In my opinion, Democrats are falling into a deadly trap.

[kentuck]

It is the "debt" trap.

Republicans are using it to justify cuts at all levels of government. Scott Walker used it to justify cuts in pensions for teachers and public workers. "We can't afford it" rings loudly with the voting public. The issue of "debt" is a shackle and chain on the Democratic Party.

American Crossroads, a SuperPac, is out with a new commercial today, showing a clock with how much money Barack Obama is spending every day, running us into a debt disaster. The issue of debt justifies everything the Republican Party is doing at the present time. They are using the issue to dismantle our government.

We must ask, what would the deficit be today if the Bush taxcuts had been allowed to expire? With the terrible economy, would it have gone down at all? Would we better or worse off?

"Debt" seems to only be an issue when Democrats are in power. Dick Cheney said that Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. That is what Republican leaders truly believe. But they know it is a hot issue with their followers, primarily their Tea Party followers.

This was the argument Scott Walker used in Wisconsin. We cannot afford these huge pensions for public workers. We have to make cuts. We are doing what is right. And that was the argument that carried the day in Wisconsin.

Unfortunately, Democrats are caught in the trap. There is no easy escape. If they let the Bush/Obama taxcuts expire, the deficit and debt would decrease dramatically. It would be a positive issue for the Democrats and would disarm the Republican fabricators. However, everyone would have to tighten their belts. Instead of everyone under $250,000 not paying any more in taxes, it should be changed to everyone under $25,000 would not pay anymore in taxes. That is a tough political decision to make, but it would permit the Democrats to escape the trap that is meant to destroy them.

Democrats need to point out in simple language, so that a 3rd grader could understand, that we had a balanced budget in 2000. But it was the Republican with their taxcuts that destroyed the balanced budget.

However, it is not enough just to talk about bringing the deficit down. Democrats must do it. They have to ask for sacrifice. It is for the good of the country as well as the Party. If they don't do it, there is still one thing that can redeem the Party.

Give the White House and the Congress to the Republicans and let them run this country even further into the ground than they already have, until the people plead for mercy, then maybe, the Democratic Party will regain the trust of the American people? The choice is ours.

We need to recognize this political reality. The Republicans are using the issue of debt to dismantle our government and our schools and our unions. They have a very effective message that appeals to a lot of different voters. They are justifying their need to cut spending because the debt and deficit is too large in Washington. They have convinced the voters that it is a necessity.

[rfranklin]

1. Just let the Bush tax cuts expire...don't make any exceptions...everyone must sacrifice!

Regain control of the House and then ram through tax cuts for those most in need and raise the taxes on capital gains, raise the SS cap to unlimited. Suddenly the debt would start melting away.

[earthside]

2. 'Fell'

Unfortunately, I think the Democrats are already mired in the trap.

And, unfortunately, I think the trap was sprung and closed when Pres. Obama agreed to extending all of the Bush tax cuts.

Sadly, I just don't think Pres. Obama is the leader to actually propose and fight for the kinds of things that would get us out of this trap: (1) propose real progressive income tax rates; (2) propose a dramatic restructuring of federal budget priorities and cut military-national security spending in half; (3) have the Treasury directly 'print' money bypassing the Federal Reserve; (4) break-up the mega-transnational banks and investment firms -- all to the point of using the money and power to stimulate demand and get us out of this recession.

So, Karl Rove and the other super PACs are going to choke us with this debt propaganda from now until November ... and as we just saw in the Wisconsin results yesterday, people can indeed be persuaded to vote against their own best interests when there are enough ads on TV, the internet and in direct mail.

[kentuck]

4. Ron Reagan just made the point on MSNBC...

...that the Repubs were not concerned about debt and deficits, they are using it as an excuse to cut government programs. They were discussing Bill Clinton's comments about extending the Bush taxcuts...

[Mayflower1]

3. I think our expensive wars have really hurt us financially.

Obama was going to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan ... he has ramped things up. Why are we still there?

[kentuck]

5. That's a big part of the debt.

Even when Ronald Reagan was President, Republicans believed that if they spent enough money and ran us deep into debt, then there would be nothing left to spend on social programs because we would be busy paying off the debt. That is the trap Democrats are presently stuck in.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

21. Starve the Beast

It has been an incredibly effective strategy...every agency that is under funded and thus can't fulfill its responsibilities is proof that government doesn't work....Democrats have been too confident that people would understand the issues....That's a ridiculous belief as most Americans are too stupidly lazy to ever research the issues.

