.

And through all of this, he continues to enjoy significant support from a significant number of voters. Maybe enough to win, maybe not.

Who ARE those people?

Who and what they are is what's wrong with this country.

Dumbfuck Nation is alive and well among us.

[Glorfindel]

1. Nothing lasts forever. Maybe it's just time for the American Empire to collapse

and fade into history. Whatever it will be that takes its place should be quite interesting, though.

[davidthegnome]

20. We are not so far from that, Glorfindel.

If we look at the history of the Roman Empire in particular (which inspired some of our own government philosophies and ambitions) we can see some pretty significant similarities. Our military forces are spread pretty thin - over-extended throughout many international bases. Inner corruption - and financial corruption in particular - has become so severe in our government that there are precious few officials left worthy of trust, respect... or our votes. Still... the "barbarians" are not at the gates yet.

When the American Empire collapses, I suspect it will happen from within. Generally, our military is far too strong for it to be accomplished by an outside force - unless the whole world united against us. On the other hand... the poor, the oppressed, people who have suffered and are suffering under this system of capitalism gone crazy, will eventually have nothing left to lose (some perhaps, already have nothing left) and when that time comes...

Well, I'm not one to advocate for violence. I am hoping that the revolution that eventually comes will be more in Gandhi's style. The various armed militia groups in this Country, the gangs, the cults... our own home grown "Christian armies" I suspect, will have something to say about what happens next. Those of us on the left tend to be somewhat more peaceful and less inclined to own an arsenal of weapons - in general.

Hard to say what the future will look like - but the greater the gap becomes between the rich and the poor... the more the middle, working and poor classes lose... the more likely that eventual revolution (peaceful or otherwise) becomes. Occupy Wall Street, the Sanders candidacy, the Tea Party, the Trump Presidency... I think these things are hinting at where we are going as a Nation - if we don't start doing a lot of things differently.

[snooper2]

36. not going to happen, Country is doing just fine- Thanks Obama!

besides, who would be doing cool shit like modifying cars to have the Worlds Fastest Car in the 1/2 Mile!

240 MPH Turbo Lambo!!!


That sound is like angels having sex!

[LWolf]

47. It's time,

and the cracks are showing.

Meanwhile, a nation fiddles.

[SheilaT]

56. I've been saying this for some time now.

This country reached its peak during WWII, and in the ten or fifteen years after. I would date the beginning of the decline to Ronald Reagan. What's even scarier (in my opinion) than the Donald, is our continued military presence and expenditure. We can have bases in almost every single country in the world, but no universal health care. We can fight endless and never ending wars, but force young people to take on massive debt for a college education.

Clearly our collective priorities are in the wrong place. Meanwhile, people listen to all the wrong people, all the wrong messages, learn all the wrong lessons. Trump is only a small symptom of that.

[Golden Raisin]

60. Bullseye!

[Urchin]

62. The decline

started after JFK.

[immoderate]

65. That's when I noticed it.

--imm

[montana_hazeleyes]

85. I feel that way too.

[awoke_in_2003]

73. The lunar landing was our zenith. nt

[nikto]

83. Great post.

Said a lot, and was concise.

[immoderate]

66. Capitalism eats everything.

--imm

[uponit7771]

2. +1, tRump can put kittens in a vat of grease on prime time TV and 40% of GOP will still vote for him

[FLPanhandle]

3. Don't forget the idiots who won't even vote against Trump

They know what he is and yet won't get off their asses to vote against him

[onecaliberal]

33. Stop. The. Bashing. You don't want your candidate

bashed but you don't mind talking shit about the other side. Just stop it.

[spooky3]

46. I don't think it's bashing. You interpreted it in one way

But there are other interpretations.

Every election year there are millions of people who could, but do not vote.

[Skittles]

63. "your people"

WTF is wrong with you?

[ffr]

41. Rank people who choose not to vote right up there with

Drumpf supporters. They cannot see past their own selfishness, to all of our detriment. All the children and all the people they will have suffer because they won't exercise their civic rights. Not to mention all the downticket candidates and propositions that won't pass because of them either.

