Free Trade- just what can we live without?

[larkrake]

Last edited Tue May 17, 2016, 04:09 PM - Edit history (1)

I can not think of one thing I need from China, Europe? Japan? Africa? South America? Why do we let other countries sell us inferior crap tariff free?

[Jackie Wilson Said]

1. Today you desperately need them, but it doesnt have to be that way.

There is no political will in this country to do anything about it.

As right as Bernie is on this, which is the main reason i support him, this and other economic issues, it will never be allowed again.

Manufacturing is gone unless we make it LEGALLY unprofitable to do it elsewhere

[larkrake]

10. Because these deals line pockets in a big way, Congreess and lobbyists gain- we lose

[Hoyt]

2. If you are willing to pay more for autos, electronics, etc., that are inferior, you can buy here.

The days of Nationalism, America First are over. Best to get used to it.

[larkrake]

7. Inferior today, agreed

But if we stop these tariffless trade deals, we can reboot manufacturing here, which will spark competition and betterment of goods, provide jobs,specialized education and the sky is the limit. The way is it going, all creation is from other countries. We pay but have no income. Will Americans become just consumers in trade for policing the world? That is all I see in our future.

[Hoyt]

20. Sure, let's cut ourselves off from the rest of the world and see how that works.

[larkrake]

27. They could pay tariffs and stay in trade with us

[Hoyt]

31. Ever heard of a trade war? Look it up. Nationalistic America First won't work nowadays,

and it shouldn't.

[larkrake]

39. I am proposing Fair trade, instead of free, and not giving Corporations immunity to our laws

[Rex]

3. A lot of us already live without.

There has been no cost of living increase in workers wages for 40 years. A lot of the former middle class, millions of families, have learned to go with what they can afford and forget the rest.

[larkrake]

9. This is true, and those trade countries do tariff their goods

I too do without, and spend alot of effort dodging potholes because there is no $$$ for infrastructure

[KamaAina]

4. Similar thread here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027827101

[larkrake]

8. Thanx, very informative

[bemildred]

5. Less is more. nt

[MH1]

6. I'm pretty sure I need coffee from one of those places.

Tea is sometimes nice, also.

[KamaAina]

11. Ever hear of Kona?

[MH1]

14. Yes, but I learn something new every day

I actually didn't know it was from Hawaii.

Realistically, if every coffee drinker in the US decided to drink only kona coffee ... wouldn't work out well.

[Hekate]

68. LOLZ. I grew up on O'ahu and never did care for Kona Coffee.And have you seen the price these days?!

I love coffee. Trader Joe's carries a very good selection, and sometimes I even go to Peet's. But the cost per pound of Kona is so much that even if I loved the flavor I'd be buying it by the quarter-pound only very occasionally.

I sure hope the farmers and workers are being compensated accordingly.

[KamaAina]

69. More likely than not, you were getting a "Kona blend".

10 percent Kona, 90 percent Pele knows what: probably stuff scraped off the hull of a cargo ship from Brazil.

[larkrake]

76. LOL, sadly some coffees have alot of fillers

[larkrake]

75. It does cost more. I wonder what is starbucks coffee source.

I dont think fair trade would stop coffee importers

[larkrake]

12. Kona coffee is good enough, our other satallite offshoots also grow coffee and teas

One can always buy via internet- coffees, cigars, swiss clocks. A trade deal doesnt serve the populace from what I see.

[1939]

15. If I buy cheap Chinese shit from Walmart or I buy it from Amazon

it doesn't make any damn difference. What makes a difference is what poor assembly line worker got wages from making it.

[larkrake]

17. Yes, unions are vital to manufacturing

Any US company paying distressed wages overseas for profit, should pay a heavy tariff to sell to the US. We must stand firm against this.

[AngryAmish]

66. Puerto Rico.

Grow it there.

[Corporate666]

13. If you want to go with USA only...

You have to give up your TV

Your mobile phone

Your internet connection

Your laptop/iPad/desktop

Much of the food you buy

Most of the clothes you wear

Pretty much every single electronics device you own/use

and MUCH more.

[larkrake]

16. Oh WOW

I gave up my TV, 20 min of ads interrupting NCIS pissed me off, and Comcast is a succubus. National Geo and PBS and Smithsonian are US entities. Mobile phones are US made too, as is internet, computers, and our food is 90% junk we should not eat. I buy my veggies and fruits locally, meats too, buying a half steer at a time locally, and chickens grown locally. It is cheaper and I avoid preservatives and genetically poisoned food from Monsanto

The US is quite established in electronics, and competition would improve the longevity and quality of all digital modes. Given no choice, Toshiba, Samsung and Toyota would pay tariffs to sell to American markets.China sells garbage

Free market is self destruction with currencies and one sided tariffs in place

[Corporate666]

42. I don't mean to sound rude but you couldn't be more wrong

What cell phones are made in the USA?
What computers are made in the USA?
What internet backbone equipment is made in the USA?

The vast vast vast majority of all the parts inside any electronics device are made in Taiwan, China, Malaysia, etc. Which means if you want to use "made in the USA" as per the FTC's standards, you will be giving up your cell phone, your monitor, your iPad/iPhone, your car, your television, your internet connection, and just about every other electronics device you own.

Much of the food in this country comes from overseas, most of the clothing, most of the consumer goods, etc.

and the final nail in the coffin is that it's a known fact among economists that trade is good for economies. Consumer prices will increase more than wages would increase, meaning a huge net drop in purchasing power. In other words, our standard of living would drop substantially.