[kentuck]

23. True.

And it has now progressed to the point where Republicans can destroy government in its entirety because of the debt they created. We have to address the "issue" for political purposes and the survival of the Democratic Party, regardless if it is mostly bullshit.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

45. Perhaps the best way to save the nation

is to allow the GOP to destroy the government...If that doesn't wake up Americans, nothing will.

[Harmony Blue]

6. The Democratic party

needs to call their bluff and end all the Bush tax cuts.

[kentuck]

7. That is the key.

Already today, Boehner and McConnell have come before the cameras to agree with Bill Clinton that the Bush taxcuts need to be extended. Obama should have ended them in 2010 but he didn't because he thought it would hurt some people. In the long run, it is going to hurt a helluva lot more. I will not hold my breath...

[Harmony Blue]

9. Well they need not make the same mistake twice!

It is clear the short term gain hasn't proved a favorable long term result. End the tax cuts and then you have the Republicans on the defensive.

[kentuck]

17. I would agree.

It would disarm the Republicans.

We need a little political courage.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

22. The last Democrat to show political courage

was Lyndon Johnson. Think about it....

[Dokkie]

36. Along with a massive cut in defense

spending, corporate welfare and local security spending. Beat em at their won game and you win them over. But of course the area where we are trying to do this aka war on terror only going to worsen the debt problem

[Pab Sungenis]

8. Everyone would NOT have to tighten their belts.

The economic growth that would come from such a move, especially if done in conjunction with another round of stimulus which this time didn't include tax cuts, would more than make up for the slight difference in people's paychecks.

And if we only let the tax cuts on the upper incomes lapse, then the middle class would still have more money to help fuel the growth the economy needs.

[kentuck]

10. Perhaps you are right?

But the debt would still be an issue if only the upper incomes are asked to pay more. The debt issue has to be resolved. It is killing the Party.

[Pab Sungenis]

12. Look at 1993 through 2001.

Taxes on the wealthy were increased, stimulus was put in place, and eventually the economy grew. By the end of Clinton we were running surpluses, and by the end of a second Gore Administration (assuming he continued those policies) could have potentially paid down a quarter to half of the national debt.

Get the economy going and you will grow your way first out of the deficit and eventually out of debt.

[kentuck]

14. But not under our present tax system...

We will still run huge deficits, even with a healthy economy, just as we did under George W Bush for a few years. If we permit the Bush taxcuts to expire and end the wars that we are not paying for, then we could return to a more healthy economy. The unfair tax code is justification for the Republicans to cut government at all levels. That is something which we should not take our eyes off.

[Pab Sungenis]

15. Again, that's my point.

We need to go back to the Clinton-era tax system, which will happen if we let the Bush tax cuts expire.

But by "addressing the debt issue" it's assumed to mean austerity. That will kill an economy faster than anything else. Look at Europe.

[kentuck]

16. Sorry for the misunderstanding...

I think your comments are right on target.

If only, if only, Obama would come forth and state his intention to cut the debt and decrease the deficit by letting the Bush taxcuts expire in their entirety, then we would be on the right track. The Republicans would lose their "issue" and the Democrats would lose their shackles and chains.

[Pab Sungenis]

56. No harm done.

Sometimes we all get so wound up during things like this recall that we snap at each other. Just need to keep the discussions going.

[rhett o rick]

33. Good comment. nm

[Sekhmets Daughter]

24. Sorry but

allowing just the tax cuts for the upper incomes to expire does little to solve the budget shortfalls or the deficit. They all need to expire. Ever hear Elizabeth Warren's speech about who paid for the roads etc.? That really is the argument in a nutshell.

[MoonRiver]

11. Do you really have hope that our elected "Democrats" will do shit to help us?

I don't.

[rhett o rick]

34. Watch out, language like that will bring down the wrath of the DU Neighborhood Watch.

I hope you arent wearing a hoody.

[MoonRiver]

35. And I have my running shoes on!

May have to high tail it outta here!

