Prince was not trans, he is proof that men need not be masculine

[KamaAina]

http://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/04/23/prince-was-not-trans-he-is-proof-that-men-need-not-be-masculine/

As Prince is mourned by millions across the world, his life and artistry are rightly being embraced as unconventional and as boundary-pushing in many ways, including in terms of gender. But, whereas 10 or 20 years ago, a man like Prince would have been celebrated, in death, as someone who did not conform to gender norms, today he is instead being transed. And this is a problem....

Refusing to adhere to masculine or feminine stereotypes does not make one trans, it makes one human. Which is to say that, while humans may be biologically male or female, they are not biologically feminine or masculine. A man can wear a skirt and still be a man and a woman can have facial hair and still be a woman. If we start to say that anyone who refuses or isn’t able to perform gender in the way society teaches them to is “trans,” we assume that the gender binary is real — that a person who is big and tall and hairy and who acts aggressively or pursues sex with women is a man and a person who wears heels and dresses and is gentle and polite and is objectified by men is a woman. Anyone who strays from these norms is, then, proclaimed “trans,” leaving no room for the rest of us to exist outside of these stereotypes.

What would be far more progressive would be to, as a society, accept that people are people, and that they should be able to wear and behave however they like. It would be even better is the ideas of “femininity” and “masculinity” didn’t exist at all. If not feeling comfortable or fitting into societal rules for gender makes one “trans,” then we’re all trans to some degree — not just those men who prefer dresses and those women who don’t want to be the object of the male gaze, not just those of us who’ve never felt comfortable behaving as women are meant to behave, like me....

Let’s celebrate men like Prince and David Bowie and women like K.D. Lang and Patti Smith for refusing to fit into the stereotypical boxes patriarchal society laid out for them, not assume that those who rebel must, naturally, be the opposite gender or trans.

[Rebkeh]

1. I've always thought that's what made him so attractive and appealing nt

[narnian60]

16. Oh, yeah.

[Coventina]

2. K&R!!!!!!!!!!!

[closeupready]

3. And yet, non-rich feminine men continue to be penalized socially.

Let's not lie to ourselves and younger people who may not have the life experience to understand that despite the fact that US society is more tolerant than it once was, men STILL can't be feminine without being punished. Meanwhile, women can be as masculine as they want, and nobody notices.

[MH1]

6. Do you think your last line is really true?

I don't have it handy but I'm pretty sure I've seen a study that women who aren't "feminine" enough tend to be less successful in business, similar to how shorter men are less successful than taller men, and more overweight people tend to be less successful than people who better fit society's ideal.

I think in general, people are penalized socially for not conforming to accepted stereotypes. You may have a point that it is worse for men who appear feminine, than for these other groups. But that doesn't mean the issue is non-existent for the others.

[closeupready]

8. I don't have numbers, but I do think it's true.

I don't think punishment for gender nonconformity is non-existent for women, and I apologize if that's how it sounded. I just think it's a worse 'crime' when it's men who fail or refuse to conform to gender stereotypes.

[Maru Kitteh]

11. That's because women are still seen as "less than." Being called a woman remains an insult

in general society.

So it follows naturally that a man perceived as "more womanly" is also perceived as less than because that insult is then transferred to him.

A woman perceived as "more manly" is held at arm's length, viewed with discomfort and some distrust, but not as often viewed as a less competent person to the same extent as her non-conforming male counterpart. I believe you're right about that, and I think this is why.

[closeupready]

12. Yes, I think that's what I was trying to say, thanks.

[seabeyond]

33. I think it is really an angle we look at it in such an huge issue. Women that speak up and out are

penalized consistently for not being the woman that sits nicely without making waves. Women that do not adher to adornment to make self attractive. Tone. There are any number of penalties toward women that do not model what society says a "lady" should be.

Further, I am with both being defined and penalized for not meeting societies gender definition. In other words, I am on your side and this one, I do not think we need to be competitive who has it worse. It isn't geed for any of us.

[closeupready]

35. Always enjoy your contributions here, seabeyond. :-)

I listen to your intelligent words, and often find myself revising my ideas about things.

Have a great week!

[pnwmom]

26. The author of the piece would strongly agree with you.

She's just saying that forgoing conventional displays of femininity or masculinity, or displaying signs typically associated with the other gender, doesn't in itself make you transgender or gender dysphoric.

