When It Comes to Age Bias, Tech Companies Don’t Even Bother to Lie

[MrScorpio]

Apr 5, 2016

Imagine you’re African-American and working at a 500-person technology company where everyone else is white, and one day the CEO declares in a national newspaper interview that his company’s lack of diversity isn’t an accident. In fact he prefers to hire white people because when it comes to technology white people simply make better employees.

That statement would be unthinkable. But what if a tech CEO made the same comment about age?

In 2013, I went to work at a software company called HubSpot. I was 52 years old. The average HubSpot employee was 26. Everyone seemed to be right out of college. The place was like a frat house, with refrigerators stocked with cases of beer and telemarketing sales “bros” drinking at their desks while hammering away on the phones. Thirty-something employees were considered “old people.”

About nine months after I joined, HubSpot’s CEO and co-founder, Brian Halligan, explained to the New York Times that this age imbalance was not something he wanted to remedy, but in fact something he had actively cultivated. HubSpot was “trying to build a culture specifically to attract and retain Gen Y’ers,” because, “in the tech world, gray hair and experience are really overrated,” Halligan said.

I gasped when I read that. Could anyone really believe this? Even if you did believe this, what CEO would be foolish enough to say it out loud? It was akin to claiming that you prefer to hire Christians, or heterosexuals, or white people. I assumed an uproar would follow. As it turned out, nobody at HubSpot saw this as a problem. Halligan didn’t apologize for his comments or try to walk them back.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/when-comes-age-bias-tech-companies-dont-even-bother-lie-dan-lyons

[bemildred]

1. They like young people because they are inexperienced and gullible.

They will work for less and can be made to believe that the latest hot-shit startup is doing something really important, and their business models demand that sort of thing.

[Locrian]

3. short term gains

Yes - these companies are the "do it fast" and "get the $$ quick and get out".
They want young, hardy workers that they can use and abuse, then toss aside.

Same as it ever was.... same as it ever was.....

[bemildred]

5. Myopia rules.

Last edited Wed Apr 6, 2016, 02:05 PM - Edit history (1)

In other businesses it's called pump and dump. It's the same game, ever popular. They don't think long term because they don't plan to be around that long.

[Javaman]

34. same reason why the military takes them young. easy to mold easy to control.

us older folks can see through the bullshit.

[villager]

2. Is it that they all think they're going to die gloriously before any of them makes 40?

I mean, don't they consider that they too can't be "26 forever?"

Though I guess the assumption is that they will all be "cashed out" by then, and none of them will "have to work" by the time they are similarly "old" in middle age....

[Locrian]

4. get it and get out

A lot of ones I talk to want to "make it big" (ie work like a DOG) and retire early.... funny how that doesn't seem to be working out.

Don't get me wrong. A lot of these young workers are REALLY good. But they're falling for the trick that pits them *against* others for jobs, dollars, etc. Most think they'' never see social security, and are CONVINCED they can master their destiny if we just let the market work and let them control THEIR money (vs social program, etc). In the end, they'll be tossed aside as the next "wave" comes in also REALLY good, but cheaper and hungrier, after any social safety net has been shredded.

The STEM / tech industry is gearing up to be the next "pool" labor that is massively exploited in terms of job security, hours worked, stress, etc. Pay will vary greatly - as it's the carrot and the stick all wrapped in one.

[villager]

6. I sense a lot of "surprises" coming for various birthday celebrations, from 40 onward.... nt

[Locrian]

7. I see

I see that, along with depression, addiction, and other stress and physical diseases. There's an article somewhere where they talk about how Adderall is THE drug of choice for a log of young professionals.

I know what I was like as younger - you feel invincible and will do anything to "compete" and "win", even if it's long term a bad thing from your health.

It takes a lot of work (and resources) to push back and say "no" to something when they make any letting up ("slacking&quot imply you're a loser.

The pressure young kids are feeling is starting WAY earlier - with the (STEM) mandatory "robotics competitions", tests, schools, etc. I'm sure some are fun - but the smart 18 yo kids my sons age are scared, and worried more than having a great "learning" experience. If you don't live, breath, and eat STEM from grade 4 - you're a "left behind".

Again - don't get me wrong. Some people ARE born *perfectly* suited to it. Just that the competition (buyers market) is getting skewed as we destroy the middle class and are running toward 3rd world status where we have upper 0.01% in control - a middle class "slave" intelligentsia enablers, and the forgotten expendable poor.
.
.

[villager]

9. Yeah, the pressure to "make it" definitely starts earlier...

...especially with the unaffordability of colleges now... so parents/kids begin to worry about "scholarship strategies," etc. (whether sports, "robotics," or what have you) way back in grade school...

Then, of course, so as not to be overwhelmed by debt, you have to "make bank" early on....