[rhett o rick]

40. Just be careful standing your ground. nm

[MoonRiver]

46. No problem, I run!

[rhett o rick]

49. Wise. nm

[Blue_Tires]

13. FWIW, folks like Krugman have been saying this for years

but of course no one in a position to do something *really* takes him seriously

[Harmony Blue]

25. I often don't agree with Krugman

but this is is one situation where I will side with him. The ripple effect from ending all the Bush tax cuts would be positive long term gains.

[FarCenter]

18. The way out is to let all the tax increases and spending cuts take effect at the end of the year

Whatever the government spends comes out of the economy. Either you collect taxes or you borrow money. The only difference is that taxes need not be paid back, while borrowings must be paid back in the future with interest by the collection of future taxes. Therefore, borrowings only delay and increase the ultimate pain.

[kentuck]

19. That would be a good start...

And the Democrats would not be losing elections like the one in Wisconsin. The sad part is that the Clinton rate of 39% is now the top rate ever mentioned...

[jpbollma]

20. YOU ARE sooooooo right!

Austerity is not Prosperity. Our party leaders went along with this crap just like "socialist" leaders in Europe did...look how well that's working out for them. Has Everyone forgotten Keynesian economics and how they always worked in the past??? Idiots and sell outs ..all of them.

[Chan790]

28. Let us get to 39% and we can slowly start talking about rolling back the Reagan tax-cuts.

We can't go from here to pre-Reagan, even if the middle-class accepted it was for their own good, the paycheck-shock would cause us to suffer a mass revolt at the ballot-box.

Go three steps:

1.) Return to Clinton-era rates.
2.) Reclassify Capital-gains as regular income. Say you're using the extra funds to pay down debt and shore up the economy. Throw a small corporate tax-cut into the mix so when the GOP balks you can attack to their base for elected officials opposing tax cuts and closing tax-loopholes that would allow us to balance the budget and pay down the debt.
3.) Slowly roll-back the Reagan cuts incrementally.

Hell, let's throw a in 4.) Raise the threshhold below which Americans pay no taxes. Doing so would be a massive stimulus that would put more money back into the economy. 1-3.) provide more than enough revenue to pay for it S/T and longer-term the stimulus of it would create more taxable income.

At the end of the day, we have more revenues in hand, a lower national debt and we've shackled the RW capitalists...they can either flee America or learn to pay their fair share.

[kentuck]

30. In effect...

We have cut taxes so deeply that businesses are now sitting on $2 trillion dollars in cash. They are looking for places and ways to spend it or invest it. Taxcuts do not create jobs. Demand creates jobs. It is time to toss the "supply-side" nonsense into the trashbin of history.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

26. Even Romney

has acknowledge that $1 trillion in spending cuts will send the economy back into recession. We need to raise taxes and come up with a long range plan for reducing the deficit once the economy recovers.

[kentuck]

27. Yes, the austerity of spending cuts must end..

if we are to get this economy going again. Ending the wars and ending the Bush taxcuts will go a long ways into getting this economy jump-started. Naturally, Boehner and McConnell have already come out this morning in support of Bill Clinton's comments about extending the Bush taxcuts. That would only tighten the trap around us. And they know it.

[FarCenter]

29. The spending cuts in 2013 would be only $110 billion

Don't fall for the bogus ten-year numbers used by the politicians and MSM.

Of the cuts, $55 billion would be cuts of defense spending, which is a really good thing. The MIC must shrink.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/05/09/reid-issues-threat-on-defense-cuts/

[Sekhmets Daughter]

31. I think there is zero chance

of the Defense budget being reduced by a dime, yet alone $55 billion. I have lost all faith in the Democrats ability or even willingness to stop the the onslaught of Republican destruction. I predict the Bush tax cuts will not be allowed to expire, there will be further spending cuts to social programs and Romney will win the election....we have seen the results of money joined with stupidity in Wisconsin...and then when the debt ceiling is reached in Feb or Mar, Romney will ask for an increase and get it with opposition from only a few Tea Party representatives.