[larkrake]

71. Ma bell started communications (as in Graham Bell)

Fair trade would not stop cheaper components, but they can be made here if necessary. Paying 800 dollars for a phone is ridiculous, especially when it takes $5 to make

Our clothing is poor and lasts maybe 100 wears, forcing us to buy another. Americans are the worst dressed in the civilized world, and pay premium prices for crap. Textiles dont have to depend on imports that again, will not stop with fair trade.We don't grow silk, but wool and polyester is no problem, cotton is thriving here, rubber and plastics, not a problem

The automobile was invented here. Now computerized, we are forced to go to dealers for repairs, which are rarely done properly. Alot of the add-ons offered are just silly and marketing tools to justify doubling the price of the car. For decades we imported cars with tariffs, that wont stop. Toyota, Honda and Lexus are now manufactured here. They own the patents of those components, so make them here. Any foreign company who settles in the US creates jobs and stimulates competition.

Our food is grown here, including fruits and veggies, we feed the world. The only thing we lack is an adequate source of seafood, thanks to BP oil and Fukishima radiation, both corporate disasters from dismissing regulations.Yes, we do buy veggies and bananas from south america, but we have that resource in house. Imported is not cheaper and we end up with old refrigerated veggies.

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. Tariffs decrease competition; that's the point of them

That's what you're asking for - to decrease the competition by making goods from abroad less competitive. Now, that might mean more manufacturing jobs in the USA, but as a consumer, you'd have to be prepared to put up with less choice in the goods as a result. If the US manufacturing system is set up to distribute the extra profits it would make equitably between the workers, there might be a net benefit. the USA is not good at that:

It's the equivalent of a whopping $7,000 an hour – 350 times the typical worker's pay of $20 an hour, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) data – and that's just the average. Some CEO pay is much higher.
...
It's not even the norm for CEOs in other major economies. The ratio of CEO pay to average worker pay in neighboring Canada is 204, in Germany it's 147, in the U.K. it's 84, and in Japan it's just 67.

http://moneymorning.com/2013/04/19/ceo-pay-now-7000-an-hour-350-times-the-average-workers/#.UqX-hWRDtZc

[larkrake]

88. Yes, sadly the CEOs would vacumn up the profits, its the american way, in triplicate

[Turin_C3PO]

33. But couldn't that stuff be made here?

I understand it's not because of profit issues for the companies, but I believe we could make all that, why not? We would have to get most rare earth metals from Asia though, if I'm remembering right.

[Corporate666]

43. I don't think it's that simple

I own an electronics manufacturing company. I make stuff in the USA.

A lot (most) of the raw metal on the market is made in China. Most of the electronics components (resistors, capacitors, chips, LED's, etc) are made in China/Taiwan/Malaysia. The raw circuit boards are mostly made overseas.

Most people don't appreciate the cost difference. It's not 20% more in the USA. Most US manufacturers I know couldn't make stuff for even double or triple what the Chinese make it for.

And even if we came up with insular trade policies... it would be more economical for companies to make stuff overseas because the other 80% of the world economy that isn't the USA would still want to buy those low cost parts.

What would happen is that US Exports would be virtually zero - because who is going to buy a $1,500 USA made iPhone when the exact same iPhone can be bought for $600? Nobody would. And even though some claim that higher wages in the USA would offset the higher cost, there have been many studies on this that prove that it wouldn't happen. We would go back to the 1940's where you owned one TV for your house, one phone (no mobile phone), you took trips in the car vs. flying. You eat at restaurants maybe a few times a year. You buy beef for Sunday dinner.

So if we implemented huge tariffs on imports to make the prices high to compare with American-made products, all we would do would be to shut ourselves off from the outside world. We would be economically like North Korea. And other countries would implement tariffs on our stuff so our exports would basically be zero. We would lose the benefits of mass manufacturing (after all, the whole USA population is only 4% of the world) so companies would rather make stuff for 96% of the free market by locating in China/India and just importing stuff to the USA.

It would really drive our economy to ruins. I am not embellishing when I draw the parallel to N. Korea (or Cuba or Venezuela). Closed economies don't work - we'd have massive unemployment, inflation. It would be the great depression, but much much worse.

[larkrake]

89. Interesting breakdown, you make sense. are we then to become a Global entity,

giving up our foundation of being "great" and "empathetic" and the pillar of hope?

I know alot of people in the US who have been forced back to one TV, one phone, selective diets and driving vs flying. Tho I'm not proposing huge tariffs, fair trade isnt costly to corporations. When they spend less outsourcing, they dont lower prices for Americans, they quadruple it.

I believe US products are currently tariffed. As far as Massive inflation, we already have that, as well as massive unemployment- not on the scale that you mean, but with Clinton or Trump, it will get worse rapidly. I dont see jobs as we lose more and more manufacturing, I see jobs in infrastructure ( temporary), I see our kids going to Europe to get free College, and jobs. They wont return. If we lose our young, there is no future in America. There is no future offered our graduates today

The picture you paint has no solution. Shall we resume being apathetic? Let Dispair consume opportunity?

These new trade deals involve alot more than trade, it gives licence to destroy the world, serfdom, all the ***archys you can label it. Deregulation, destruction of air, trees, oceans, water, Corporate rule over governments, already here.

[Corporate666]

101. Well

I believe the fear about the future is vastly overstated and completely unfounded.

