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Get over yourselves America: "There Is NO Such Thing As Race" (Original Post) kpete Mar 2016 OP
Thanks kpete! erlewyne Mar 2016 #1
https://southasianheartcenter.org/ AngryAmish Mar 2016 #2
That doesn't establish a biological foundation for classifying humans by race. n/t ronnie624 Mar 2016 #32
However groups of people do have slightly different genetics AngryAmish Mar 2016 #51
The genetic variations you cite ronnie624 Mar 2016 #58
Species =/= race Igel Mar 2016 #3
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #4
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #5
What the fuck are you doing on this site, dude? Ferretherder Mar 2016 #6
while Nye's sentiment is nice, it's way over-simplifying the matter Fast Walker 52 Mar 2016 #7
I think his sentiment is directed at those... paleotn Mar 2016 #10
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #18
Hate rots, son. Brickbat Mar 2016 #23
That's it Zambero Mar 2016 #50
"... there are major tribal and animal instincts that influence our psychology." True. pampango Mar 2016 #17
The reality is all humans share identical "major tribal and animal instincts" bhikkhu Mar 2016 #31
* ronnie624 Mar 2016 #39
Incorporate the good Zambero Mar 2016 #52
it's not black people but "the rest of society" that need to hear this eShirl Mar 2016 #37
my point was just telling this to people is unlikely to do anything by itself Fast Walker 52 Mar 2016 #44
There are also countless medical rationals for being mindful of race. Marr Mar 2016 #41
+1 !! exactly. lunasun Mar 2016 #43
Even among members of the same "race" paleotn Mar 2016 #55
So called racial characteristics are merely adaptations to climate. brush Mar 2016 #46
yes-- genetically there are no human races Fast Walker 52 Mar 2016 #49
That is a fact.... paleotn Mar 2016 #8
One race: Human! mountain grammy Mar 2016 #9
Thank you mountain grammy kpete Mar 2016 #11
... mountain grammy Mar 2016 #14
that is the correct answer!! .............nt 2naSalit Mar 2016 #45
Physiologically speaking, he is correct. Culturally speaking, race is a HUGE issue in this country. Trust Buster Mar 2016 #12
That is true but irrelevant in a social justice context. blackspade Mar 2016 #13
because, after 64 years on this planet... kpete Mar 2016 #19
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #35
Again, I don't disagree with you on the science, being an anthropologist myself.... blackspade Mar 2016 #66
I don't see how acknowledging the biological absurdity forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #68
There is no biological thing called "race" but there is a sociological thing called "race" gollygee Mar 2016 #15
The challege is... ConsiderThis_2016 Mar 2016 #16
TY Bill... ConsiderThis_2016 Mar 2016 #20
Social constructs are powerful things. Brickbat Mar 2016 #21
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #26
get off my thread kpete Mar 2016 #27
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #22
Shove your racist shit up your ass. Brickbat Mar 2016 #24
There are no "races", but there certainly are disadvantaged groups Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2016 #25
This should be its own post, Bernard! Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #33
Thank you so much! This is so true! raging moderate Mar 2016 #56
KnRRRRR!!!!! Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #28
I am happy to see this. RoccoR5955 Mar 2016 #29
No such thing as God, either, but he still has a massive influence on how people live their lives. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2016 #30
and "that" needs to change too kpete Mar 2016 #36
Yes, Homo sapiens is indeed a single species Zambero Mar 2016 #34
i love your biological point of view kpete Mar 2016 #40
It appears... gregcrawford Mar 2016 #38
But there is racism. And there is bigotry. Iggo Mar 2016 #42
I wasn't aware that "race" is a synonym for "species." WinkyDink Mar 2016 #47
There is but ONE race. And it's a marathon, not a sprint. And Team Earth needs to FailureToCommunicate Mar 2016 #48
We need to OkSustainAg Mar 2016 #53
"Race" is a social construct. mhatrw Mar 2016 #54
K&R. Duval Mar 2016 #57
Said the white man. Throd Mar 2016 #59
I'm glad you said it. It's so easy to dismiss race when sufrommich Mar 2016 #60
just saying kpete Mar 2016 #61
I'm not really making a statement on how we should sufrommich Mar 2016 #62
of course race, gender and culture matter kpete Mar 2016 #63
Well "why" is the big question isn't it? sufrommich Mar 2016 #64
Word XemaSab Mar 2016 #71
White Supremacists disagree with Nye also Democat Mar 2016 #72
Not entirely true. We are one species, but the genetic variation is significant in medicine LittleBlue Mar 2016 #65
False - you're leaving out individual differences among "racial groups." jonestonesusa Mar 2016 #69
that chart is incorrect Skittles Mar 2016 #67
Ok, I laughed nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #70
I can't stop laughing. Iggo Mar 2016 #74
I was wondering if anyone would comment Skittles Mar 2016 #75
I woke up the whole house. Iggo Mar 2016 #80
How do you explain racism? noiretextatique Mar 2016 #73
Oh god, not this again... Rebkeh Mar 2016 #76
There's no such thing as race --SAID NO BLACK PEOPLE EVER!!!!! UMTerp01 Mar 2016 #77
It is a condition caused by accidental temporary geographical isolation. Half-Century Man Mar 2016 #78
Here is an alternative. A solution. Rebkeh Mar 2016 #79
 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
51. However groups of people do have slightly different genetics
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:55 AM
Mar 2016

