George Zimmerman is a good example of bad problem

[SecularMotion]

George Zimmerman is a moral outlier, a public danger and more than a little creepy. He is generating more grotesque attention by seeking to auction the gun with which he killed Trayvon Martin in 2012 as the black teenager was walking home.

In September, Zimmerman retweeted a photo of Martin's corpse. Last week, when he first listed his Kel-Tec PF-9 handgun for sale, he said: "I am honored and humbled to announce the sale of an American Firearm Icon."

Zimmerman's Wikipedia entry reads like a rap sheet — court-sanctioned anger-management classes, restraining order, domestic violence claims, allegations of threatening, at different times, both his wife and girlfriend with a gun. All this, of course, in addition to shooting dead a teenager walking through a residential neighborhood armed with a package of Skittles.

But Zimmerman has never been convicted of a felony. He's free to buy an arsenal of guns. And he's free to sell his wares on the Internet, without a background check, to any criminal or loon who comes along.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/opinion/national/francis-wilkinson-george-zimmerman-is-a-good-example-of-bad-problem-32fc2959-f4bd-3a0c-e053-0100007f-380060391.html

[moonbabygo]

1. May be it goes by states

but I thought if you have a domestic you could no longer have a gun. Maybe it is just CT

[hack89]

3. The problem is that Zimmerman has never been convicted

his victims keep recanting their accusations and he walks free.

[moonbabygo]

4. interesting

in CT once the state is involved the victim is no longer in charge. Meaning they can't recant because it now becomes the state VS the person accused. Once you are charged you have to turn over all you guns, should you have any and you can never get a license for a gun.

[hack89]

6. The problem is that if the woman is the only witness

then convictions are very hard to come by. Once the charges are dropped the accused gets his guns back - you have to be convicted to permanently lose your right to own guns.

[Blue_Tires]

2. k+r

[linuxman]

5. It's called due process.

No matter how much you dislike, despise, or otherwise hate someone, their rights (including the right to keep and bear arms) cannot be removed or denied without due process of law. He's not a felon. End of Story.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

7. Point taken, but you have to wonder how the prosecutions go if Zimmerman were black

You have to wonder how the media would have reacted to an African American selling a firearm that killed an unarmed white teenager.

[linuxman]

16. Seems everyone reacted poorly to Zimmerman doing so already.

Are you suggesting due process would be suspended if a black person were exonerated of the same charges as well?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

22. I'm saying they'd have never been exonerated.

..and in the event there was an exoneration, FOX and similar outlets would be going orbital over the gun sale.

[linuxman]

26. I don't seem to remember anyone going orbital over this...

http://www.decodedscience.org/roderick-scott-the-black-george-zimmerman-acquitted-of-murder/33569

[JustAnotherGen]

44. Oh - my parents did

That was a huge deal in Monroe County.

[malaise]

9. Unless your name is O.J. Simpson n/t

[linuxman]

17. What are you talking about? Serious question.

OJ was denied due process after beating his first felony a acusation?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

23. OJ Simpson got the best justice money could buy.

[uponit7771]

11. Not for black skinned people

[linuxman]

20. Bull.

[uponit7771]

21. Facts dispute your call of "bull"

[linuxman]

25. Were you too busy to bring any to your post?

[LanternWaste]

27. Much better spelling than your usual replies, yet still sourced as weakly as ever.

Much better spelling than your usual replies, yet still sourced as weakly as ever.

[bettyellen]

45. disgusting post- implying someone is a pedophile because they corrected your spelling?

Get a fucking grip.


"If you want to have a spelling contest, you should go find an elementary school. You know, if you're allowed within 500 yards of one. "

[MillennialDem]

13. Must be the most unlucky motherfucker in the world to have had to

shoot and kill an unarmed teen (under very suspicious circumstances) and to have allegations laid against him that he abused several girlfriends/wife (including threatening at least one with a gun) and getting shot at by someone else.

I mean it could happen and I'm not for taking away people's rights at all (if they're convicted, once they've served I think they should get all rights restored immediately), but if I had access to a 24/7 camera on his life, not only would I bet the farm he's committed several violent felonies, including murder - I'd wager dollars to donuts that he has (and I don't even like donuts).


I'd also wager dollars to donuts that he is involved in another violent altercation in the next 5 years. Allegations of domestic violence, someone starting a fight with or shooting him, him starting a fight with or shooting at someone else, etc. It's not bad luck that's his problem, it's George Zimmerman that's his problem.