We have undergone many many revolutions. Back in the day, pretty much everyone had to farm to get enough food to live. The people that didn't farm supported the farming industry (like blacksmiths, coopers, etc). As our economy grew, others jobs popped into existence that never existed before... journalists, coach builders, tailors, cobblers, etc. Those jobs existed because the efficiency gained from advances in farming let one person create enough food for two people - allowing the second person to do something else and pay the first person to produce the food.

Think of all the people who build stage coaches, repaired them, drove them, maintained them. All that is gone. Think about all the people that built railways, trains, telegraphs - just about all of them are gone. Actually, the vast majority of jobs that existed 100 years ago are gone. But today we have computer programmers, dentists, car repair techs, dog groomers, HVAC techs, electricians, psychologists, financiers, brain surgeons and dozens of other jobs that didn't exist before. What happened is we basically found a way to more efficiently do the low end jobs and we increased employment on the high end.

The prosperity of the USA exists because we create value (create industries, jobs, companies, etc). That creates wealth, and we use that wealth to have other people do the stuff we don't want to do - just like when we outsourced farming to other people to free some of our people up to become journalists.

People worry about automation. I don't at all. I design and manufacture a lot of automation products. Automation increases efficiency and helps us move up-market. So it's true we won't really need as many people flipping burgers, or stocking shelves at Walmart, or driving taxis... but new jobs will be created as they have always been. We've transitioned through many revolutions and never had millions of people sitting around with nothing to do - it won't happen this time either. The most important thing is that we keep innovating, keep educating, keep developing.

People don't want to hear it - but that includes growing our industry as well as keeping people educated. If you do the latter without the former, we're screwed. I disagree with you that people will go to europe for an education. There are many state schools in the USA that cost $2,500 or less per year (such as the Univ of New Mexico, Univ or Arkansas, etc). The expensive American schools are leagues ahead of European schools - which aren't free - they mostly have tuition costs, and you always have to pay room/board. It's always cheaper to go to school in the USA... just not to go to a top-shelf school.

America will be just fine - so long as we don't turn off the tap of innovation. There is an energy revolution coming and we are leading it - and will continue to do so if we're smart (nuclear power is good. Electric cars are good. Battery manufacturing plants are good). We've been leading the high-tech revolution for decades and that shows no sign of slowing up. It's critical that we court emerging industries and make sure they happen here. So whatever the next big things are after IT/internet, medical, energy - we need to make sure they come here, or are started here.

That's one of the biggest reasons why it is such a dangerous game to go after business or to implement protectionist trade deals. It really has the potential to ruin our economy - luckily most politicians are smart enough to get that (I think, I hope), and business is powerful enough not to let anyone stand in their way too much.

[pampango]

18. California is bigger than most countries. Should it not trade with New York? How about with Canada?

People, tribes, regions and countries have been trading with each other forever. What is wrong with that?

Do you draw the 'self-contained areas' along national borders only? Why? If California or Ohio or Florida or Alberta or British Columbia in Canada could be self-sufficient, should they? Is the only reason that their countries/constitutions don't allow it?

I can not think of one thing I need from China, Europe? Japan? Africa? South America?

Then don't buy anything from them. What if another American does want to buy something from them? Does your preference trump theirs?

Why do we let other countries sell us inferior crap tariff free?

Because working class Americans rebelled against tariffs in the early 20th century in favor of progressive income taxes. Trump and the republican base want tariffs back as you can tell from the success of his campaign. Progressive countries don't operate that way.

Republicans brought back high tariffs in the 1920's (and lowered income taxes to help their 1% sponsors). Income inequality hit record highs by the end of the 1920's. FDR came in, lowered tariffs and they have been heading down ever since. If it were not for FDR you might not have to worry about "China, Europe? Japan? Africa? South America?" We would be a blissful island disconnected from the rest of the world - I guess.

[larkrake]

22. Is the US Progressive? I can in good conscience say we are in REGRESSION

Free trade has destroyed our manufacturing. Trade deals are not necessary for you to go online and buy from Canada, or Madagascar. The TPP and other deals allow our corps to go overseas, pay workers $2/hr and sell back to the US with no consequence, no taxes. We do not have to commit to other trade countries without getting any return.

This isnt the 20th century, we have evolved. Today I can get online and buy anything without my country being tied to unfair trade deals. The US isnt first in anything, isnt growing in any field but weapons' People, tribes, regions and countries did trade and should trade equally, but when one party pays a fee to buy, and the other gets it free, that is unbalanced..

Disconnection from the world is not even possible today. Dont be silly, but I prefer bliss over poverty and falling bridges.

FDR had no choice- he was pulling the country out of the depression. Lack of tariffs has done much to bankrupt us, thanks to Rageanomics and Bush borrowing to pay for 2 wars. Republicans kept giving subsidies to multinational corps, and cutting taxes so tell me, who or what will pay for the reconstruction of water lines, roads, bridges and ongoing drought that has hit half the country.

No, what we have been doing since Ragean is NOT Progressive- it is slow deliberate death.

[Corporate666]

45. Once again, you are wrong and have no idea what you are talking about

You need to learn at least a little about the subjects you speak as if you are an authority on.

Free trade is the reason you can go online and buy stuff from Canada or China without paying big fees to get it. Trade deals don't allow corporations to go overseas - they have always been able to go overseas and always will be able to - regardless of any trade deal. The trade deal simply reduces import fees to bring stuff back in.

