Serious question: Is there a significant increase in cops' use of deadly force or . . . . .

[Stinky The Clown]

. . . . . are we simply hearing about them more often?

My intent in this post is NOT to go after cops so please don't crap on my thread, okay?

[AgerolanAmerican]

1. yes there is

every year we set a new record for citizens killed by police

[Stinky The Clown]

2. Thanks. I have to wonder a bit about that stat.

In raw numbers it is up. But is it up as a function of some other equalizing measure. Like deaths per 100,000 persons, or 100,000 arrests, or some such.

Not intending to argue with you. Just thinking out loud.

[Recursion]

10. Except we have no idea. Data only started getting collected very recently

And police departments still hold it like it was diamonds.

[1StrongBlackMan]

3. From my experience, there has NOT been a significant increase ...

in police violence ... we are just hearing about it more (i.e., cell phone cameras, people reporting it ... and being believed).

[Journeyman]

4. Yeah, I agree, that's the big one: people being believed . . .

Cell phones and social media, obviously, are the driving force in more reportage, and with each incident, it seems, it becomes just a little easier for the public-at-large to accept that the reports have a measure of truth.

[1StrongBlackMan]

5. Andlet's not forget the racial component ...

the cameras are recording white whites getting abused ... which makes it easier FOR THEM to believe it's been happening to Black folks ... since it reinforced their case.

[Journeyman]

8. That's why I was so pleased when "The Guardian" began their website on "The Counted" . . .

and have tried to document all the people killed by the police throughout the US each year.

It's one thing to hear that 305 of the 1146 killed were Black. It's quite another to see that 582 were White. Looked at as a percentage of each demographic, the numbers are deeply disturbing. But for Whites to see that they, too, are targeted by the police, was even more enlightening.

And with the ability in that database to filter by armed vs unarmed, age, gender and State, it provides a means to truly appreciate the extent of the problem. I believe we can all agree, in a nation of 300+ million, there will be some unarmed people killed by the police. And some of those deaths can probably be accounted for. But to know it's over 225 people in a single year, that puts a spin to the number that even the most obtuse must acknowledge needs to be confronted.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database#


(I understand the FBI is supposed to be building a similar database but I'm not very hopeful we'll see it anytime soon.)

[Major Nikon]

11. My grandfather was a cop during the depression

He told me lots of stories of very violent beatings he knew about. The cops used clubs and quite often the result was the demise of those who were apprehended. As soon as he was able, he transferred out of patrol duty. Back then people just thought if you got beat to death by the cops, you probably had it coming and nobody really cared much about it except obviously the families who were affected.

[LeftyMom]

6. A big part of the problem is that there aren't reliable statistics.

You can't solve a problem you don't measure, and the feds have studiously resisted tracking police violence in a serious way until very recently.

[braddy]

7. Cops used to be alone more, and used to fight rather than shoot.

Until the late 1960s or so, cops used to have size requirements and they carried billy clubs, and they were more willing to meet a man head on and beat him down, rather than shoot him, and they couldn't quickly call up a dozen or two other cops.

I don't recall people being afraid to call the cops because uncle Harry was drunk and angry, or because the kid with mental problems was threatening people with a pair of scissors, but today people die when we call 911 to give us a hand.

Cops seem to be trained to gun down any and all possible threats to them when they first arrive, and then interview the survivors to find out what was going on.

[Major Nikon]

12. Billy clubs killed a lot of people

[braddy]

15. Billy clubs can be rough, but not as rough as this shooting every threat until the gun is empty.

Have you noticed that today they also don't like to leave any wounded alive, if they can help it.

Today they don't risk a fight, today merely holding a knife is a death sentence, even for women, and old people, and even if a half dozen 200 pound cops are there with all their various non-lethal weapons.

[Major Nikon]

17. They had guns back then too

Lots of people also got shot, but many cops beat people to death for simply mouthing off or running from them.

People dying on their way to jail is nothing new.

[braddy]

18. I remember those days, and I don't remember people being so casually gunned down as they are today.

[Major Nikon]

20. Not so many cell phones back then

Only one side of the story got told.