[MH1]

4. Thank you! and K & R!

I think this gets lost in the "trans" discussions. Some people just don't want to play the stupid gender roles as society defines them at this time and place. Some people just want to BE. (and be accepted, not labeled, for being who they are.)

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. Article is stupid, author has a history of transphobia

the existence of feminine men and butch women doesn't somehow mean that transgender identities are invalid (because gender identity isn't the same thing as gender presentation/performance).

[eShirl]

13. thank you. n/t

[pnwmom]

27. That's NOT what the author is saying. She isn't saying that ALL transgender identities or even most

are invalid.

She's just saying that refusing to be bound by society's conventions regarding "appropriate" gender display doesn't make you gender dysphoric or transgender.

And there is no evidence that Prince identified as transgender. Shouldn't he be the one to determine that? Not everyone else, on the basis of his clothing and make-up choices?

[Wounded Bear]

7. Definitions of 'masculine' and 'feminine' appearance are....

driven heavily by culture. Look around the world at traditional dress and you'll see that is pretty obvious.

[Katashi_itto]

9. He had some of the most beautiful women in the world at his beck and call.

Plus was just a great guy.

If I had just one finger full of his musical talent, I would be a happy fellow.

[Volaris]

49. I would settle for his arms.

For a skinny dude, that fucker had arms that were unbelievably ripped. All the guitar playing I suppose.

I'd kill my trainer for that man's arms lol

[Katashi_itto]

50. True

[erpowers]

10. Do Not Get Rid of Gender Identity

Let us not get rid of the ideas of femininity and masculinity. Let us just be more willing to accept people who do not fall into those boxes. Men who do not like sports, hunting, and/or cars should not be criticized. However, women who like sports, hunting, and/or cars should also not be criticized.

There is nothing wrong with the ideas of femininity and masculinity. There should just be freedom to not abide by all of the rules.

[romanic]

15. Agreed on all points.

[AZ Progressive]

18. Gender is a fact of human life just as it is a fact of the animal world

A feminine looking woman is a sign to men that she is fertile.

A feminine acting woman is desired in society because she will likely be a loving and caring mother.

A masculine looking man to women is a sign that he's healthy, has good genes, and can be a protector.

A masculine acting man is desired in society because he will likely be able to defend and protect his family, as well as be a good soldier if needed.


I'm all for gender freedom, but I can't deny the origins and function of gender.

[rusty fender]

20. Because masculine looking women don't

Look like they can be caring and loving mothers?

[seabeyond]

34. Wow, and here is the issue with it all. So, a masculine looking mother isn't nurturing?

[AZ Progressive]

37. I talked about the origins of gender, society makes the assumption that women being feminine are..

more nurturing. Doesn't mean its right on an individual or a case by case level, but its a general assumption that is made by society.

[seabeyond]

39. Firstly, we do not know the origins of gender. They have been made up over time, mostly to control

one gender. Secondly, you are promoting that we ought to hold to them even when proven that it is harmful and wrong, like suggesting if a woman doesn't look a certain way, it means she is not nurturing. Or that it is the woman's role to be nurturing and a man is unable, incapable, unwilling.

i simply do not agree that has any value in our society, and that it is simply incorrect, wrong, and untruth.

[pnwmom]

28. What do any of the things you mention have to do with gender identity?

For a woman to like sports or cars doesn't make her less likely to identify as a woman. And for a man to like design or cooking doesn't make him less likely to identify as a man.

[seabeyond]

40. And I really want to know what makes up this masculinity and femininity.

strength, character, principle... generally along that vein to describe masculine. Yet, women are all those things and who is to say I am not.

I just do not get the desire or need or willingness to get stuck in these things. There has to be pay offs, but I am not seeing what it is.

[davidn3600]

48. Social conditioning

Boys especially are taught at young ages that femininity is inferior. So boys avoid it like the plague, and also put down other boys who display it. What defines what is placed in each category? Society.

Look at it this way...when a girl displays masculine traits, she's what many call a "tomboy." She wrestles with the boys. She gets dirty, likes cars, plays sports with the neighborhood boys, etc.. This isn't considered bad or wrong because masculine traits are considered superior by society. The girl is "stepping up." But when it goes the other way, if a boy develops feminine traits, or likes things that girls typically like, it is viewed as a "step down." It's viewed as wrong. I've even known of parents who have even gone as far as take their boy to a psychologist thinking something is wrong.