Most of all, that benefits the consumer. Life is WAY BETTER now than it was 30 years ago. Largely because of the prosperity that free trade brings. It is an economic fact that trade is good for economies.

And the USA most definitely is first in many things. Medical research, space flight, electric vehicles, energy, software and applications, electronics, nobel prizes, highest rated universities, highest rated hospitals, inventions and many more things. And the silly idea that nothing is growing can be proven wrong by the fact that Tesla announced the Model 3 and took in several hundred thousand orders in a matter of hours/days.

Your life is provably better for trade deals. It is an economic fact. Denying this puts your squarely in the company of climate change deniers, evolution deniers, 9/11 conspiracy theorists and flat-earthers.

[larkrake]

56. I don't know where you get your information, I agree to disagree with you

Life is not better for a huge block of citizens. We have ridden the wave of technology and evolved, yes, but it hasnt improved the quality of life compared to other countries. Tesla sells a rich man's toy- so what has that to do with the economy? We all know that corporations make fortunes. Their economy is surging but it does not trickle down to the single mom who has to have 3 jobs to feed and house her kids.

When I buy something from Europe, Asia, others, I do pay a tariff- it isn't free trade, it is fair trade. I have no problem with that because is is better quality than I can get here.

Our Universities, Hospitals, Health care,energy are not number one, in fact, they are falling to the bottom swiftly yet we are forced to pay ten times as much for them than other nations.On top of that our wages are stagnant- all so CEO's can have their golden parachutes. The same CEOs who wrote the TTP and other trade deals now in the wings

Electric cars are good, but solar cars are far better. Other countries are chasing that tech rabidly, but the US has stifled growth leading away from oil, so our tech is falling behind. As far as software, apps and electronics, Asian countries far outpace the US.

Don't look now, but our country is not United in any way shape or form. Even a LOON like Trump can see that outsourcing has destroyed manufacturing. Our steel towns are wastelands, our farmers suffer. If we allow free trade through corporations manufacturing in 3rd world countries, we turn our backs, even abandon our own industries, farmers, creators, inventors.

I am not an authority on trade, but I have two eyes and six decades of personal knowledge, my father was head pathologist for Smith Kline Pharmaceutical Labs, and a Colonel in the army. My mother a Professor at an Ivy League, a grandfather who was a Logger, another grandpa a US Senator. I've lived all over the World except South America, so I have a few blatant facts to draw from.

When politicians say "Trust me", I do not trust, I research. When corporations write a free trade deal. I raise a red flag, and when companies out source where there are no workers rights, I boycott.

So we disagree, my friend, and you are entitled to your opinion, have a good day.

[pampango]

48. Of course the US is not a progressive country. But if we are to become one (which is our goal), why

not do what FDR did and what modern progressive countries do rather than doing the opposite and expecting that to work.

Free trade has destroyed our manufacturing.

No. We trade less than any country this side of North Korea. German manufacturing thrives with strong unions, higher pay than in the US and a level of trade that is 3 times that of the US.

If "free trade" destroyed manufacturing, Sweden and Germany would be a wastelands of poverty. They are not. Sweden trades twice as much as the US trades. Germany 3 times as much. They have trade agreements with 48 non-EU countries in addition to the 27 other EU countries (a total of 75) compared to the 20 countries with which we have trade agreements.

Lack of tariffs has done much to bankrupt us.

Again, if a lack of tariffs has done much to bankrupt us, why did FDR lower tariffs? To help "pull the country of of the depression". How did he plan to fund the New Deal if lowering tariffs would 'bankrupt us'? I'll tell you - by raising income taxes on the 1%. How do Sweden and Germany fund their safety nets? The same way FDR did. Not with tariffs but with high/progressive taxes.

I see a pattern in how progressive American presidents and progressive foreign countries handle trade and how they fund progressive government policies. Unless modern America is so 'exceptional' that we have nothing to learn from what FDR did back in the "20th century" and what modern progressive countries do, perhaps we should pay attention to them rather than trying to reinvent the progressive wheel.

Disconnection from the world is not even possible today.

Don't tell that to Donald. That's exactly the point of his walls, unilateral tariffs, travel bans and 'ripping up' all of our international agreements. Those are the kinds of policies that isolationists have always followed throughout history. Why is it 'not even possible today'? What is to stop a President Trump and a republican congress elected on his coattails) from doing what he says he will do? Such has happened before. Expecting that history cannot repeat itself because 'things are different now' is a mighty dangerous way of thinking.

Isolationism may be DOWN - 70 years of FDR internationalism will do that - but it is never OUT, as you can tell from Trump's popularity with republican voters.

Harry Hopkins (FDR adviser and an architect of the New Deal) interrupted FDR while he was dictating his Four Freedoms speech in January 1941 and told FDR that he should not say that the Four Freedoms apply "everywhere in the world" because Americans are not going to give a damn about people in Java".

FDR replied, "Well Harry. They are going to have to give a damn about people in Java from now on."

republican voters have proven that they don't give a damn about the "people in Java". Trump intends to test how far that sentiment goes beyond just republican voters.

[larkrake]

57. It is a different scenario. FDR didnt have 5000 bases all over the world, he did not have two wars

now 3 or 4, I lose count. He focused on this country through necessity to revive it. He pushed fair trade, not free trade. In his day the corporations were dynastys and newspapers, steel, coal and little else. We were isolationist lite in actuality. He stimulated by opening trade, a wise man. We had materials to sell then. Now we sell our resources even though they are needed here, all for profit.