One could call it race, for subgroups or whatever. I just think it is silly and ascientific to argue otherwise. Asians have dry earwax by and large, Europeans tend to have wet earwax. Altitude adaptation on the Tibetan plateau as well as South American altitude adaptation (two different mechanisms). Sickel cell variant. Lactose persistence. The archaic humanoid DNA in non African folks.

No one argues that different perceived races are different species anymore. But there are large groups of people who can be organized as races, or in that rustles the jimmies just call them very large extended families. The currently recognized racial groups in the US are complete nonsense but there is a load of scientific evidence that groups of people who are more closely related than people from the other side of our world.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
58. The genetic variations you cite
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 01:34 PM
Mar 2016

are no more significant than those which determine differences in hair or eye color.

Igel

(35,320 posts)
3. Species =/= race
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 09:59 AM
Mar 2016

Race is more like "variety."

It's like saying all tomatoes are the same species, so there's no such thing as a Roma or Beefsteak. Doesn't mean "race" is a vald construct, just that the way it's presented is basically setting up a straw man in support of the argument he's making. It's a foolish thing to do--why set up your own argument as a straw man?


Otherwise you're stuck with a few different problems. The first is the lack of clear borders. Then again, varieties and races in animals and plants seldom have clear borders. Species seldom have clear borders. Environmentalists went a bit gaga whwen a "species" of wolf turned out to be a hybrid. Not a species at all. If it's hard to define "species", of course it's hard to define "race" and variety. In some cases of echinofossulocactus in N Mexico, you get different species and descriptions of the prototypical example depending which side of the damned growing area you start on. Looking at genetics helps, but you still get arguments over which genetic traits, exactly, are important. But no one wants to say they're all the same species, because if you take samples from the extremes of the growing area they don't produce fertile offspring.

Another is a recent reclassification of varieties of humans in Africa. Based on skin color and politics--on the basis of a political definition of race--lumpers put two rather distinct varieties of humans in the same pool, creating a hellish amount of genetic diversity in that one pool. Suddenly the amount of variation within a single race was greater than variation between races. If they'd used the definition of varieties from before the '70s, it's unclear that would have happened. Oddly, the post-70's definition of race was that of Western white racists and the black liberation philosophies that kind of racism spawned, pretty much only skin color. Politics caused biology to adopt the most extremely racist definition of race, then used it to undermine racism. Left out was the non-racist strains of physical anthropology that liked looking at a range of physical traits and differences and correlations between them. We sometimes worship before the altar of the great god GIGO, when we're all set for GO.

It gets back to how we define "race." Linguists have the same problem with language. So recently an article posted on DU looked at a "language" now nearly extinct in Sierra Leone but used in songs and some speech in Cuba. "Banta." The problem is that Banta pretty much by everybody is considered a mutually intelligible dialect of a much larger set of dialects that form a language. The native speakers of Banta and the other dialects all say that they have no trouble understanding what's said in any of what splitters would want to call "different languages." The speakers don't consider them different languages. (And those are the two primary characteristics of "language" that are used in various ways--mutual intelligibility and whether speakers consider them separate.)

Note that some folk decided "race" wasn't an entirely bad way of looking at things. When it becomes politically advantageous, exceptions are made. Some medications work different on different subpopulations, and the single simplest identifying factor is race. Not 100% accurate, but fairly accurate, at least for historically settled populations.

Response to kpete (Original post)

Response to kpete (Original post)

 

Fast Walker 52

(7,723 posts)
7. while Nye's sentiment is nice, it's way over-simplifying the matter
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:32 AM
Mar 2016

there are major tribal and animal instincts that influence our psychology. It's easy to say there's no race, but tell that to black people who are constantly viewed in racial terms by the rest of society.

paleotn

(17,931 posts)
10. I think his sentiment is directed at those...
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:39 AM
Mar 2016

doing the oppressing. The oppressed tend to already get it.