[kentuck]

32. One thing I would not want to see...

..is if the Republicans win the next election, I would not want the Democrats to come out and ask that the taxcuts be allowed to expire. That would be too much. If they can't do it on their watch, then just STFU if they are out of power. just my opinion.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

43. Agreed. But

what will really infuriate me is if the Dems vote to increase the debt ceiling after the tax cuts are extended...If they do that I will vote Green Party forever more. I think it's is long past time Americans learn just what the consequences of the GOP agenda really are.

[girl gone mad]

38. You actually support the fiscal cliff?

Why??

"borrowings must be paid back in the future with interest by the collection of future taxes"

No, this is not actually true. Taxes do not fund spending at the federal level. The federal government does not need to borrow to spend, and in fact it does not need to borrow at all.

[FarCenter]

41. If the federal government didn't need to borrow in order to spend, the debt limit wouldn't matter

But the federal government actually does borrow in order to spend. It sells bonds, notes, etc. in order to fund the difference between receipts and expenditures.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

44. True, however

there is an entire school of thought which holds that the government does not need to "borrow" money through the Federal Reserve....it can print it's own money and hold down inflation by retiring outstanding bonds.

[girl gone mad]

37. Democrats need to just shut up about deficits.

People do not actually care about the deficit and the deficit is not a real problem. When Republicans talk about the deficit, they are merely using it as a scapegoat to blame for people's economic frustrations. This way they can avoid confronting the real problems in our economy - globalization, corporatization, financialization, bailouts, regulatory capture and deregulation. Oh, but wait... Democrats don't really want to talk about any of those things either, since they are every bit as supportive of the rentiers as the Republicans.

So I guess we're stuck hearing about an imaginary problem with an imaginary impact on our lives.

[kentuck]

42. I disagree...

I think the debt and deficit is exactly what Scott Walker was using as an excuse to cut pensions and programs that Wisconsin could not afford and he was able to sell that message to many union members as well as some Democrats. I don't think it would be wise to ignore this issue. In fact, two more cities in CA passed a bill to cut public pensions last night also.

It may be a deceitful issue but it is not imaginary. Democrats will continue to pay a heavy price if they ignore it.

[Mairead]

39. I can hardly imagine anything more powerful

than a chart that would capture how much the military budget benefits the wealthy, especially those in and around Congress, compared to how much it damages rather than benefits regular people.

Contrast that chart with one that would capture how minimal and basic the social-program expenditures are that they want to gut to feed that already-obscene military budget.

I might not be recalling the details completely correctly, but some years ago I saw data demonstrating that for every $1 the wealthy pay in taxes and on lobbying, they get some $2000 back. 2K might not be exactly right, but it's some truly breath-stopping number anyway.

We need to get that in an easily-digested form and put it out where people can see it.

[jtuck004]

47. In my opinion, respectfully, that's a load of crap.

If FDR had said "we could do so much better if we weren't spending so much" this country would have been over. Instead we spent somewhere around 113% of our GDP and turned this into the single most powerful nation on the earth - and made a country where people had OPPORTUNITY to work for a better life for themselves and future generations.Whether it was war or job programs, this country is great precisely because we used our debt as an investment in our future, not to line the pockets of a Mi$$ Rmoney.

The Republicans don't give a sweet god damn about the debt except when Democrats hold office - never have, never will - except where it provides food or shelter for someone with low income, where it is spent to help for family planning or medical care, or where it is used to make sure housing is available. The have no trouble whatsoever building a military on the back of the American taxpayer, making lower incomes lower and our debt higher.

Beyond that, we are a FIAT currency. I know most people went to school in the U.S., where they are still teaching economics as if it is 1844, but we have a fiat currency because we didn't want to live any longer under the hard limitations of the gold standard. Now we have that power and flexibility, with a nation that is completely ignorant about the advantage it offers us.

THIS IS THE PARTY OF OPPORTUNITY, OF GROWTH, OF A FUTURE. Until we believe it, however, and start pushing that agenda we can argue and beat each other up all day long, but for someone outside the room, when they see EVERYONE saying the debt is too high, they are left with the impression that the Democrats just don't have the stomach to do what is necessary.

It is time to start investing in this country again, and the Democrats are the only ones that can do it. The same ones that took office when we were losing 800,000 jobs a month and argued with the thugs as the debt climbed along with poverty.