I do not believe in isolationism, but it pisses me off that Corps are allowed to rape this country and not be heavily taxed. As written,free trade pacts allow that.

[pampango]

62. You may believe that FDR's views are irrelevant now. We do not agree. And progressive countries

today govern much the same way that FDR did - low tariffs, lots of trade, high taxes, strong unions, good safety nets. In their minds it is not a "different scenario" at all.

He pushed fair trade, not free trade.

We support the greatest possible freedom of trade and commerce.

We Americans have always believed in freedom of opportunity, and equality of opportunity remains one of the principal objectives of our national life. What we believe in for individuals, we believe in also for Nations. We are opposed to restrictions, whether by public act or private arrangement, which distort and impair commerce, transit, and trade.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=16595

Define that as 'free' or 'fair' as you wish. The quote is from his 1945 State of the Union speech. In FDR's experience, national governments tended to invariably raise tariffs on foreigners to protect their own. When every country did that, trade died. FDR wanted to avoid that in the post-war world.

What he did push for was international cooperation in the governing of trade in the form of the International Trade Organization which had FDR had proposed in the summer of 1944. The ITO would have governed the rules of trade and taken that responsibility out of the hands of national governments.

I consider the ITO to have been a structure for 'fair trade' since it would have enforced (through neutral arbitration) standards on labor rights, full employment and business regulation. Unfortunately, republicans did not like the loss of national sovereignty that went along with the ITO governing trade rules (or perhaps they just did not like the 'fair' aspect of the ITO's trade rules). It took Truman several years to negotiate the ITO. It was eventually signed by 48 countries but republicans had gained strength in congress by then and blocked it from ever being voted on.

[larkrake]

81. No, Republicans prefer giving that power to Corporations who use child labor, desolate wages

or slave labor with no regulations whatsoever as to pollution, benefits, hour restrictions. I see the immorality of these practices. You could say my stand impairs their view of commerce and trade.

I wish the ITO had passed. Now we have a bigger, more lethal problem. We are saying similar things, now fathom that many trade countries tariff US products today. Our idealism doesn't float when countries say we can afford it, they can't.

Our trade with China has to be political because their products suck. TPP excludes them for a reason.They own our debt thanks to Bush

[pampango]

103. IF the US returns to the policies of FDR/Sweden on labor rights, taxation, regulation and safety net

AND THEN too much trade ('free', 'fair' or any other kind) harms our middle/working class, I will be the first in line (well, second after you) to push to cut back on trade severely.

UNTIL THEN I have no reason to believe that our paltry amount of trade (1/2 of Sweden's, 1/3 of Germany's) is the cause of the economic problems of our 99%. I will stick with my belief which, IMHO was shared by FDR and is shared by Sweden, that these problems are caused by our abandonment of FDR's principles on labor rights (now we have 'right-to-work'), taxation (was high and progressive, now low and 'trickle-down'), regulation (FDR regulated, we deregulate) and the safety net (stronger to shredded).

I will not advocate cutting trade now as an alternative to fighting for what FDR believed in and accomplished, just because it sounds good and seems popular if history shows that it will not work.

FDR did not worry as much about the Mexicans and the Chinese - or any other foreigners - as much as he did about the American 1%. Sweden does not worry as much about the Chinese and whichever poor country takes the place of Mexico on their right wing's list of poor boogeymen than they do about controlling the Swedish 1%.

I wish the ITO had passed.

Agreed. And it is never too late to do the right thing.

TPP excludes them (China) for a reason.

The TPP excludes them for 2 reasons. 1 - They don't want to be in it because it has labor and environmental standards (though they have turned out to be fairly weak) that they have repeatedly said work against their competitive advantage. 2 - Obama has repeatedly said that he does not want Chinese standards to dominate international trade and that China can only join in the future if it adopts these better standards. China is not willing to do this, at least for now.

They own our debt thanks to Bush.

China holds 8% of our debt. Japan has 6%, the UK 2%, Brazil and Taiwan about 1% each. Americans hold about 70% of the debt.

[larkrake]

29. sorry Pamp, please learn to digest what I said. The US is the victim of free trade

And if the sociopaths controlled by profit margins run this county, it will no longer be a country. Trade is important, free trade mega deals are money makers for the 1% and destroy our quality of life.

Or are you a Capitalist ?

[karadax]

19. Most Tilapia comes from China.

As do Scallops, Clams and Oysters. If you like seafood be prepared to pay more.

[larkrake]

26. True. Since Fukishima and the BP spill, we are sorely lacking seafoot fit to eat

Doesnt the Northeast harvest crustaceans? We will need a source for whitefish as well. We are already paying 50% more for seafood. I am getting my fix on farmed salmon. Our fishermen would get better pay, thats for sure.

[alarimer]

55. Plenty of seafood out there, some better managed than others.

A lot of blue crab comes from Chesapeake Bay (haven't you ever heard of Maryland crab cakes- it's practically the state food); scallops, oysters and clams all are harvested here as well. Oysters were transplanted all over the northeast; they don't grow where it is too cold, but there are viable populations in Long Island Sound.

Here is a link to the New England Fishery Management Council, for federal fisheries:

http://www.nefmc.org/

Also Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission (it operates in cooperation with state fisheries, primarily those that cross state boundaries:

http://www.asmfc.org/

There are similar organizations all over the country.