Response to paleotn (Reply #10)

Zambero

(8,964 posts)
50. That's it
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:49 AM
Mar 2016

With humans, perceptions tend to arrive ahead of realities. Insight when accepted is a very good thing.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
17. "... there are major tribal and animal instincts that influence our psychology." True.
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:52 AM
Mar 2016

IMHO, liberals try to stress what we all have in common and how to work together for the common good. Conservatives tend to emphasize our differences and how we should fear and compete with each other.

The reality s that "major tribal and animal instincts" exist. The question is "what do we do with that reality?"

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
31. The reality is all humans share identical "major tribal and animal instincts"
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:23 AM
Mar 2016

and how we express and understand these instincts is through culture, which we learn, which changes over time, and which we can modify by our individual choices.

Zambero

(8,964 posts)
52. Incorporate the good
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:56 AM
Mar 2016

Work to change what is not good, and to the extent possible embrace cultural and innate differences, much as we would expect others to be tolerant toward ourselves.

 

Fast Walker 52

(7,723 posts)
44. my point was just telling this to people is unlikely to do anything by itself
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:36 AM
Mar 2016

what is needed is better education overall.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
41. There are also countless medical rationals for being mindful of race.
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:28 AM
Mar 2016

Different populations have wildly different risk factors for specific conditions. Race is an efficient shorthand for sifting through these likelihoods very rapidly.

I understand the sentiment, and it's nice, but as you said, it's an over-simplification.

paleotn

(17,931 posts)
55. Even among members of the same "race"
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 12:17 PM
Mar 2016

....there are different predisposing factors. Some even transcend our tribal definitions of race. That's just genetic diversity, what little Homo sapiens actually have from an overall perspective. From a macro perspective, race among Homo sapiens is meaningless.

brush

(53,789 posts)
46. So called racial characteristics are merely adaptations to climate.
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:42 AM
Mar 2016

Like the OP says, get over yourself America.

There's no such thing as race, and anyone who needs "race" to feel better than someone else . . . well, I feel sorry for them and the messy world of hatred they live in.

 

Fast Walker 52

(7,723 posts)
49. yes-- genetically there are no human races
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:48 AM
Mar 2016

But psychologically we see differences in our species. It's part of evolution and knowing who our relatives are.

Obviously we need to work past this, and most of us have. But it's still a deep instinct that requires education to overcome completely.

paleotn

(17,931 posts)
8. That is a fact....
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:36 AM
Mar 2016

...there is far less genetic diversity in Homo sapiens than most other species. Race is merely a tribal spandrel that needs to be dropped forever. We are one people. Of varying cultures, but nevertheless one people.

 

Trust Buster

(7,299 posts)
12. Physiologically speaking, he is correct. Culturally speaking, race is a HUGE issue in this country.
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:43 AM
Mar 2016

Minority voter suppression is not occurring in this country as a result of DNA. It's happening as a result of skin color.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
13. That is true but irrelevant in a social justice context.
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:46 AM
Mar 2016

Stating that there is no scientific fact to back up racism doesn't cure the problem.
POCs have had to endure four+ centuries of capitalist commodification and demonization of their bodies based on religious, economic, and 'scientific' 'knowledge' so Bill's statement, while correct, does little to reverse the social causes of racism.

Can I ask what prompted you to post this? Especially to a group of people that likely know this already?

kpete

(71,996 posts)
19. because, after 64 years on this planet...
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:54 AM
Mar 2016

I believe carbon based life forms of ALL kinds deserve respect.

We share a home & must learn to love or at least tolerate one another:

Whether you hail from Surbiton, Ulan Bator or Nairobi, your genetic make-up is strikingly similar to that of every other person on Earth, an analysis concludes today.

Although scientists have long recognised that, despite physical differences, all human populations are genetically similar, the new work concludes that populations from different parts of the world share even more genetic similarities than previously assumed.

All humans are 99.9 per cent identical and, of that tiny 0.1 per cent difference, 94 per cent of the variation is among individuals from the same populations and only six per cent between individuals from different populations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1416706/DNA-survey-finds-all-humans-are-99.9pc-the-same.html


Tolerance leads to peace

Peace on earth is what i strive for every day

kp

Response to kpete (Reply #19)

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
66. Again, I don't disagree with you on the science, being an anthropologist myself....
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 06:10 PM
Mar 2016

I'm curious as to why you are bringing this up in the current political climate.