[braddy]

21. We don't need a cell phone to tell us about cop shootings, we had newspapers to do that.

[Major Nikon]

22. As I said, only one story gets told that way

Back then police even got away with mass murder on numerous occasions. Lots of people wound up in mass graves and often nobody even knew how many died. Labor day actually commemorates the death of dozens of union strikers, killed by law enforcement during the Pullman Strike. In 1921 law enforcement in Tulsa, Oklahoma along with deputized civilians burned the whole black section of town to the ground and mowed down people with machine guns. Body counts vary from 55 to 300 and thousands were rendered homeless. Newspapers just didn't do a whole lot of good back then. Often they supported law enforcement and often the few LEOs who were indicted were subsequently acquitted of all charges.

[braddy]

23. Which is off topic, I remember the 50s and 60s and saw police beatings and some in my

family were affected by such, but we didn't get these shootings that are the thread topic.

Now you want to say that police are not doing something different in all these shootings for no reason, including dogs, by going back to the early part of the 20th century and the strike wars?

I believe there is an increase of police use of deadly force on individuals, something that you clearly and passionately do not believe is happening.

[Major Nikon]

24. Off topic?

If you want to narrow the topic to a small segment of US history, which the OP most certainly did not, it just doesn't get that much better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Detroit_riot#List_of_deaths

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Newark_riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_assassination_riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_Augusta_riot

[braddy]

26. Now it's 1960's riots? How does your cell phone theory fit in with those?

So you clearly think that no, cops are not using deadly force more frequently.

It would be nice if you would stay focused more on individual cops and their interaction with the general public, since I think that was the intent of the thread.

[Major Nikon]

27. Which is off topic, I was specifically talking about cops getting away with mass murder

Which is certainly relevant to what the OP was talking about.

Then you inexplicably narrowed the scope to the 50's and 60's, why is anyone's guess as that sure as hell wasn't the intent of the thread.

Then I explained the police were still committing mass murders during that period.

Then you claimed the discussion is only about individual cops, why is anyone's guess as that sure as hell wasn't the intent of the thread.

I'm getting tired of you trying to artificially narrow the discussion and then complaining that's not what's being discussed by moving the goalposts again.

Enjoy continuing this discussion with yourself or someone else cuz I just ain't playing this game no mo.

[braddy]

28. I think you are way off topic, the thread is not about cops and "committing mass murder".

Here is the thread question. I take it to mean the increase in cop shootings, not cell phones and the internet giving us more information about police "committing mass murders". I haven't even seen those YouTube videos of cops "committing mass murders".

OP's question:
""Serious question: Is there a significant increase in cops' use of deadly force or . . . . .. . . . . are we simply hearing about them more often?
My intent in this post is NOT to go after cops so please don't crap on my thread, okay?""

[Recursion]

9. It's a great question and we have no idea because the departments sit on the data

We honestly don't know.

[procon]

13. I suspect the problems escalated with the hiring of so many exsoldiers.

Police departments have been transformed, and not for the better. The police are trained to protect and service, but a soldier is trained to kill the enemy. Unfortunately for us, the public, the citizens, and taxpayers, all to often the enemy is us.

[braddy]

16. How could there be more ex-soldiers today than in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, and 1970s?

In 1968 there were about 3.55 million of us on active duty, surely a lot of cops came out of the huge military of those decades.

[procon]

19. At a quick summary, maybe they took good paying union jobs

in the bustling manufacturing sector of the day, rather than take a riskier job as a cop. Population centers were smaller, so police dept probably were as well, and maybe the pay wasn't very competitive. Different eras with lots of variables, and not to argue with you, but that's my reply to the OP.

[Warpy]

29. The wannabes are the problems, IMO

You know, the guys who either were too chicken to join the military or who were kept in safe posts, far away from any fighting.

They always wanted to kick Arab butt and now they're on the police force, convinced they're an army of occupation against Americans.

Part of it is the drug war, they've been stuck enforcing a lot of really bad law for a really long time. Part of it is the escalation of police into a paramilitary force that began under Nixon. And part of it has got to be steroid abuse.

But yeah, this stuff is new.

[Downwinder]

14. That they don't keep records tells you something.

[1939]

31. In some ways, that was good

They would often administer some "street justice" and the kid learned, but never had a record to haunt him later in life.

[Lurks Often]

30. It SEEMS that way, but we lack the statistics to be sure

Social media, cell phones, the internet and the 24/7 news media certainly skews our perception of crime (along with a lot of other things). Bad news is good for ratings.

[moonbabygo]

32. There was a post

not too long ago about this topic. I shared my experience with the cops arresting my son in my house and how things could have gone so bad. I don't want to type it all out again, but I can't find it.

The point I was trying to make is, we had to be very submissive or things would have gone very bad