Also realize something else....what is the worst insult you can make to a man? Call him a girl. Being perceived as feminine or being compared to a woman is an insult to men.

Society hasn't moved beyond this gender hierarchy.

[erpowers]

42. Society

It is not whether or not a person identifies as a man or a woman; it is society. Things have gotten better, but there are still some people who feel certain traits are more masculine and other traits are seen as more feminine. We as a society need to allow people to step outside thoses boxes.

[n2doc]

14. Prince was pure, distilled Sex

Controversy

By Prince

I just can't believe all the things people say
Controversy
Am I black or white, am I straight or gay?
Controversy
Do I believe in god, do I believe in me?
Controversy
Controversy
Controversy

I can't understand human curiosity
Controversy
Was it good for you, was I what you wanted me to be?
Controversy
Do you get high, does your daddy cry?
Controversy
Controversy
Controversy

Do I believe in god, do I believe in me?
Some people want to die so they can be free
I said life is just a game, we're all just the same, do you want to play?
Yeah, oh yeah
Controversy
Controversy
Controversy
Controversy
Controversy
Controversy

Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil
For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever
Controversy
Controversy
Controversy
Controversy
Love him, love him baby
Controversy
Controversy
Controversy
Oh yeah, yeah, controversy
Controversy, oh yeah
Controversy

Listen
People call me rude, I wish we all were nude
I wish there was no black and white, I wish there were no rules
People call me rude, I wish we all were nude
I wish there was no black and white, I wish there were no rules
People call me rude, I wish we all were nude
I wish there was no black and white, I wish there were no rules
People call me rude, I wish we all were nude
I wish there was no black and white, I wish there were no rules
Ah, yee hoo
He he, yeah, controversy
Oh yeah, controversy
Do I believe in god, do I believe in me?
Let me tell ya
Some people want to die so they can be free
I said life is just a game, we're all just the same
Don't ya want to play?

[AZ Progressive]

17. Prince became popular during a time that androgyny was popular in the music world

The 70's and 80's were definitely a time that androgyny was popular in music. Androgyny is more accepted in the music world anyway, but it was only popular back then. It's like a musician's privilege.

[Ilsa]

19. Funny, I thought he was very masculine.

He was confident enough to wear a ruffled shirt, heels, makeup, jewelry, etc. He was confident enough to be of a kind and generous heart, from everything I've read. He knew he was a man.

[Frank Cannon]

23. I always saw him as such.

But that could have something to do with the fact that he was constantly in the company of knockout gorgeous ladies.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

21. Something tells me the person who wrote this wasn't old enough...

to be watching MTV in the 80's

[Yo_Mama]

22. He always struck me as quite masculine - not at all trans.

Wearing satin, ruffles, buckles and a jackload of jewelry was a sign of being a top gun male with high social status a few hundred years ago.

He was an independent personality and an independent thinker, and I think he deliberately tried to break down stereotypical habits of thinking where he saw them as harmful to human beings.

[bluedye33139]

24. Author denies existence of Gender Dysphoria

The author of this piece argues that trans people do not exist because gender is a social construct. Therefore, anyone who attempts to give voice to dysphoric experience of gender is responding to something that does not exist, and they should be forbidden from transitioning. Because doing so would reify gender categories that do not exist, you see.

More to the point, this author tends to speak out only against black American trans people, and her writing in general is slur-laden and unstable. "Prince has been transed," she sneers, lubricious, before staggering off into other bizarro attacks on trans people. If you scroll down in her comments section, you'll find anti-gay people being lovingly validated by her For instance, Prince wasn't trans because he was heterosexual, thank god.

Anyway, it's sad to see anti-trans activists being posted on Democratic Underground. The United States of America has no room for the kind of rightwing cowboy "I hate trans people" nonsense that Meghan Murphy is selling. She has no understanding of American culture or society, and she has no understanding of the concepts of gender dysphoria, genderfluidity, or human dignity.

[pnwmom]

25. Isn't the author merely denying that Prince had gender dysphoria?

Isn't the author saying that we shouldn't assume that everyone who rejects conventional displays of masculinity or femininity is gender dysphoric?