[alarimer]

53. This is not really true

Tilapia is farm-raised around the world (native to Africa), including the US. What you see in the stores may not be from the US, but it is usually labeled. Oysters are in fact native to the US and are a mainstay of the Chesapeake Bay, but harvested from Long Island to Texas. I should know, I work in fisheries. Scallops, clams are also harvested in the US.

I would patronize local fish markets; you are more likely to find local seafood there and it's fresher, especially if you are near the ocean. Inland, well, you probably have to make do with what you can find at Trader Joe's, which probably is imported. You can always ask. Grocery stores may or may not carry a lot of local seafood. Much of that is frozen. But it is almost always labeled with country of origin.

[larkrake]

92. Fish farms are an exciting industry, that requires live people to manage

The oceans are depleated, I read that krill is dying off and fishing is getting hard. Add temp and current changes and farming fish stablizes the market, costs are lower, but you get clean fish.

I wasnt sure about scallops, thanks for sharing your knowledge of you field. How about white fish, is that all iceland and greenland? or do we dabble in that?

[hack89]

21. Because we want to sell our stuff to them? Nt

[larkrake]

24. We dont sell much to them , the exception being war planes and weapons of course

I think we sell corn worldwide. We could do that without giving corporations a free ride, can't we? I think since no one will deal with Monsanto, we pretty much sell corn one to one with individual countries

[Corporate666]

44. You couldn't be more wrong - you just have no idea what you're talking about

We export over $1.5 trillion per year, #2 in all the world.

We don't export cheap electronics and low-priced junk. But we DO export machinery, electronics devices, spacecraft/aircraft, vehicles, oil, medical equipment, plastics, medicines, chemicals and much more.

[larkrake]

86. you are right, absolutely, sorry I was so casual in my reply. We used fair trade doing it, so why go

[hack89]

49. You are clueless

we export billions of tons of agricultural goods annually.

[larkrake]

87. I already said we feed the world, we are both correct

[hack89]

54. We export $140 Billion in agriculture products annually.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/220767/total-value-of-us-agricultural-exports-since-2000/

[Hekate]

84. Sorry, larkrake, but you really truly have no clue. Please learn.

[Texasgal]

23. Fresh Produce.

So much of it comes from South America.

We need to be willing to ask ourselves if we could live without bananas and stawberries in the winter? No lettuce or cabbage in the summer?

It's a question worth asking in my opinion.

[larkrake]

25. Hawaii, Puerto Rico, I'm not sure about Guam, but wow would they flourish

if we used our satalite resources, saving on transporting too, and getting taxes.Strawberries are Californias thing, as are dates, oranges, kiwis, all the citrus, and many veggies year round.

[Texasgal]

98. Unfortunatly I think it all comes down to cost.

Would people be willing to pay for strawberries in the winter when places in Mexico provide them year round at a reasonable cost?

Produce is a huge industry. It's all about the money. *sigh*

I live in central texas, so we can grow alot of things. My little condo has a small patio back yard. I container garden. Mainly tomatoes, green peppers, cucumbers and a small amount of carrots. It's a very small place and a kind of small hobby. I still have to buy produce though.

[Rex]

30. We save a lot of money by growing our own vegetables.

Granted it is seasonal, but it provides for several families and there is always surplus to give to neighbors.

[larkrake]

38. I agree with you, I'm always going to neighbors to give them my extra tomaos, zucchini

and I live in a 2nd story apartment with just a balcony. Sprouts are so easy to grow, peas, herbs with minimal care- just a spritz now and then. I cant eat it all. In Colorado, mine is seasonal.

[jwirr]

72. Us to. I am old enough that I have taught my kids and theirs

to can and preserve for the winter. We have not been able to completely support any of the family on this method but it does help to subsidize our budget a lot.

[Turin_C3PO]

34. True, we'd have to go back to seasonal eating of produce...

and jar/can fruits we wanted out of season. It wouldn't necessarily be bad but like, you say, people need to ask themselves if they can deal with it.

[larkrake]

37. I prefer frozen, there is no waste from forgetting its in the back of the fridge, and it is

frozen fresh, not turned to cardboard in a refrigerated truck. Is it my imagination, or is fruit tasteless these days?

[Texasgal]

99. If you are not freezing it

yourself from your backyard then most likely your frozen peas are coming from another country.

[cheapdate]

28. I'm with you 100%.

[Lancero]

32. It isn't the needs the drive trade, it's the wants.

A lot of the wants though 'could' be manufactured in the US.

The only thing's we'd need to import from other countries would be various foodstuffs really. Coffee and chocolate pop to mind immediately as wants that'd have to be imported (Though I suppose many would say that coffee is a need rather then a want) since neither can be grown here in the US in signifigant enough quanity to meet demand. A number of fruits and vegatables would need to be imported as well when they're off season.

[larkrake]

35. we are good on veggies, but fruit is limited to hawaii and our southern islands

The south has such rich soil, but corps like Monsanto wont allow more small farmers, in fact they are killing off our farmers now. Our south is a desolate wasteland,it would be nice to put them to work.

Florida, Georgia, so Carolina have such opportunities for growing more peaches, bananas and other hot house fruits, but Corps have a monopoly now. Such a waste

[GulfCoast66]

52. You really are clueless

I work in the field of agriculture in Florida and was content to let you ramble on about subjects that are not in my area of expertise.

I must say that your ability to synthesize so much crap into a few paragraphs and still get in a Monsanto dig is impressive.