Sad really.

[Hortensis]

4. Some populations are doing a bit better, but

what you're describing is the human condition. All our faults and behaviors, and virtues, are found everywhere people live.

Btw, humans are born genetically wired somewhere on the liberal-conservative spectrum, then acted on by environment. Don't admire conservative "values"? The more challenging the climate, including notably hot ones, the more conservative people tend to be (and those living at major coastal ports more liberal comparatively). Just look at political world maps to check this out. Maybe a whole new insight into why the Middle East is so relatively "backwards" by our standards and in such a fucked-up mess?

We've always done so well compared to so many areas mostly thanks to our many geographic assets, and to our liberal founders who insisted on an educated and equally privileged populace, not some intrinsic superiority of our people as most conservatives would have it -- as this election so clearly demonstrates.

While you're at it, check the distribution of conservatism right here in the U.S. against a temperature map... One guess what you'll find.

[Snarkoleptic]

7. Indeed, authoritarians love a strong braggart who talks a good game.

He ignites, and make acceptable, racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. He is not "for" much, but sure excites mouth breathers by shouting out what he is against.

[malthaussen]

21. I disagree with your assessment of our Founders.

The Enlightenment revolution was only intended to go so far, and never except in the most radical of minds was intended to extend to women, non-Europeans, or non-christians (the latter, for precision, should be understood as "openly professed" christians, as their private beliefs might well have been deist or even atheist). I do agree that the importance of education was recognized, and many colonial charters and state constitutions included some kind of "universal" public education, for that value of "universal" that equated to white males who were willing to tolerate and act in accordance with the Christian gospel. As to privilege, though, I cannot imagine why you would say the Founders insisted on "equality" in that respect.

-- Mal

[Hortensis]

30. Oh, I never meant to suggest all that, Malthaussen.

I'm a woman myself.

"As to privilege, though, I cannot imagine why you would say the Founders insisted on "equality" in that respect."

All men are created equal referred to equality before government and under the law, something those "commoners" who fought for a separate nation took very much to heart.

Subsequently the battle was between the conservative factions who wanted the Constitution and other structures to form a nation on the European model of privilege and the liberal factions who were as adamantly opposed to institutionalization of privilege as they were committed to permanent encoding of equality into the law. In gross terms, the Hamiltonians versus the Jeffersonians.

This was THE major defining issue in the establishment of our nation, and has been many times since -- as it is, in fact, right now again in 2016 as we decide whether we will continue the current attempts by some to use government to encourage a trend to inequality and development of privileged and unprivileged classes or put a stop to it. At the crucial time of our founding, of course, the liberal factions had the greatest support and scored the most victories.

Btw, for anyone who hasn't read Jane Mayer's "Dark Money," about who's behind this drive to a what would be a permanent inequality and how they've managed to turn the sympathies of a nation to their cause, I very strongly recommend it.

[malthaussen]

39. Well, that's because we didn't have sidewalks.:)

As to privilege, I think it is a question of expressed ideals conflicting with accepted practice. Hutcheson argued that one of the imperfect rights was the right to deference. His system was all the rage around the time of the Revolution, and IIRC, there is evidence that Jefferson was guided by his principles in many respects (Hutcheson, himself, summarizing and embodying the traditions of the Commonwealthmen, on which contemporary "liberalism" was based). Now, the thing about deference (and privilege) is, how is it earned? As an imperfect right, it does not inhere in the individual by grace of the Creator. In a society where aristocracy is founded exclusively on birth, deference and privilege are owed to those of the right blood, but even in an aristocracy such as that, the "nobility of the pen" had taken hold, so that (for example), a college degree automatically made one a gentleman. Now, in the American colonies, the nobility of blood was not so well-established (although we do see the same names recurring again and again in several colonies and states), and there was no nobility of the sword on which to draw. So the problem for the Founders (IMO, this is my interpretation) was how to justify the deference (and privilege) they felt was their due. This ties in with the "outs and ins" theory of the American Revolution, which I believe has some merit: the Founders were, largely, not of the established aristocracy of the colonies, and were in it to receive the deference and privilege they felt was their due. This is clear in the case of a snob like Washington, who once refused a militia commission from the governor of Virginia because he felt the rank offered was beneath his dignity.

