University of Houston Faculty Suggest Professors 'Not Go There' Because of Campus Carry Law

[struggle4progress]

FEBRUARY 26TH 2016
By: Alex Mierjeski

... A leaked photo of a powerpoint slide shown to University of Houston faculty instructs professors to tread lightly or altogether avoid "sensitive topics" in order to mitigate the potential dangers posed by the impending law ...

... the slide echoes concerns already voiced by many educators across the Lone Star state — that liberal gun laws on college campuses will inhibit or alter academic freedoms in and around the classroom. The UH faculty senate, which created the slideshow and displayed it at a recent meeting about the new law, already passed a resolution last year voicing those concerns ...

http://www.attn.com/stories/6176/university-of-houston-faculty-notes-campus-carry-law

[struggle4progress]

1. FACULTY SENATE RESOLUTION IN OPPOSITION TO FIREARMS ON CAMPUS

Whereas: Weapons designed to end human life have no place in the academic life of the University, except when carried by duly authorized law officers,

Whereas: The American tradition of a weapon-free campus was formulated by the University of Virginia Board of Visitors including Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (authors of the Second Amendment) in October 1824: “No Student shall, within the precincts of the University … keep or use weapons or arms of any kind, or gunpowder”,

Whereas: The American Association of University Professors, American Association of Colleges and Universities, American Federation of Teachers, and the Association of Governing Boards of Universities and Colleges regard “the presence of weapons as incompatible with their educational missions”,

Whereas: A joint statement by 29 scholarly societies including the American Academy of Religion, Latin American Studies Association, Law and Society Association and Modern Language Association expresses their concern that “the Campus Carry law and similar laws in other states introduce serious safety threats on college campuses with a resulting harmful effect on students and professors”,

Whereas: The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (SACS) principle 3.11.2 “The institution takes reasonable steps to provide a healthy, safe, and secure environment for all members of the campus community” may not be fulfilled when students carry firearms in instructional spaces,

Whereas: The diverse campus communities and free academic discourse are especially threatened by the presence of deadly weapons in teaching, research and living spaces,

Whereas: Faculty are a particular source of unwelcome news to students (and sometimes staff or other faculty) who often react emotionally and rashly,

Whereas: The Faculty of the University of Houston has repeatedly and strenuously opposed the introduction of deadly weapons onto the University campus,

Whereas: The Texas State Legislature through Senate Bill 11 in 2015 has mandated that concealed handguns on University campuses to be carried by persons who may have only a minimal level of training,

Whereas: The Texas State Legislature made no financial provisions for the implementation of Senate Bill 11, and

Whereas: Recruitment and retention of the best faculty, staff, and students are already now being harmed by the increased presence of deadly weapons to come.

Be it now resolved that:

The Faculty of the University of Houston continues its strenuous objection to the presence of all guns on campus.

The Faculty of the University of Houston asserts that it cannot carry out its core mission of excellence in education, research and public service where guns are present in educational spaces.

The Faculty of the University of Houston respectfully asks the Board of Regents of the University of Houston System and the President and Chancellor of the University of Houston to protect the uniqueness of University life, academic freedom and discourse, and the diverse populations of students, faculty, and staff by keeping deadly weapons out of University life.

The Faculty of the University of Houston asks the Regents and Chancellor to petition the Texas State Legislature to restore the protected academic space envisioned by the founders of the United States of America.

The Faculty of the University of Houston supports the First Amendment and Academic Freedom rights of its individual members to voice their opinions in this regard in publications, public statements, in campus spaces, and instruction.

http://fs.uh.edu/documents/events/FS%20SB11%20resolution%201.4120915154534.pdf

[TipTok]

2. Anyone that delicate probably shouldn't teach...

[Fairgo]

3. Please explain.

[GGJohn]

4. This hasn't been a problem with the other colleges that allow for CC,

why would Texas be any different?

[Hoyt]

38. What do gun fanciers like you consider a "problem?"

[ManiacJoe]

114. Any disruption.

What would you consider a problem?

[Hoyt]

119. Disruption? Like a non-white person on campus? After all, that's why red states have

such lax gun laws and so many gun fanciers.

[GGJohn]

120. You really are going off the rails lately,

your posts are becoming more and more bizarre.

[ManiacJoe]

121. Your gun posts used to be good for comic relief.

Now they are just odd bordering on racist.

[Hoyt]

123. Most gun fanciers are white folks afraid of other ethnicities. Go to any gun shw, store

or majority of ranges, and shoot some photos.

[ManiacJoe]

125. I am happy to say that your experiences are not mine.

Maybe you need to get a better group of associates.