[larkrake]

90. Sorry, but it is fact that many countries have banned Monsanto

Not to mention their bullying our independent farmers, suing folks when the wind sends their seeds into crops. Do you use genetically altered food in your work? I'm not trying to impress you, in fact I'm horrified . The only thing I am an expert of is horses. I have lost a few to GMO grains, so yes, I am against Monsanto. Dead intestines, blistered stomachs tend to prove they were murdered.

[GulfCoast66]

93. I'll bite

It's been years since working with horses. Were those horses fed commercial feed or straight grain? I assume you were not feeding straight corn what with the risk of mold and all. Moldy corn killed one of my uncles horses. And you cannot tell by looking at the corn, you would have to tested in the lab. The horses I've dealt with were fed commercial feed and sometimes oats. Again this is been 30 years ago and the memories is not what it used to be.

I use GMO at work and probably had some with supper as I ate at a Mexican place. But then again I trust science.

[larkrake]

96. I hand mix barley, oats and corn. Mold effects the nervous and pulmunary systems

Its moot, pathology revealed roundup in the organs. Our coop changed their corn source and the deaths stopped. I believe in science. When an experiment fails, science owns up to it, as in the shots given to pregnant women that produced deformed children, Failure is the mother of science, science doesnt have rigid lines, it learns. When a corporation or pharma says you are safe, while knowing better, that is criminal.

So, yes, I am against Monsanto. there may be other GMO companies that dont incorporate toxins, but I dont know of any.

But we are getting off topic: free trade.

[GulfCoast66]

97. Thanks for the primer on horse feed

That is why I like this site. An expert on everything

Free Trade- pretty much for it.

[larkrake]

36. I have to agree on the chocolate.

I have lived in Germany, Holland and Switzerland- but again, order via internet

[TransitJohn]

40. You expect the 1% to be cool with a reasonable profit

when outrageous profits can be had by manufacturing overseas?

[Corporate666]

46. Profit margins haven't shot up with overseas manufacturing - fact

consumer prices have fallen drastically with overseas manufacturing - fact.


Competition drives prices down - there were no Walmarts selling $20 desks, $200 large televisions, $30 music players, $10 sneakers, $10 pants, $5 t-shirts and $10 kids toys 30 or 40 years ago. All those things cost way more.

The consumers have been the primary beneficiaries of overseas manufacturing. This is an economic fact. That open trade helps the USA is also economic fact.

Thinking otherwise is no different then right-wingers denying climate change. It's just totally contrary to the facts and data.

[larkrake]

58. How naive of me

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. Stuff from Europe and Japan is frequently superior to US-made equivalents

but it's also more expensive (German cars, Swiss watches, etc). "Inferior crap" is likely to come from China (and that's mostly because the US factories that formerly made inferior crap got offshored).

[jmowreader]

47. I'm not too sure I could live without my job

Of all the equipment I use at work, only two pieces of it (my ECRM platesetters, made in Massachusetts) are made in the US - and those are full of imported components. If you can tell me where to get an American-made plate processor, I'm all ears.

[larkrake]

59. Necessity breed invention

[KamaAina]

61. That's just the sort of thing we should be making here

I could give a rat's behind where the cheap crap in Walmart is made. The American worker should be making higher-margin stuff like plate processors, whatever they are.

[Adrahil]

50. I really don't understand this desire for isolation.....

International trade is not going away, nore should it. We should be looking for ways to create fair trade, that benefits the people.

[larkrake]

60. I agree with you 100%

Corporate greed is our undoing, they dont want anyone else to benefit

[AngryAmish]

67. It is the desire to allow people to work with dignity

[larkrake]

73. yes, yet multinational and national corps are sociopathic

they just dont weigh the needs of their workers

[Adrahil]

74. You don't isolation for that. NT

[larkrake]

91. No, you boycott. I am not wanting isolation

[whatthehey]

51. Been tried. Failed.

You have to import competitive advantage.

China - today's economic juggernaut/boogeyman tried the self-strengthening isolationism bit in the 19th Century. The result being they lost the economic benefit and then the political rule of one of the world's most profitable ports for a century, suffered decades of economic and technical stagnation and internal poverty of epic propoertions.

Japan tried it for a couple of centuries until the Meiji Restoration in 1868. They regressed into a semi-feudal state with much of their population as subsistence farmers, then had to pour an enormous ratio of their GDP, possible only in a central command and control political structure, into rapid re-globalization.

The Russians tried it during the Soviet era. Lines for bread hours long. Two year waits for cars 25 years behind global comparisons. Terrible standard of living.

Isolationism fails. It fails more quickly and completely with instant communications and global mobility.

We have plenty of tariffs BTW - tens of billions of revenue from them. Could they be increased? Sure if you want an instant trade war that will throw export workers on the dole years faster than new domestic manufacturing can be built. You will permanently shatter export-based manufacturers like Caterpillar whose domestic market is a fraction of their output. You will create mountains of spoiled agricultural produce that cannot be sold domestically at any price. We don't need as much soy as we grow, and China can grow their own faster than we can build our own TV factories. You will cause foreign-owned corporations to pull out of the US because they cannot afford their own supply chain, leaving their employees out of work. At the same time as this you will cause massive inflation on everything that cannot be rapidly added to the US manufacturing base (do you know how long itytakes to plan, get permission for, build, equip, hire and train workers for a new manufacturing facility, at the same time everybody else is doing it? Inflation AND delay...).