Confronted by the need to legitimize their own ambition for proper deference and privilege, the Founders allowed the framers of our state papers to advocate for a modicum of "equality," and what it really comes down to is whether you believe their rhetoric or not. Note that there were some real radicals among the founders, but they are not household names (and were mostly anti-Federalist to begin with (well, Sam Adams, maybe, but he's a beer company now)). The moderates managed to suppress the radicals and establish a system under which they attained their desires, while apparently advocating for a less-structured society.

-- Mal

[Hortensis]

43. You don't think Jefferson himself had a good streak

of radicalism in him? Of course they all believed class differences were inevitable and somewhat desirable, as you say, differing most strongly in how elites should be identified and rewarded with authority. After all, Virginia was some 250 years old with a long established colonial aristocracy at the time of the revolution. And certainly Jefferson was very much an odd man out when he wrote that "equality" garbage into the Declaration of Independence.

Regarding, why, though, let's not forget wealth, the basis of all enduring privilege under a European system. King George was turning the screws on the colonies, and very much on the colonial leaders who had gotten way above themselves and needed to be brought into line. George Washington's greatest motivator was probably the threat that the king would award to someone else all the western lands Washington had claimed title to over years of hard work. Especially after he denied Washington's consortium title to over a million acres to the west (which would have turned all the settlers who put their lives and wellbeing on the line to own their own land into Washington's tenant farmers) while awarding a similar giant holding to another group. It was apparently right after this that he became a devout believer in independence.

Well, sidewalks in the nicer neighborhoods of nicer towns anyway. I'm pretty sure you're right that lost of "we" did not. But we've wandered pretty far from Stinky the Clown's concern about what Trump's horrifying proximity to the White House says about us as a people.

[malthaussen]

45. True, but I love this stuff...

... you happened to scratch me in the area I find most intellectually fascinating.

If you haven't read Fred Anderson's Crucible of War and Slaughter's Whiskey Rebellion, I highly recommend both. Anderson's, especially, is probably the best history book I have read this century.

You are so right about Washington's land acquisitions (we might quibble over "hard work," since George didn't do a lot to obtain them; that he felt a righteous ownership is very plain), and let's not forget that Mr Franklin had his fingers deep in those lands as well. One of the abiding issues in the pre-Revolutionary days and the early days of the nation concerned the Mother of Waters and whether the trade of the Old Northwest would flow to the Atlantic Seaboard (which those damned mountains made problematic) or down to New Orleans (which we didn't own until later). The more I read about that subject, the more I think it has not been sufficiently emphasized by people who are interested in those times.

I'll stipulate a radical streak in Jefferson, but I think it was more of a theoretical one than otherwise. He's always struck me a bit as the classic brilliant dilettante, and I think his radicalism only extended to areas that did not touch his personal comfort. One notes that he only freed his slaves after he was safely dead, for example. His idea of the sturdy yeoman fit in with some of the more romantic notions of Saxon and English participatory rule (with, perhaps, black slaves substituting for the underclass of those cultures). Locke and Rousseau hold a place in his intellectual space. But there is always for me the difficulty of the Jefferson of rhetoric and the Jefferson of action. He claimed his Presidency was a great revolution, dismantling a large part of the Federalist apparatus that his predecessors had instituted, yet presided over a vast expansion of the government spoils system and the largest land acquisition of our history. The latter ties in both with his ideal of sturdy yeomanry, and the expansion of trade in the West, so I wouldn't call it hypocrisy, or even necessarily an inconsistency. Perhaps we should just consider him an idealist with a practical streak (except, of course, that he was a lousy businessman). As the only colonial with an international reputation besides Benjamin Franklin, he shared a lot of similarities with the latter (except Ben was much the better businessman). I've often thought the dynamic between the two must have been fascinating to watch.