That and I don't think owning a gun should be a right (or if it is, any weapon should be), but that's a separate discussion.

[linuxman]

19. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

It's a damn good thing people's rights and protections aren't at the mercy of your opinions, gut feelings, sensibilities, and suspicions.

He beat the charges in a court of law. We can talk about that particular detail until the rapture, but the fact remains that he is not guilty in the only sense of the expression that means anything when it comes to retaining all the rights and freedoms of any other citizen.

He's probably a bad person. That changes nothing in regard to his personal rights, nor should it. Not in his case, or anyone else's.

[MillennialDem]

24. When did I say that he should have been convicted based on my suspicions/gut feelings?

[linuxman]

30. You didn't, not did say you did, however,

Reread your 2nd paragraph. Can you see how it would look to the reader as if you're implying you have some sort of special knowledge that makes Zimmerman the exception to your first sentence in that paragraph? You say nobody should lose their rights without due process, then begin to theorize as to how he actually is a felon, despite all the facts. If your point wasn't at least leaning towards the fact that he's some special exception, I'm not sure where you were going with it. You surely had a point. Would you clarify your thoughts further for me?

[LanternWaste]

28. You're attributing a premise no one has made...

"That changes nothing in regard to his personal rights, nor should it. Not in his case, or anyone else's..."

You're attributing a premise no one has made.

Seems irrational, but petulance often compels us to do as much.

[linuxman]

33. You should read more before you post.

Starting with my reply.

Nice to see you eased up on that poor thesaurus, though.

You replaced it writing the way you think smart people talk, but it's slightly less annoying. Kudos.

[Rex]

41. You don't need to defend him or get all defensive.

Geez.

[406-Boz]

8. I'm surprised he's still alive

Never thought he'd last this long.

[PatrickforO]

10. I'm not sure I am convinced that Zimmerman is an outlier.

I think there are bunches of Zimmermans just waiting for 'permission' to come out of the woodwork. We see them at Trump rallies, certainly. To me, the biggest reason Zimmerman is NOT an outlier is what I've seen with Trump's campaign. Trump has, in effect, given the Kluxers, the skinheads, neonazis and other overt racists a 'safe place' to express their disgusting shit. To me, Trump rallies are filled with Zimmerman wannabes.

[MillennialDem]

12. *dons flame suit* I'm convinced this is why a lot of gun owners fight against any control and restri

ctions, because they know they have criminal backgrounds or are concerned they'd flunk the psych eval.

[Straw Man]

18. Define "a lot."

I'm convinced this is why a lot of gun owners fight against any control and restri

ctions, because they know they have criminal backgrounds or are concerned they'd flunk the psych eval.

And tell us why you're "convinced" that this is true. Then we might have something to talk about.

[turbinetree]

14. This is what really scary-------------the selling without a back ground check-------------------

"But Zimmerman has never been convicted of a felony. He's free to buy an arsenal of guns. And he's free to sell his wares on the Internet, without a background check, to any criminal or loon who comes along."

[Straw Man]

15. Rest assured.

"And he's free to sell his wares on the Internet, without a background check, to any criminal or loon who comes along."

That's false. See below, from the auction site's FAQ:

Guns bought online are never shipped to the consumers home, but instead, to a federally licensed gun shop. Selling guns online also requires a FFL-both parties must be licensed appropriately, in order for a transaction to occur. After purchase the online gun retailer will ship the firearm to the local gun dealer, where the consumer will pick it up in person.

At the time of pickup, the gun retailer will treat the transaction like one made in a store. Background checks, additional fees, and waiting periods will be administered according to the state's particular gun laws. There are no shortcuts when buying or selling guns online. All of the appropriate steps are followed in accordance to state laws for a transaction to occur.

--http://www.unitedgungroup.com/auction/faqs

[turbinetree]

38. Well that's good-------------------but-----------------

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/want-buy-gun-without-background-check-armlist-can-help

http://smartgunlaws.org/universal-gun-background-checks-policy-summary/

[Straw Man]

42. Armslist is not an auction site.

It's the online equivalent of an newspaper classified ad. The transaction is not processed there. And that's not where Zimmerman chose to list his gun.

If Armslist is such a hotbed of high-volume criminal sales, I would suggest that is is fertile ground for some FBI and ATF sting action. It's as if drug dealers were advertising on television: extremely low-hanging fruit.