[Locrian]

10. strategy

Yep. I'm lucky we have the means to be able to fund my (one) daughter's college career. But there's a real focus on not just choosing what you love to do, but making sure you make enough $$, and that the jobs are not hell-holes, or will be eliminated (automation anyone?)

STEM is seen as the "golden" area - but it's SOOO competitive and fast paced. Not to mention the prospect of having to move somewhere where the "good" (expensive) jobs are, and/or the "load em up ' use em up" side of employment.


I actually think the pace and "up and down" would be less of an issue *if* there was a much better safety net for down-times. Seems the world is transitioning into that sort of era where there is just too few jobs -so there HAS to be some way of dealing with the fact that people are not 100% of the time employed. That probably won't happen w/o a revolution that shares some of the MASSIVE gains taken by the 0.1% with the rest of the people (everyone else) that made it possible.

[villager]

14. That's right. Even the model of the gig economy would work with a better safety net.

I'm a writer (and occasional teacher of same) in my mid-50's, who's been relatively lucky so far (though not without some precarious "lean times" during those collective.. lean times).

Mostly freelanced it most of my working life.

But if that's the model the corporadoes are trying to "transition" everyone to, more or less (my other writer/actor friends and I joke that "everyone is an artist now!," whether they want to be or not, in terms of work trajectories...), that's not gonna work without that safety net.

And the 1%ers aren't going to give us that safety net, in any meaningful way... unless something profoundly changes.

However that comes about.

[Demobrat]

29. That is exactly right.

I live in the thick of it. The attitude is that if you are over 40 and still have to work you are a loser.

They start visiting the plastic surgeon around age 35.

[Javaman]

35. same mentality on wall street with the traders.

it's the testosterone competition.

[justiceischeap]

8. As a web developer, I worry about this every year

the calendar ticks by. I've got to figure out a new career at some point, I guess.

[FighttheFuture]

18. Just try to gather enough lube to make the fucking that's coming for all of us a bit easier to

bear. That's about what you can do.... unless we can change the political system.

[KamaAina]

11. I keep thinking about recruiting some of my fellow $iliValley geezers

and starting a consulting firm. We could call it "Old School".

[villager]

15. Hey! A Geezer Gig could get me back to the Bay Area!

[elljay]

26. If you could afford the real estate! nt

[villager]

27. oh, right, never mind.

Though my mom's sprawling East Bay house has enough room to convert the basement to an in-law apartment....

[elljay]

28. Do you know what you could rent that house for these days?

All you have to do is persuade her to move to a cheap Florida condo, then you can rent the house out for maybe 4-5 grand a month!

[tech3149]

12. I quit working at 49 Ageism wasn't the primary reason

but it sure played a part. After a couple of years off the job I knew in the current environment there would be no positions that would consider me no matter how good a fit I was.

[nichomachus]

13. A lot of it is due to the "gig economy"

About 40 percent of Americans now work in part-time or short-term jobs. Despite the rosy figures from the government, there has been a drop in real, 40-hour per week permanent jobs.

Many techies -- in some companies, up to 50 percent -- work on a project or a task within a project, and then have to look for a new "gig." When you're in your 20s, that can be fun, even exciting. Once you're settled down, maybe with a family, you don't want to be scrambling for a new job every few months. You want more stability.

Here's a good article on the gig economy:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/06/the-gig-economy-another-vicious-attack-on-ordinary-working-slobs/

[eggplant]

16. I'm coming up on 48, and I *definitely* think about this all the time.

I've been a developer for nearly 30 years, and I worry about how I will find another gig if my current one ever vanishes. I know that when I was on the younger end of the scale, I didn't consider the old guys to be assets. Karma is a bitch some times.

[fbc]

32. I think there's a difference

Things moved more slowly when you were starting out. The internet wasn't really even a thing then. Now you are an older guy who made his career in the internet age and you are most likely familiar with things changing every 2-3 years. As long as you've been able to adapt so far, there's no reason you can't continue to adapt in the future.

[FighttheFuture]

17. Thank him for his honesty at the civil age discrimination lawsuits sure to follow!!!

[Lucky Luciano]

19. Older people want to get home to their families.

Younger people think hack-a-thons all night are fun.

[Skittles]

37. nice generalization

I guess you assume everyone has a family

[X_Digger]

38. Those of us who've done this shit before, say 'fuck it' at 5.

I gave 13 years to verizon, always dreading the RIFs every six to twelve months, never taking all my vacation because there was some H1B visa kid just waiting to do my job. 13 years I put up with that shit, doing 60 hour weeks, doing the work of three people because I had to fire my two employees, but had to do the same amount of work.

You know what? Nobody's tombstone will ever read, "He added shareholder value".

Now? If the place isn't burning down, my ass is out the door. I work to live, I don't live to work. Fuck.that.noise.