-- Mal

[nikto]

84. Thanks for the tip, here's a related VIDEO

[Tobin S.]

87. Thank you for the book recommendation.

I'm always looking for a good book to read.

[nikto]

86. By this theory, Global Warming would be MAKING MORE CONSERVATIVES

[SmittynMo]

5. Dumbfuck Nation is alive and well among us?

You are absolutely right. Trump's unfavorability rating is 70%. HRC is 55%. BS is 34%.

So explain to me how we got where we are today with numbers like this?

Dumbfuck nation is alive and well. Thanks for pointing this out.

[marble falls]

6. We pay too much attention to RW independents and none at all to progrssive independents.

[secondwind]

8. My 75-yr-old brother-in-law is one of those asshats. His daughter is Christian, she has converted

him, and he swears by t-Rump

[jehop61]

9. I'm a 70 something grandmother

an my Georgia raised grandson and granddaughter will vote for Trump and they also open carry. Trying to convert them by Nov

[mdbl]

71. The religious whackos obviously have no brains

Otherwise they would not support Trump.

[bucolic_frolic]

10. Voters are separated from issues

and GOP talking points have confused and convoluted their thinking

We face an education deficit, in schools, and as citizens

I'm hoping Hillary will surprise on this aspect of the campaign because
she is very clear on issues and logic. I think she speaks more clearly
than her husband ever did, she's older and wiser than he was when in
office, and she's smarter than he ever was.

That said, in a debate, she might be asked why she stuck with him.
She'll be firm and won't bare her soul which is the appropriate reply.

[SmittynMo]

18. Education deficit?

Hmmmm. If education was the issue, one would wonder why we are not fully behind tuition free college? I'm just saying....

As for sticking it out with Bill. HRC knew if she would sweep it under the rug, it would not harm her chances of running again. She's no fool.

[malthaussen]

23. Perhaps because the deficit indicated...

... is one that should be addressed in primary education? What, exactly, are K-12 for, anyway? Even pre-K? Readin' and Ritin' and 'Rithmetic don't take 12-odd years to absorb. If the purpose is to keep a portion of citizens out of the labor pool until age 18, something useful could be done with the time they are warehoused.

-- Mal

[Person 2713]

80. +1 true dat !

[jimlup]

11. So the GOP has sown these seeds

Assuming he isn't elected PROTUS I think it is kinda fascinating to see that party fall apart.

[Downwinder]

12. what is being done to prepare for sea level rise?

At some point the PTB determined there were no solutions and it was time to rip off what they could.

[Nay]

38. The PTB has indeed decided that each person will have to fend for himself during

any climate change problems, food scarcity, money scarcity, homelessness, etc. It's simply a continuation of the culling of all those "useless eaters," as that bastard Kissinger said. If you don't have money, you are a useless eater.

Right now, the PTB are buying up parkland, ranchland, and any useful tracts to keep them wealthy and healthy into the foreseeable future. They'll also hire a few thousand enforcers (for the cost of room and board) to keep the riffraff off their property. Frankly, I'm surprised they haven't let loose a germ to start the culling process in earnest.

[LiberalLoner]

55. +1

[Bluenorthwest]

13. Consider that some of us have raised the Trump warning flags since the 80's while most of the

country went golfing with him, called him 'The Donald' and made him a network TV star. Consider how those golfing Donald fans seem to those who organized against that racist decades ago. This is why the 'Friends of The Donald' like to erase all memory of LGBT activism in the 80's . To admit that activism is to admit that Democrats ignored those activists entirely.

But you can't say we didn't warn you.

[AwakeAtLast]

14. They are characters from "Idiocracy"

Which was supposed to be satire, but watching it gave you that really uncomfortable feeling....

[alterfurz]

42. time to hedge your bets?