How you and I feel about the science is irrelevant in a social justice context.
That racism is based on junk 'science', economic domination, and religious grounds is not changed by our modern understanding of 'race.'

Racism is very real to POC.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
68. I don't see how acknowledging the biological absurdity
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:45 PM
Mar 2016

of the racial constructs that oppress us somehow invalidates the social existence of said oppression. Furthermore, I have found that the dissonance between the *ideal* of race-blindness and the *reality* of racism is effective at shaking people out of their apathy and ignorance to racial oppression.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
15. There is no biological thing called "race" but there is a sociological thing called "race"
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:49 AM
Mar 2016

It isn't biological, but it does exist. We as a society made it, and it affects people strongly and every day.

ConsiderThis_2016

(274 posts)
16. The challege is...
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 10:52 AM
Mar 2016

... It's not what many religions claim. It's what missionaries and revivals are all about. Nothing divides humans more... hands down. Fact!

Response to Brickbat (Reply #21)

Response to kpete (Original post)

raging moderate

(4,305 posts)
56. Thank you so much! This is so true!
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 12:38 PM
Mar 2016

As a poor "white" kid, I lived this story. It hurt, and it was exhausting. That young woman on the right is not asking for free stuff; she is entitled to receive stuff that has been earned by her work and the work of her parents. And when I found out that other people were being treated even worse, it was an immense revelation that made me determined to speak up for social justice. Of course, I know that Black people have it much worse! Also Native Americans! And even Hispanic people! It is difficult to discuss this subject because we have so many nasty remnants of the webs spun by psychopaths. It is like feeling our way through a maze in the dark. Please, non-"white" people, don't have your feelings hurt. This is one of the things we are trying in our "white" group, hoping it will sink in and cure our group of its delusions of grandeur.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
29. I am happy to see this.
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:21 AM
Mar 2016

Whenever I get asked what race I am on questionnaires, I always check "other," then specify Human!

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
30. No such thing as God, either, but he still has a massive influence on how people live their lives.
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:22 AM
Mar 2016

Something doesn't have to exist for people to act as if it does, and to treat each other differently based upon those actions and beliefs in non-existent things.

kpete

(71,996 posts)
36. and "that" needs to change too
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:26 AM
Mar 2016

religion as tribalism

instead of as a force to elevate and bring us together

we need to evolve.....



9:30 am ET Approx. 1 hr. 30 min.
University of California, Los Angeles

Book Discussion on The Well-Tuned Brain

Peter Whybrow talked about his book The Well-Tuned Brain: Neuroscience and the Life Well Lived , in which he argues that human brains are not wired for modern society, in which long-term thinking is crucial for survival.?He says that humans' “ancient brain” focuses on short-term survival and responds well to our economic system, which rewards short-term gains, but is not well-suited to deal with major long-term problems like global warming.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?400360-1/book-discussion-welltuned-brain
-

Zambero

(8,964 posts)
34. Yes, Homo sapiens is indeed a single species
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:24 AM
Mar 2016

From a biological standpoint, race is an environmental adaptation to enhance survivability at a given latitude. Unfortunately, ignorance and remnant tribal instincts also persist as human traits that often override the scientific proof that our physical appearances are a superficiality in the larger human picture. Cultural differences have also evolved along with physical manifestations, which can tend to exacerbate negative stereotypes. Ironically, those differences as introduced and incorporated between human populations over time have greatly advanced the course of technology, not to mention appreciation for the arts and (one of my personal favorites!) international cuisine.

gregcrawford

(2,382 posts)
38. It appears...
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:27 AM
Mar 2016

... that this OP brought a surprising number of lower life forms out of the swamp. Quite a few "Message Auto-Removed." Pity those evil little scumbags can't be auto-removed; they certainly contribute nothing of value to the gene pool.

Iggo

(47,558 posts)
42. But there is racism. And there is bigotry.
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:29 AM
Mar 2016

That it's based on nothing surprises very few atheists.

FailureToCommunicate

(14,014 posts)
48. There is but ONE race. And it's a marathon, not a sprint. And Team Earth needs to
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:46 AM
Mar 2016

all work together or we'll get to the wrong destination way too soon.

OkSustainAg

(203 posts)
53. We need to
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 11:59 AM
Mar 2016

stop teaching that everything is competition. We can teach more cooperation. Class is also a cultural thing. we can eliminate elitism also.