[Hoyt]

128. Next time you are at one of those places, shoot some photos to show the diversity.

[Piasladic]

132. Thank You - nt

[GGJohn]

126. Why do you constantly tell lies about firearms owners?

[beevul]

129. Like you'd know.

You act as if you've met a significant enough portion of the 80+ million people who own guns, to be representative of something other than your own self expressed bigotry.

Everyone here knows, hoyt, that you haven't.

[melm00se]

131. firearm owner demographics

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/07/15/the-demographics-and-politics-of-gun-owning-households/

http://www.statisticbrain.com/gun-ownership-statistics-demographics/

[TipTok]

127. Forget bordering...

They are squarely in that category.

Though I will admit that his posts have gotten a bit more... manic...

[Buzz Clik]

52. You have no idea what you're talking about. None.

[GGJohn]

71. Umm, yeah, I do know what I'm talking about,

just because you say I don't doesn't make it true.

[procon]

67. Yet.

Considering the lengthy history of mass killings at universities, your assertion does not stand. Factor in a rambunctious campus life and gun toting twenty-something kids, and it's a tragedy waiting to happen. Why would adults support removing the restrictions on guns and create a climate of suspicion and intimidation, and make it easier for even one more kid to commit another senseless murder on campus?

[friendly_iconoclast]

69. At DU, we've been waiting at *least* five years for one of your posited tragedies to happen

I asked this question back in 2011, and AFAIK no one has answered it yet:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/en.wikipedia.org/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x382537#382537

"What *empirical* evidence do you have that legal CCW weapons at colleges are harmful?"

[procon]

83. Are you using CC to separate all the other mass shootings on college campuses?

It's a threadbare excuse. If you are actually trying to claim that students with CC guns have not yet engaged in mass killings, as if this is inconceivable in your thinking, that's a illogical as thinking you can win Russian Roulette. Thankfully such violent acts are not commonplace, but there are no guarantees that won't ever happen especially when having a gun readily at hand only makes it that much faster and easier to shoot someone. And once is one time too many.

With most of the students and faculty unarmed and justifiably intimidated and afraid by someone with a loaded gun in their midst, what do they see in these showboating CC kids with their CC guns? Someone who has an issue with immaturity, a bully, an insecure person with low self esteem, an unstable person of poor judgement who made the decision to bring a loaded weapon into a school, a place of learning, is the assumption that it was a personal gun show?

I'm certain that bringing CC guns into colleges are at least as harmful as carrying around a cobra, and the *empirical* evidence on both cobra venom and GSW is enough for any sane person to avoid them both.

[GGJohn]

87. Then why hasn't this been a problem at other colleges that allow for CC?

[procon]

103. Have you looked at the statistical data?

Just because there hasn't been a shooting yet, you understand that isn't the same as saying it will never happen. Set aside the narrow focus on numbers for a minute, and just say why anyone would think they needed to actually have a loaded gun at their fingertips in school... is Eng Lit really that threatening?

[GGJohn]

106. Hasn't been a shooting yet?

So what makes you believe that, despite many, many years of CC on other colleges, it's going to happen?

[procon]

108. Human beings, being far from perfect, make it more a question of when, not if.

Combine the age and gender of the likely gun bearing college student, add in alcohol, drugs, relationships, family, jobs, grades, emotions, tempers, depression, etc., and so forth, all distilled into a still maturing and not fully developed brain... yeah, what could possibly go wrong?

[GGJohn]

109. But again, we keep coming back to if that were true of CHL holders,

then why hasn't it happened yet in the many, many years at the colleges that allow for it?
Could it be that CHL holders are more responsible, mature, law abiding than you're willing to give them credit for?

[procon]

117. No, and no.

As I've already mentioned, the statistical data is extremely small -- much like finding a Supreme Court Justice who died in the last year of a President's term in office -- so it should come as no surprize that day hasn't come... yet. There are no absolutes, so trying to tell me that something won't ever happen is illogical.

As to your assertion that college age boys are responsible, mature, law abiding citizens... um, no. Strangely, women's brain mature earlier, but boya, not so much. Seriously, no one would let a child have a gun because they are immature and too easily influenced, and lack the complex decision making skills that come with experience and maturity. Now, there are numerous clinical studies that document the brain's development, like this one:

"These days, a consensus of neuroscientists agree that brain development likely persists until at least the mid-20s – possibly until the 30s."

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/18/at-what-age-is-the-brain-fully-developed/

[friendly_iconoclast]

138. Were you perchance a student at the College of It Stands To Reason?

Because countering empirical statistical evidence with dire claims that Something Bad is *Sure*
To Happen Because Reasons sure makes it seem that way...