A woman who wants to wear comfortable shoes and no make-up shouldn't be called gender dysphoric. And neither should Prince, a man who liked high heels and makeup -- unless that's how he identifies.

There is nothing inherently feminine about high heels or makeup. It's just the common convention.

I agree with this:

It’s not a problem, to be clear, because people who suffer from sex dysphoria or who don’t conform to the gender binary are a problem, but because we need to allow people to push past gender stereotypes without being forced out of their sex. It is not progressive to say that a male who does not act like a stereotypical man must actually be a woman — it is regressive.

[bluedye33139]

43. Read her other crap

Last year, this author went on a racially-charged diatribe against Laverne Cox, and her entire career is based on anti-trans activism. She has a strange rural Alberta right-wing mentality about gender, but she surreptitiously pretends to be some kind of progressive. She has ties to anti-gay organizations in Idaho among other places.

[KamaAina]

41. I did not know that about this author.

I will blacklist her in the future. I wish I remembered which of my 500 or so FB friends posted that, so I could notify him/her as well.

[bluedye33139]

44. Meg M

Her two main campaigns are to increase penalties for sex workers comma which she has a complicated argument for. And to argue that gender dysphoria cannot exist because gender does not exist, and therefore trans people are monsters.

[KamaAina]

46. I just noticed you're a n00b.

Welcome to DU!

And the ZIP in your name would seem to indicate you're in So. Fla. My beloved Blue stepsister is toughing it out in Bonita Springs, near Ft. Myers.

[bluedye33139]

47. Now opposite corner

I kept the handle but moved from Florida to Asia, spent some years in Canada (where Meghan Murphy, the anti-trans activist, lives) and just settled down into Seattle again.

[GOPblows431]

29. Excellent article

Regardless of his masculinity, Prince was a great artist. That's all that matters.

[2naSalit]

30. Prince

and David Bowie were the embodiment of music, that sex is a part of it simply goes without saying. I am a stereotype buster myself and I fell in love with Prince, in particular, because I felt he strengthened the argument...
And he was a master musician and entertainer who "got it" more than most.

[Califonz]

31. Wealth and fame

are vastly more important than gender. Also, one doesn't need to care about what other people think of your fashion choices. Or much of anything else, really.

[LostOne4Ever]

32. Did he say he wasn't trans? Cause, his own songs seem to say otherwise.

[font size=4]I'm not a woman
I'm not a man
I am something that you'll never understand[/font]

I'll never beat u
I'll never lie
And if you're evil I'll forgive u by and by

U - I would die 4 u, yeah
Darling if u want me 2
U - I would die 4 u

I'm not your lover
I'm not your friend
I am something that you'll never comprehend

No need 2 worry
No need 2 cry
I'm your messiah and you're the reason why

'Cuz U - I would die 4 u, yeah
Darling if u want me 2
U - I would die 4 u

You're just a sinner I am told
Be your fire when you're cold
Make u happy when you're sad
Make u good when u are bad

I'm not a human
I am a dove
I'm your conscious
I am love
All I really need is 2 know that
U believe

Yeah, I would die 4 u, yeah
Darling if u want me 2
U - I would die 4 u

Yeah, say one more time

U - I would die 4 u
Darling if u want me 2
U - I would die 4 u
2 3 4 U

I would die 4 u
I would die 4 u
U - I would die 4 u
U - I would die 4 u

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]I get the point that the author is trying to make, and I don't disagree that just because one doesn't perfectly embody a gender stereotype that doesn't makes them trans, this article comes off rather insensitive to transpeople.


Further, (unless we have a video or document from Prince himself) it is also something we can never truly know. He just might have been a non-transitioning trans person or (as this song written by Prince suggest) non-binary transperson.

Of course, he is almost certainly taking great artistic license with the song as songwriters tend to do. If we interpret this 100% literally one could argue he didn't identify as human either. But truth remain, we don't know. And to insist he was either way without proof comes off badly imho.[/font]

[bluedye33139]

45. Anti-trans activiat

MM is an anti-trans activist who routinely jokes about trans people being attacked, raped or killed. Scroll down and read the comments beneath the article where does originally posted. The author and her friends make anti gay jokes. She is a provincial Hick who made it big last year when she was mentioned in Playboy Magazine after a racially-charged attack on black American trans people.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

38. Prince wasn't masculine? News to me. Every bit as much a man as any I've ever seen/met. ...