Now it will get slightly better, after years that is. The necessities will indeed be produced here, and sure people will be hired. But the rustbelt 70s won't come back. We have robots, integrated software, instant communications now. Your plan just made everybody build new plants in an inflationary market. Were you investing in that area, how sensible would it be to choose a production model that relies on workers who will be making increasing wage demands because trhey are living in a society that just turned their back on competitive advantage and doubled its prices essentially overnight? Or would you do everything in your power to have a predictable stable cost base with maximized automation?

People on DU often bemoan income inequality, and with good reason. But we've seen nothing compared to what we would in the inflationary explosion of a trade war. Anyone without highly marketable skills and an ability to work in automated industries would have no chance of a job and face prices far in excess of what we see now relying on competitive advantage to maintain affordability.

[larkrake]

63. agreed, isolation isn't the answer, neither is throwing open the doors

We feed many nations. That will end in its own time as soil depletes, and accelerated storms kill crops. This phenomenon has effected the middle east and Africa. Global warming, droughts, mega storms. California and Australia are next.

Competition always lowers prices, stimulates economies. Progressive industries such as renewable energys, desalinization, vertical farming, can help the world evolve. Americans can create their own competitive companies, we always did until free trade. Jobs were plentiful then, no latch key kids, no gangs.

Automation has limits. I will never trust a driver-less car, plane or train, a robot nanny, boss, house appliances, security. Never ever.

The work force will evolve too, technicians to repair those automatrons, solar techs, mining for materials, fisherman, food growers.

Foreign companies do not need to buy trade products, they have their own sources at home, put it on a boat or plane.

I don't think fair trade would spark a trade war. And I don't see any hope of tariffs in TPP, do you? There may be standard tariffs on some products coming to the US- maybe coffee, liquor and tobacco, but I am ignorant of any tariffs on junk products or "toys"so please inform us , I really really want to know, especially when these deals are hiding their fine print from congress.

[whatthehey]

102. Well you asked...

So the searchable database is here.

https://dataweb.usitc.gov/scripts/tariff_current.asp

Just for fun I looked up our latest household import purchase of a fabric handbag (there are a depressingly large range of HTS codes for handbags but I think I got the right one) and found it had a tariff of 6.3%.

[Hekate]

64. Coffee. You can pry my coffee beans from my cold dead hands.

[larkrake]

65. Lol, the one addiction I can support

[mooseprime]

77. "free trade" is not synonymous with "trade"

no matter how diligently free trade adherents try to conflate the two. when i called one of my senators to complain about her vote on TPP, the staffer who took my call said "she feels trade is important." well duh, so does everybody. but it's not "free trade." "free trade" is used to circumvent labor laws.

[larkrake]

82. You are so correct

[Agnosticsherbet]

78. You are using a computer and the vast majority of those are made in China.

And Cell phones, Almost all in China or another foreign conutry.

China's Dominance in Manufacturing—in One Chart
It doesn't take expertise in economics to know that China manufactures a lot of stuff -- just look at the label on your computer, floor lamp, and shoes. But it's remarkable just how, three and a half decades after Beijing first launched market reforms, the country's dominance in global manufacturing endures. This fantastic infographic from the International Business Times, based on economic data from 2011, puts it in perspective:

Are any smartphones not made in China?
And I did not touch the vast amount of fruit other foods that are imported.

What kind of care do you drive.

Even American made cars use parts from various countries.

[KamaAina]

79. "Even American made cars use parts from various countries."

Funny thing about that. Most imported car parts come from Canada. You know, the country up north where everybody watches hockey and they all have health insurance? Well, guess what? GM, for one, prefers to manufacture as much as it can at its Canadian facilities because healthcare is so much less expensive there than here! As the saying goes, "What's good for General Motors is good for the country."

[Agnosticsherbet]

83. And we have free trade with Canada. The point being is that damn few of us are living without trade.

The OP's premise that he/she doesn't need it is incorrect.

[larkrake]

85. Of course, China isnt stupid. They know that manufacturing is the only way to go.

They use child labor, and 20 hr shifts, have no regulations which is why they have pea-soup air, they seized upon solar and will be the highest seller, they buy patents and inventors daily to get ahead of all other countries. That may be why Obama kept them and their allies out of TPP.

My car is a Saturn, not because it is american made, and I'm scouting a Ford for my next car. Again, fair trade would not effect imports of components.

The Moto X is made in America, with US components (cell phone) for $199 I'm sure there are others I dont know about.

Foods are imported, cant say they taste good, and we are capable of growing our own cheaper, and will be happy there is no listeria imported with foods. Many nations who sell us fruits and veggies have no regulations, that is scary and many people die yearly.

China is amazing, but have over population so have a very cheap labor force with no benefits to speak of. Our corporations, looking for a swift buck, sold our tech to them.

[larkrake]

95. Just a note we do make computers here- I googled

Levono, and apple is making the Mac Pro here. Baby steps, but a good trend

[Mnpaul]

100. We also make the processors here

and flash memory too. I know, I made some of that "junk" equipment that makes it possible.

[Warpy]

80. People are gonna look at you funny dressed in those squirrel pelts

because we no longer make adequate cloth here. Or shoes. Or replacement parts for cars.

The truth is that we've had some really basic industries offshored, mostly because CEOs don't like unions. We no longer make adequate goods to survive a big trade war, let alone a shooting war with a total embargo.

[larkrake]

94. well, arent we a lazy country?

We do make clothes, and they last for years- such as Pendleton and like companies. Cowboy boots, hiking boots. I dont wear heels or flip flops, but we have a ton of leather-does it all go to furniture and coats, or do me make boots too?