Take a look at our own government projections. The CBO says the unemployment rate should be back to full employment by 2014. Is there anyone delusional enough to still believe that? The reason is because we haven't attacked jobs, the thing people MOST want, and instead spend political capital making a few people at the top of major insurance companies a lot richer.

We need more investment, which means more debt. But democrats need to talk about how good an investment in the American people can be, how it brought vigor to the South with electricity, how it brought commerce and freedom to roads, how we educated 30 years of returning veterans by paying ALL of their tuition, how we got people jobs with CETA...

- Does anyone remember how creative people were in the 60's and 70's? Street vendors, architecture, millions of people in school experimenting and learning things - the Internet was the result of that, btw - and the result of investment in the people of this country -

...or we can snivel around like third way Republicans (my apologies to Third Way Manny) and talk about debt. But if we lose...well, maybe it's because of all their dollars, or maybe it's because Democrats didn't get out and vote...or maybe, just maybe, it will be because we didn't offer them an alternative vision, a reason to get up and get going, a knowledge that if they want to work, work is there waiting for them, and a stronger country for all of it.

[kentuck]

48. With equal respect...

BHO is not FDR.

I'm not sure you read my post which you labeled a "load of crap"?

In it, I stated: "Debt" seems to only be an issue when Democrats are in power. Dick Cheney said that Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. That is what Republican leaders truly believe. But they know it is a hot issue with their followers, primarily their Tea Party followers.

If you think the Republicans are not using the debt "issue" very effectively and making cuts in pensions and programs in states across this country, because they are selling it to the people as the responsible and right thing to do, then I think you are not looking very closely. If you think it is only about the money, you will find yourself on the short end of the stick. Republicans are intent on dismantling this government and if they can do it in Wisconsin, where can they not do it??

[jtuck004]

50. BHO does not equal FDR - lol. No kidding. To your other point, maybe the thugs are successful

because most people don't feel a real, vibrant alternative exists, maybe they don't see people who really and truly believe in opportunity.

All they see is another party who agrees with the big boys that we need to cut debt, just not over there, and certainly not over here, but that, that over there, that's ok. And yeah, there are more people in poverty than there were 4 years ago, and there will be more next year - but they don't vote, so let's appease the enemy.

What a worthless position to sell.

People want hope, and they want work. They don't want fucking food stamps or government housing. Women want equality in the workplace - and they are getting their wish - checkers and greeters at Walmart, coffee baristas at Starbucks, home health care aides - all are paid equally. The problem is in the higher paying jobs, which are becoming extinct.

We will see in November, but I think we are having such trouble because we are not presenting enough of an alternative, we are accepting the enemies framing as our own, and even the dumbest political operative knows that is suicide. Even Clinton is calling Mi$$ Rmoney's work as a junk bond dealer "venture capital". I know he isn't that stupid, so does he have some other agenda, other than helping Democrats? And if so, why is he being asked to help the enemy?

This country desperately needs a new design, an infusion of at least a couple trillion dollars for jobs and education, and an overhaul of how wealth is distributed. And it's sure possible that the Democrats might lose.

It was very possible in the beginning that we could lose in WWII. Our army was small, our military was not big enough to take on what we needed. Even knowing that we engaged. But appeasement just brought more bombs and death. It took bodies in the streets to realize the fallacy of letting your enemy construct the dialogue.

This is no different. Look that the projections from the CBO - we think we've seen debt, but we haven't seen anything yet. They still show a chart expecting full employment in 2014, based on our current policies, yet we are already off the track they have published. Our debt should be an investment, not just dollars providing people with not quite enough food or housing or medical care or bombs.
We should expect a return, such as from a jobs program or an education program geared not for the 1950's with some upgraded tests but a curriculum geared toward dealing with the unknowns that are in front of us.

I would rather go down fighting for the right thing than as a simpering house serf playing the tune of the enemy.

So, so tired of people saying we have to make little wins to succeed. Look around. A rise in unemployment is success. We have NEVER had the increase in part-time jobs that we have now, and they are continuing to increase. This is success? We need to go after those things which all the short-sighted people tell us we can't do. Adopting the language of the enemy just to keep a job for a few months or years makes it murky, and win is nothing more than a delaying action. I don't think we will fail, because I think people really want the hope they were promised - but if we do, it will be clear to everyone as to what policies put us in down the drain.