[Augiedog]

15. Trump is just the puss leaking out of the boil the Republican Party has become. That self same boil

is on the butt of the NRA which in turn has taken up the curious practice of suborning terrorism via its radical support of terrorist watch list members acquiring weapons of mass destruction.

[AlbertCat]

16. alienating, self-absorbed, self aggrandizing,

He's not alone.

[gordianot]

17. Guns, Guns and more Guns.

It boggles how single minded Trump supporters express themselves. They are totally obsessed that firearms will be confiscated. Impossible to reason. Trump and his stupid statements seem to bounce off their psyche. The conversation usually ends with "Yeah but......." followed by a statement dealing with guns.

[Nay]

40. Yeah, when Obama referred to them as "clinging to their guns and their religion," he really

hit a nerve, didn't he? And Obama was entirely correct. These people couldn't care less about the other amendments but boy howdy the 2nd is worshipped. Why? My feeling is that guns, as embodiments of real power, are the only things left that these people have to make them feel safe. If the govt really wanted to get them, their stupid guns wouldn't mean much, but as the embodiment of power they are important especially to men, if only psychologically.

[world wide wally]

19. Scarey

Ain't it?

[femmocrat]

22. Who ARE those people?

My dumbass yahoo neighbors apparently. Drive around rural Pennsylvania and you will see dozens of trump signs, including big banners. Not one Hillary sign out here.

They must believe that he is going to bring back the steel mills and coal mines.

[malthaussen]

24. Which, when you think of the conditions in those mills and mines...

... is really a short-sighted goal. I suppose it beats pulling coffee at Starbucks, though.

-- Mal

[femmocrat]

25. Well, it's all a pipe dream.

The mines and mills are not coming back. LOL -- we don't have a Starbucks!

It's considered a big deal here to get hired by Walmart!

[maddiemom]

61. But...Trump promised to bring back those jobs!

That's all many of these people hear. No need to ask HOW? No problem that HE manufactures stuff outside the country.

[Person 2713]

82. That wall will bring back the jobs in PA -you'll see, he is very successful in "stuff" he does

Build the wall . It's gonna be great that's how it will be done
These people are beyond dumb and are delusional

[RKP5637]

26. Yep, I'm always shocked by the numbers that agree with Trump. Tells me a lot about some in the US.

It's far different than I expected. It does not bode well for the future of America if this continues. He's a manipulator, so he has captured those fed up with the status quo and offers them over and over the same simplistic words/solutions, over and over again.

[Cosmocat]

27. The stupid is strong in this country

Dumbfuck Nation is a very apt description.

[90-percent]

28. Us Americans really love our Oligarchy

Especially considering we chose two Oligarch's to be our next President.

Our institutions are infested with corrupt sociopaths.

-90% Jimmy

[redstatebluegirl]

29. I have to consider where I live but I have more than a few in our neighborhood.

I have a Joe Dorman for Governor sticker on my car from the last election here in Oklahoma. It is a bit of an fu to say I didn't vote for crazy Mary Fallin. I also have signs in my yard for various Democrats who are running for local and state elections. I pulled into the drive the other day and one of my crazy neighbors stopped walking his dog long enough to yell "Make American Great Again". I could not resist, I said "Make America Racist Again" back at him and walked into the house.

There are lots of Trump signs in our area. In my small neighborhood I would say every third house. The guy across the street, who is what I call a batshit crazy nut, has his entire truck tricked out in Trump stuff.

This is a poor state, and a very racist one in many ways. Two things Trump plays to, their fear of losing what jobs they do have, and their fear of anyone different.

You are correct, the country is certainly dumbing down giving us an even more important reason to get all of the sane people out to vote in November. I can assure you these crazy people will show up.

[HughBeaumont]

31. What I'm not getting is how they think his bullshit is going to be accomplished.

Most of it can only happen if he was a king or dictator. A representative government isn't at all like a board of directors. Theoretically.