[friendly_iconoclast]

94. Well, *not* allowing CCW didn't stop those, so you can't claim additional harm...

...from the practice. Also, how does a person with a concealed weapon 'showboat'?

Since you do not have empirical evidence of harm, yours is a position
identical to Robert Bork's theory of 'moral harm':

"The Tempting of America", page 123

https://books.google.com/books?id=jWbkvFhJStoC&pg=PA123&lpg=PA123&dq=%E2%80%9Cknowledge+that+an+activity+is+taking+place+is+a+harm+to+those+who+find+it+profoundly+immoral.%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=90z7rGldHP&sig=7tfPcfDPZclmJMR680pQH5l8Iws&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5jbzFj5nLAhUpuYMKHe48AxsQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9Cknowledge%20that%20an%20activity%20is%20taking%20place%20is%20a%20harm%20to%20those%20who%20find%20it%20profoundly%20immoral.%E2%80%9D&f=false

"But, in any event, physical danger does not exhaust the categories of harms that society
may seek to prevent by legislation, and no activity that society thinks immoral is
victimless. Knowledge that an activity is taking place is a harm to those who find it profoundly immoral.

https://www.aei.org/publication/tradition-and-morality-in-constitutional-law/

...(T)he institutions of the law, in particular the schools, are becoming increasingly converted to an ideology of the Constitution that demands just such an infusion of extraconstitutional moral and political notions. A not untypical example of the first is the entry into the law of the first amendment of the old, and incorrect, view that the only kinds of harm that a community is entitled to suppress are physical and economic injuries. Moral harms are not to be counted because to do so would interfere with the autonomy of the individual. That is an indefensible definition of what people are entitled to regard as harms...

[GGJohn]

72. Then why hasn't this been a problem at other colleges that allow for CC?

Is TX different from the other colleges?

[friendly_iconoclast]

81. DU moral-panic mongers have been studiously avoiding that question for years...

[beevul]

130. Following the exchanges in this thread...

Following the exchanges in this thread, its like watching someone dredge The Bay of Old Misfit Anti-gun Arguments.

Some of these arguments haven't seen the light of day for some time...

[friendly_iconoclast]

135. Moral panics, the philosophy of Robert Bork, Colonism...

This thread has all of that, and more...

[scscholar]

80. This

There's so many killings at colleges that it is just logical that reducing the number of guns will reduce the killings.

[GGJohn]

82. I'll ask again,

how many of those shootings are done by CHL holders?

[procon]

86. That's a ridiculous argument.

Are you actually trying to make a wedge between the words "concealed" vs "unconcealed"? It's sorta like saying red cars cause traffic accidents, but blue cars never do. A gun is a gun, and whether it's holstered, stuffed down your pants, or held in the hand, it has but one purpose. And that is diametrically at odds with the goals of students and faculty who come to school for the purpose of learning.

[GGJohn]

88. I ask again,

if it's such a bad and dangerous law, then why hasn't it been a problem at the other colleges that allow it?

[procon]

104. Isn't it the state that opened schools to loaded weapons?

It's not so much a question of "allowed" or not. Many schools have blocked guns, or tried to, only to be countermanded by legislatures with an agenda that has nothing to do with getting an education.

[friendly_iconoclast]

84. Feh-mere Colonism:

"Sergeant Colon had a broad education. He'd been to the school of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands to Reason, and was now a postgraduate student at the University of What Some Bloke In the Pub Told Me."

Terry Pratchett, Jingo

And if you think it isn't moral panic-mongering, kindly answer the following question that myself and others have asked at DU for years, most recently just upthread:

Why hasn't this been a problem at other colleges that allow for CC?

It's been legal at public colleges in Utah and Washington State for decades.
Where are the examples of some previously legal CCWer shooting up the place?

[procon]

101. You're just asking for the death count odds, yeah?

If that your best baseline justification, just Google the statistics, they're everywhere. People who seem predisposed to favor gun rights appear to minimize the shootings and focus more on the romanticism of guns and the historical or lawful role firearms, or even some heroic roleplaying fantasy of possibly preventing a crime.

Thankfully these mass school shooting incidents are indeed rare, but most people look only at the numbers and then dismiss the people and the impact these senseless tragedies have on our society. No one can ever excuse the mass shootings on campuses be trying to differentiate the manner in which someone brings a gun to a school because whatever the reason, no civilized society can ever be deem it “acceptable” when it kills their children.

Yes, you have the right to your guns. But here's the deal breaker, you do not have the right to make other people worried or afraid in thinking that you and you gun pose a very real threat to their safety.

[GGJohn]

107. ...