[ErikJ]

20. Image is everything in some industries

Places like Hooters are obviously age AND sex discriminating for waitresses but at least theyre smart enough to not ever mention it.

[Bradical79]

21. I'm going back to school at 36 to earn my computer science degree

It's something a worry about somewhat. I'm sure someone will actually hire me based on real ability, or I'll just do my own thing, but I'm not looking forward to all the rejection I'll probably encounter :-P I've had a couple interviews with douchie managers in my 16 years of retail experience. It's pretty awkward, lol.

[moonbabygo]

25. You will be ok

I'm 58 and got a new job in February for a big IT firm. I'm a Unix/Linux admin. However; my pay is what I was making in 2008. I tried to bargain with them but the competition was too much. They had a layoff last week and they laid off people who have been there for years, but it was based on their salary. There was a time when we made a lot of money. At least a lot for me.

Things have certainly changed, but in your case you never knew the good ole days so it should be the norm for you and all those just enter the field


Good luck!

[fbc]

31. What are you going to do with that degree? teach?

Are there jobs that care about a computer science degree? I mean I guess it's something to put on a resume, and there are places that value a degree regardless of the field of study but... You probably aren't going to learn anything that's going to help you get a job.

Everything you need to learn and be productive is available online. Pick something to learn on the server side: search google for top PHP or Node.js frameworks, pick one and learn it. Build some stuff and work on your github transcript, the body of work that an employer can look at to see what you can do.

Try attending Code For America events to meet people and get a feel for what other people are doing. Join meetup.com and join groups devoted to the skills you are developing.

[X_Digger]

39. Expect to get folks asking for 5 years of experience in a 3 year old technology. (I'm not kidding.)

Most folks don't know how new something is, they just see the keywords others are using on monster and dice, and stick them on their own set of requirements.

[staggerleem]

22. I'm 62, and I work for an East Coast tech firm.

I've been here for 23 years (yeah, I know that an engineer can maximize his earning potential by changing jobs every 5 years or so - that's OK, I value other things, like job satisfaction and a supervisor who's NOT an asshole, over money.) We are more about hardware than software (our software is essentially device drivers,) and I'd venture that our average employee is well into his or her 40's. We hired half a dozen new engineers last summer. 5 of them were straight out of college, but one was 50-ish. Those hires brought the average age down some.

There's no doubt that, as a company, we're looking to get younger overall. It just makes sense - hell, they're ABSOLUTELY gonna lose me to retirement (yes, I CAN afford it!) in a few short years, and I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one.

Anyway, Scorpio, if you can pull up roots & re-locate at this stage of your life, you might want to check out some East Coast firms. I think we place a bit more value on experience around here. When you are looking to innovate, knowing what DOES NOT and WILL NOT work can be a great asset.

[Logical]

40. Been at my developer job for 30 years, same place, Coding iPad apps now. Still love it. Nt

[TransitJohn]

23. As a 44 year old who was laid off 4 weeks ago

Fuck all of that. It is hard, and age discrimination is real. I will be lucky to be working within the year, and can expect three times the work for one third the pay.

[Jerry442]

24. A word to all those super-hot STEM people.

Take a good, hard, critical look at the work you do and the people around you doing it. The harsh reality is that the work you do isn't particularly difficult, it doesn't require extensive training to do it, and the supply of people who can step into your job is huge. Don't believe me? Then why do you think it is that STEM-based companies can blithely discard over-40 employees without a second thought?

If you're a young worker in the field, plan for a second career. You're going to end up there anyway -- might as well make a conscious effort to steer a course that's good for you.

[fbc]

30. The guy who wrote this isn't even a tech person.

I'm an older programmer working with people who are all young enough to be my children and my experience is that if the work is good then age doesn't matter.

I dislike this person's characterization of the salesmen as "beer swilling frat bros" as if that's something particular to the generation or the industry. From my perspective, almost all salespeople are assholes, even the old ones. It's apparently a personality trait that helps them do their job.

Maybe ageism is an issue in the tech industry, but if feels like this writer, who is not a technical person, is being disingenuous. By saying "tech companies" he implies the issue is affecting technical employees, when really he is talking about sales and HR.

[drm604]

33. Tell me about it.

There was a time when my BS in computer science by itself would get me a job. No more. I've been looking for a year. Everyone who interviews me is younger than me.

I have great phone interviews, but after the face to face followup, there's suddenly no interest.

[Skittles]

36. I used to run entire job streams on punched cards

I used to hand-mount 20 tapes sequentially to feed into one tape (that's how we did a merge!).....to scratch a tape I TOOK THE LABEL OFF OF IT

35 years later I am still in tech.........do they think I cannot learn? IT IS NON-STOP LEARNING