[greiner3]

70. They don't care as reason left them generations ago as poorly educated mobs do

[yardwork]

32. Yeah.

[steve2470]

34. I agree, and we've always had a 25% or so fascist minority

Remember, Hitler had support in this country before WW2. Once the war started, that support vanished or went underground. Yes, I know Trump is NOT a Hitler-clone, more like Mussolini, who was the original fascist.

[Trajan]

35. Somewhere, sometime in my early life, I realized an important fact

75% of humanity are ridiculously ignorant ...

I have not adjusted that number very much over the years ...

[Dustlawyer]

37. It's the propaganda from the MSM that is doing this.

We really need to bust up the media conglomerates and fight for Publicly Funded Elections, not necessarily in that order!

[elljay]

44. My attorney friend

He is an ex-Republican who ditched the Party mid-Bush. Ex-military gun owner, but extremely socially liberal and opposed to our trade policies and military interventions. As he explained it to me, his choice is between a corporate-owned person with a terrible record in government who enriched herself through corruption, will sell us out to the multinationals and Wall Street, and who will start another war, and a hotel operator. He finds the hotel operator preferable. Do not underestimate the loathing much of this country has for Hillary- there are many educated people who are voting against her personally.

[Loki]

64. And why do you think that is?

Endless republican smear machine. Every one of us makes a conscious choice whether to believe the propaganda or not to believe it. I will never believe it so I will wear that proudly. I am a Democrat without exception, without apology.

[elljay]

68. That is part of it

The other part I am not allowed to say.

[Skittles]

72. the other part is Hatred for All Things Hillary Hysteria

[elljay]

74. Nope. nt

[Skittles]

75. Yep. nt

OVER AND OUT

[Binkie The Clown]

48. Half of all people have below average intelligence. By definition.

It's always been that way, and it will always be that way. Sad, but, by definition, unavoidable.

[elljay]

69. Try telling them that! nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

49. His support is weakening. Even his base in the FReaks are beginning to question his ability. . . nt

[lunatica]

52. Since his polls have gone down that means his base is leaving him

Because they're the only ones supporting him from the beginning.

[NoMoreRepugs]

50. Stinky these people live down the street from you and are in the car next to you...

goobers and gomers are across this country and don't care a lick about what kind of country and Planet they will leave for future generations.

[lunatica]

51. We have become Idiocracy

[lapfog_1]

53. my nephew

an Iraq war vet... is voting for Trump. He hates Muslims, and is deathly afraid of Democrats taking away his guns.

He voted for McCain and for Romney... for the same gun "reason". Never mind that Obama did nothing to try to take his guns away.

Anyway, he is one...

[phazed0]

54. When you have no good choice, expect volatility. nt

[MisterFred]

58. Meh. There's not that many Trump supporters.

The fact that he has a chance to win is more of a combination of 1) How few Americans actually participate in politics on a regular basis and 2) How unpopular Clinton is.

[leftstreet]

67. +1

[Jopin Klobe]

59. "Who ARE those people?" ...

... cattle ...

... being led to slaughter ...

... dragging this country and us with them ...

[MisterP]

76. yeah, the TPP's gonna destroy what's left of the economy and he already is threatening Iran!

[One_Life_To_Give]

77. Because the benefits don't flow fairly

His supporters don't come from the successful or well educated. They come from the ranks of the poorly educated and underemployed. That group has been disproportionately impacted by Globalisation. Hardly surprising they would latch onto an Isolationist as their savior.

[Person 2713]

79. Near 14 million people so far voted for this facist freak

Dumbfucks in every state.

[doc03]

81. What do they say something like 45% of the people will vote either

Republican or Democrat no matter what. The 10% in the middle decide the election.

[billhicks76]

88. Need To Have Inspired Opposition

Hillary better get on it. Most people, especially independents who don't buy into the left vs right game, aren't excited to have the same families residing in the White House. Maybe she could promise to end Telecom Immunity, scrap the 1996 Telecommunications Act and restore Glass/Steigal. That would motivate those in the middle.