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
54. "Race" is a social construct.
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 12:11 PM
Mar 2016

Certain phenotypes are gifted by society with greater opportunities and fewer impediments than are others.

sufrommich

(22,871 posts)
62. I'm not really making a statement on how we should
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 03:16 PM
Mar 2016

see race,but realistically,race matters,so does gender.

kpete

(71,996 posts)
63. of course race, gender and culture matter
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 03:26 PM
Mar 2016

The difficulty I have, is that our whiteness, brownness, queerness, whateverness is how we judge each other
that makes little sense to me




Why?

sufrommich

(22,871 posts)
64. Well "why" is the big question isn't it?
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 03:31 PM
Mar 2016

I don't know the answer,I just know that "all people should be treated equal" is true,while " all people are treated equal" is not.

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
71. Word
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:12 AM
Mar 2016

I am always suspicious of people who claim to be color blind, or who advocate color-blindness.

There are physical reasons why race matters, there are spiritual reasons why race matters, and there are cultural reasons why race matters, and dismissing these reasons seems to help (usually white) people in power more than it helps the disenfranchised people that it's ostensibly advocating for.

My mom is half Swedish and she had a knee replaced a few years ago. Apparently, not only are Scandinavians prone to unique joint problems, but some of the materials used in knee replacements can trigger an allergic reaction in people of Scandinavian descent.

There's a local Native tribe, the Winnemem Wintu. They're going to be flooded out by the raise of Shasta Dam, and their few remaining sacred sites will be under water. They've been on the land for tens of thousands of years, they were almost wiped out by whites in the 1800s, and they were already almost totally flooded out when the dam was built in the first place.

I've seen numbers floating around recently about the prevalence of HIV/AIDS in poor, black, heterosexual communities in the US, particularly in the rural South. It's horrifying.

In every one of these cases, denying that race exists seems like a way of sacrificing vulnerable people at the altar of convenience. It has the counter-effect of dehumanizing people.

Generic white people get generic knees. The culture of 150 Winnemem Wintu versus the needs of millions of people downstream doesn't merit consideration. Black people with HIV/AIDS can go to the same fancy specialist in Atlanta that the middle-class white gays go to, and spending money on clinics or outreach in rural areas is just a waste of time and money.

It's acceptable liberal code for "ALL LIVES MATTER!"

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
65. Not entirely true. We are one species, but the genetic variation is significant in medicine
Sat Mar 5, 2016, 03:47 PM
Mar 2016

Sickle cell, autoimmune disease and cystic fibrosis are just a few that are influenced by genetic makeup. Not to mention the physical differences between people: height, weight, skin color, eye color, hair texture, etc. Some of us resist certain diseases, like malaria, better.

Our genetic history is apparent. We can trace each ethnic group back to the places where they originated by using unique genetic markers. Eurasians even have neanderthal DNA mixed in. "Race" isn't something we constructed within our societies, it is coded in our DNA.

jonestonesusa

(880 posts)
69. False - you're leaving out individual differences among "racial groups."
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 12:09 AM
Mar 2016

Sickle cell anemia is not a common disease among all people who are considered "black," given that peoples of African descent are distributed worldwide and are reflected in ethnic populations across continents. Yes, genetic makeup can increase susceptibility to health conditions. But saying this is a long way from saying that whole physiologies, complex behavior, etc. is traceable to racial differences.

No one can answer a simple question such as "how many races are there"? Can you answer that question? We can't trace each ethnic group to the places they originated - we've had global migrations since very early in human history. The differences between ethnic groups are quite permeable. Are Austrians and Germans one race - are they distinctive from Italians and Greeks? These questions belong in the 19th century.

Get in better touch with the contemporary science on these subjects - many of these questions have been settled quite authoritatively.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
73. How do you explain racism?
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 07:29 AM
Mar 2016

I get the scientific reality, I really do. Now explain why racism exists, and please don't claim the scientific reality negates the socio-economic reality.

Rebkeh

(2,450 posts)
76. Oh god, not this again...
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 07:50 PM
Mar 2016

THIS IS NOT HELPING!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop.

Race is not real. Racism is very, very, very, VERY real.

You cannot address racism without acknowledging race.

 

UMTerp01

(1,048 posts)
77. There's no such thing as race --SAID NO BLACK PEOPLE EVER!!!!!
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 07:53 PM
Mar 2016

Ok yes...race is a social construct. There's no biological basis for it, but since there are real consequences of society's backwards ass views on race, which translates to racism, this falls on deaf ears to people who experience racism.

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
78. It is a condition caused by accidental temporary geographical isolation.
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 08:20 PM
Mar 2016

I like that we all look different. Prevents boredom.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Get over yourselves Ameri...