And then we can get back to the work that is required.

[kentuck]

51. I'm not sure you got the main gist of my post?

I agree with just about everything you posted. But my point was that since the Repubs are using the huge debt as a political "issue", then the best way to bring that debt and deficit down is to let the Bush taxcuts expire. Do you disagree with that part of my post?

Democrats can then say they are doing something about the debt and the deficit. They are asking the wealthy to pay their fair share. If they can't frame that, what can they sell ??

[jtuck004]

54. Change the frame, ala Lakoff. Make it about growth and investment.

Sure, let the tax cuts expire. and that would be a significant amount of money, but not nearly enough to put the 25 million back to work that want work, or move the millions of people working forced part-time hours into full-time jobs, or clear the debt that homeowners and students are locked into.

To your point, I think we agree on a lot. But things are very bad out there for an increasing number of people, and it is going to take a larger effort than anyone is even talking about to change it. That's not going to happen while we play the rethug game.

[Festivito]

52. National debt is not a problem, interest rates are low. The trap is bigger.

1. Interest rates for borrowing are low and going lower. It's not nice having a huge national debt, but it's not our biggest problem.

We have bunches of people not working, we're better off working them while raising that debt rather than austerity and watching more people not finding work.

2. The big problem is outstanding derivatives neatly tucked in retirement accounts waiting to be cashed. By then, there will be no cash. Partly because of too many not working.

Already, cities and companies cannot pay their retirees.

The Republicans made hay out of derivatives over and over.

First, it brought up a floundering Bush economy in 2004 by borrowing against our future. (Welcome to the future.)

Second, it made their buddies in banks a lot of bucks, including our direct tax dollars.

Third, it comes due later, in the future, in a future Obama administration. Oh, yeah, we're here now. The retirement accounts across the country are going or going to go under. ***Remember what fun the fund managers had going to Hawaii to learn how to invest retirement accounts?***

Fourth, with people not working, government on the hook for retirements, Social Security will be argued as not viable. Too bad, so sad. (With a hands up Yippee from Republicans.)

Our U.S. 15-trillion dollar economy runs on about 2-3 trillion in cash. So, how much derivative cash is out there? I hear 600-1200 trillion dollars.

That's a lot of debt.

The national debt is a tiny 16 trillion in comparison.

[kentuck]

53. It is a "political" problem for the Democrats...

Because they have not found a response for the Republicans using it as an excuse to cut pensions and social programs that the people need. They see that as a weakness in Obama and plan on using it to cut government as long as they can.

As you have noted, it is not our biggest problem. But it is, in my opinion, the biggest political problem for the Democratic Party. They need a message to counter or they need to cut the deficit in order to disarm the attacks of the right wing. If they don't do anything, they will continue to trick people with the same message as Scott Walker did in Wisconsin.

[Festivito]

55. I still think the derivative problem will be the bigger political problem. But, ...

First, the national deficit is coming down under Obama, year by year. Now, do you think our media covers that or intercepts a misinforming Republican? No, me neither.

When you want Dems to respond, I think you mean respond effectively. That's not straight-forward, that's not honesty, that's not facts and figures. It is, rather, the mystery of three-dimensional chess in my book.

So, if you have some way to get the idea that our national deficit is going down. Go for it. Please.

BTW, I call the actual change in national debt the national deficit, not to be confused with the budget deficit which is a nice number but generally useless in comparisons such as trends. The word deficit, alone, is so badly misused by Republicans that its use is now only to confuse people by comparing budget apples and national oranges.

I'm not being much help to you in this, am I. I'd better take another laundry break.

[Fire Walk With Me]

57. Absolutely. "Debt" is an illusion considering the banks' theft of TRILLIONS of our dollars,

and then they say the people have to pay for it in the worst way, which is to give them everything in what is obviously a disaster capitalism power-grab.

"Creating causes and conditions."

"austerity" is ONLY a power grab. And it is purely sadistic.

When talk again comes around to the "debt ceiling", SHOUT THE BASTARDS DOWN! There are trillions of dollars to pay for all of these problems, if they'll just go and get it back.

Oddly, they're not going and getting it back. Hmmmm.....hmmmmmmm.....