Yes, you have the right to your guns. But here's the deal breaker, you do not have the right to make other people worried or afraid in thinking that you and you gun pose a very real threat to their safety.

That's on them, not me.

[procon]

111. Said the guy brandishing the angry cobra.

The responsibility lies with the person who causes the threat. Otherwise, how would anyone distinguish you from the other guy with a gun who plans on shooting up his physics class?

[GGJohn]

113. What threat?

If I'm legally carrying concealed, you wouldn't even know, so how can I be threatening if you don't know?

[TipTok]

110. Where's the part in the Constitution...

... About having a right to never be scared or uncomfortable? Followed by the part where other people have to change their behavior to meet your needs whatever they may be?

Maybe in the fine print?

[friendly_iconoclast]

136. "The right to not be scared" is as ficticious as "moral harm"

[friendly_iconoclast]

134. Your last sentence is merely a reworded version of Robert Bork's "moral harm":

"But, in any event, physical danger does not exhaust the categories of harms that society may seek to prevent by legislation, and no activity that society thinks immoral is
victimless. Knowledge that an activity is taking place is a harm to those who find it profoundly immoral."

Robert Bork, The Tempting of America, p. 123

Kindly show us where "the right not to be afraid" is encoded into law.

Amazing how a right-wing ideologue's statist ideals can be openly proposed at DU...

[Major Nikon]

5. Anyone so afraid they need to take precious everywhere should stay at home

[Buzz Clik]

53. +1

[busterbrown]

6. So you’re saying that a teacher at the University..

should not have any concern that a couple of students in their class might be carrying gun..

Fuck that! how about holding a political meeting in your own home, knowing that some of your guests are carrying.. Yea right.. No problem?

[GGJohn]

8. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with that,

CC holders rarely act in an illegal manner with their firearms.

[busterbrown]

11. Yea, and with a little alcohol on their breath.

And you had no idea who they were? Yea I just bet you would be just fine..

[busterbrown]

12. Rarely? Yea fucking right.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/florida-teen-jordan-davis_b_2218957.html

How about a response!!!!

[GGJohn]

15. You cite stats from VPC?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

[sarisataka]

16. Not only VPC

but written by a holder of an FFL...

[GGJohn]

18. Let me guess,

Josh Sugerman?

[sarisataka]

19. Yup

the Executive Director of the VPC is a licensed firearm dealer in Washington DC



Interestingly that is also the address of the VPC.

[busterbrown]

20. and you get your statistics..... where?

What NRA adjunct.. Come on.. Please stop with your bullshit.

Fucking people who walk around in public with guns in their pants are doing so for what?

To protect their families? Who most of the time are not even with them?

[GGJohn]

23. Guns in pants?

Nope, in a holster.
I get my stats from the DoJ and the FBI's UCR, which are much more reliable than the VPC or the NRA.

VPC and NRA are both partisan hacks on the opposite sides of the firearm debate, they both pad the numbers or outright lie about them, which you fell for.

[Major Nikon]

27. I see you are no longer claiming they come from the CDC

So at least you are learning

[GGJohn]

30. I do claim that the CDC does publish the stats and it has something for everyone.

Got to hit the bed, 4:30 comes really early, have a good night.

[Major Nikon]

37. Nice dodge. "according to the CDC"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027628159#post32

[Major Nikon]

26. He said creme-de-la-dum Wayne LaPierre's numbers were from the CDC

So there's that

[friendly_iconoclast]

74. Allow me to throw some cold water on your moral panic-mongering with some statistics

Using the very VPC numbers that you have put so much stock in,
doing the math shows that CCW holders as a group have a lower murder rate than the UK.

And then there's these rather more germane figures, from 2014 (the last full year available)

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/ActLicAndInstr/ActiveLicandInstr2014.pdf

Active License/Certified Instructor Counts
As of December 31, 2014
Active License Holders: 825,957
Certified Instructors: 3,125




http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2014.pdf

Convictions of CHL Holders
111

CHL Holder
Percentage of Total
Convictions

0.2341%

[brush]

62. How then do you account for the 34 mass shooting in 58 days of this year then?

That's roughly one every two days.

How could you possibly think those odds won't hold true with people carrying guns on college campuses?

Hell, the one that started all the mass shooting happened on a college campus — Whitman at the Univ. of Texas.

[GGJohn]

70. I ask again,

were any of those done by CHL holders?

[brush]

116. Odds are yes.

Somehow you think all concealed carry holders are immune to having traumatic experiences that cause them to just lose it and start shooting, like the guy yesterday who was served with a protection order.

I don't.

[GGJohn]

118. Your opinion, mine's different. eom.

[Fairgo]

10. The end of discourse:

I've got a gun.