[turbinetree]

46. Armlist is the selling of guns ------------------it doesn't take much according to the article

But since this character was involved in a shooting----------------the morality of the auction company says what exactly -------------------it was about the commission of the sale------------------nothing more or nothing less.
They should have refused---------------all of them

Mother Jones-----------------

"There's good money to be made in selling guns to people without background checks. In 2010, former FBI agent John Shipley was sentenced to two years in prison for working as an unlicensed gun dealer, buying and selling guns online. Shipley bought dozens of guns, many of them legally from licensed dealers, and then resold them online for more than $118,000. One of those guns, a .50-caliber Barrett sniper rifle, later turned up at the site of a narco-trafficking-related bloodbath in Mexico."


https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-answers/firearms-qas


Have a good day

[Straw Man]

47. More or less.

Armlist is the selling of guns ------------------it doesn't take much according to the article

So is the daily newspaper. So is Facebook. So is Craigslist, whether they know it or not. There's a difference between providing a bulletin board and actually processing a transaction. Auction site purchases are legally binding contracts; negotiations are conducted and sales finalized onsite, between registered buyers and sellers. Bulletin board sites, on the other hand, provide phone numbers and e-mail addresses of sellers. That's all. There's a huge difference.

But since this character was involved in a shooting----------------the morality of the auction company says what exactly -------------------it was about the commission of the sale------------------nothing more or nothing less.
They should have refused---------------all of them

I expect companies to abide by the law. Nothing more or nothing less. If they wish to go beyond that ethically, more power to them. Gunbroker did; they blocked the listing. United Gun Group is a new site that hardly anyone had heard of before this. I suspect they were operating under the principle that there is no such thing as bad publicity. This whole little farce gained them exposure that would have taken years to achieve the normal way.

"In 2010, former FBI agent John Shipley was sentenced to two years in prison for working as an unlicensed gun dealer, buying and selling guns online."

Wait -- I thought people could buy and sell on the Internet with no background checks and with impunity. I guess not, huh?

[Hoyt]

29. Zman is just another armed racist, yet we coddle these miscreants because the 2nd Amendment, and all

And, he's an "artist."

[linuxman]

35. So besides the first and the second, what other parts of the bill of right hurt your sensibilities?

It's never just one right these folks don't care for. Then again, gun control is hardly about the guns at all, but rather the second word in the name.

Is it classless and racist? Hurtful and tacky? If yes, then that's the sort of thing the 2nd exists to protect. It isn't there to protect speech everyone agrees with. If it were, we wouldn't even need it.

[beevul]

36. Allow me to present evidence.

So besides the first and the second, what other parts of the bill of right hurt your sensibilities?

Allow me to present evidence:

And anyone who bid on the gun ought to be under surveillance -- 2nd, 1st or any other Amendment be damned. - Hoyt.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141455343#post7

And there, hes talking about someone who bought a gun and was background checked.

It's never just one right these folks don't care for.

That certainly seems to be the case, as the above link is an example of.

[linuxman]

37. Holy shit . Not surprising, though.

I'm going to drop the word "gun" entirely and just call them what they are. Controllers.

[Hoyt]

39. From a gun toter who has admitted he's afraid of people on the streets.

[Hoyt]

40. As far as people, like yourself, who carry gunz on city streets and promote lax gun laws, I think

you misinterpret the Constitution. Worse, you have no consideration for the 93+% who would never stoop to walking among people with a gun in their pants. Your support of Zman speaks for itself.

[Heeeeers Johnny]

32. This part is misleading...

And he's free to sell his wares on the Internet, without a background check, to any criminal or loon who comes along.

Yes, he can offer any of his firearms for sale on the Internet, but unless the seller and buyer are residents of the same
state, the sale would have to go through an FFL and a background check conducted.

A far as the particular firearm he was selling goes, I find it highly unlikely that any "criminal or loon who comes along"
is going cough up the price Zimmerman was asking for.

[Straw Man]

48. True.

A far as the particular firearm he was selling goes, I find it highly unlikely that any "criminal or loon who comes along" is going cough up the price Zimmerman was asking for.

$100,000+ for a used Kel-Tec PF9? Yeah, you'd have to be pretty loony. That's at best a $200 gun.

Methinks Zimmy overestimates his historical importance. The cynic in me says that no actual sale took place, and that this was just hype by a new auction site to drive traffic their way. They may have thrown him a few bucks to keep his mouth shut.

[Rex]

43. Most of the world believes he murdered a teen over a bag of skittles.

So he can go fuck himself twice over.