[TipTok]

46. Why would that be a problem?

[busterbrown]

7. I guess Tip Tok..

would be o.k.with strangers coming into his home ( lets say a homeowners association) with concealed weapons.. Yea. their all tough until they’re not.

[GGJohn]

9. If they're legally carrying concealed, how the hell would you know? eom.

[Major Nikon]

29. Mouth breathing and confederate flags are a pretty good indicator

[GGJohn]

32. So you're saying that CC holders are racists?

Pretty bigoted statement, got the proof to back that up?

[Major Nikon]

34. No, you don't have to be a mouth breathing racist to be a CC holder

But it's a great start.

[Hoyt]

40. Mist likely.

[TipTok]

47. Question...

Setting aside the unlikiness of my participation in an HOA, I assume a portion of any group likely is concealed carrying.

Why would it bother me?

[struggle4progress]

43. What classroom experience do you have?

Campuses generally rank as some of the safest environments, but they are also stressful environments, and there are predictable tense moments

A small fraction of students regularly lose control upon earning a low score on an assignment or test, for example

And anyone who teaches for a long time encounters a large number of students, so the weird cases add up

In decades of teaching, I've seen and heard all kinds of things: suicide notes on finals, students or their friends threatening instructors, students claiming to be in danger from nameless faceless people ...

I'd prefer not to hand back tests to armed students. I'd prefer not to have armed suicidal students in my classroom. I'd prefer students who believe somebody or other is endangering them not to come armed to my class and nervously await the appearance of their real or imaginary threat

[Buzz Clik]

54. +1

[Buzz Clik]

51. You don't teach.

So, just stop.

[TipTok]

75. One does not nees to have done a specific job...

... To have an opinion.

I'll bet you've had some thoughts on the president in the past. How can you if you've never done it?

Are you a veteran of the modern military? No? I'll thank you to keep quiet on America's military actions.

Etc.. Etc.. Etc...

Ridiculous on its face.

Any educator who is that much of a delicate flower should look into other career options.

[Buzz Clik]

85. Sure, I can forge an opinion on the color of God's eyes or the exact gene coding of dinosaurs...

... but it's based on nothing.

Any educator who is that much of a delicate flower...

You have no idea what it is your talking about. Nothing. Every word you write digs your own hole deeper.

Want another shovel?

[TipTok]

89. You talk a lot...

... But seem to be short on supporting facts.

I'm sure they are on their way, right?

[Buzz Clik]

91. You couldn't care less about facts -- you stated that already.

We're done here. Your opinion is completely meaningless to me, and you clearly have no regard for those who face the classroom other than to insult them.

Have the last word, but I won't be paying attention.

[TipTok]

98. I have nothing but respect for teachers...

... And know what a tough gig it is.

That is the exact reason the profession is better off without these particularly delicate souls.

[GGJohn]

93. LOL.

Don't you love those that are short on facts and long on hyperbole?

I see you have the Army logo, what was your MOS?

[sarisataka]

13. Still wondering

if anyone has data on the current rate of physical violence in Texas classrooms...

[stevenleser]

17. At Universities like what is being discussed in the OP? My guess is pretty low.

Universities will kick you out for that in half a heartbeat.

[sarisataka]

21. I would be interested in establishing

a baseline. Since gun violence is a subset of all violence, it is logical to assume any firearm related incidents will be a lesser number than the current rate.

Knowing the current rate will help determine if the change in the law increases, decreases or has no effect on campus violence.

[Helen Borg]

44. it is not the actual rate that matters

It's the perceived threat. Actual chance of dying by terrorism in the us is infinitesimal. And yet, look at where we are...

[struggle4progress]

45. Campus Safety and Security Data Analysis Cutting Tool

http://ope.ed.gov/security/

Summed over all Texas campuses, 2012-2014 comprise a bit more than 4.725 million student-AY, during which there were 3 murders/manslaughters and 411 aggravated assaults

That's a rate of about 0.06 per 100000 for murder/manslaughter and about 8.7 per 100000 for aggravated assault. Multiplying by 4/3 to correct for a 9 month AY gives an effective annual rate of about 0.08 per 100000 for murder/manslaughter and about 12 per 100000 for aggravated assault

The overall 2014 rates for the state of Texas are 4.4 per 100000 for murder/manslaughter and 243.6 per 100000 for aggravated assault.
See https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-4

The ratios are 4.4/.08 = 55 and 243.6/12 = 20

[sarisataka]

50. Thank you

As I posted elsewhere, that gives us a baseline to measure what, if any, effect the change in the law has on violence rates.

[Buzz Clik]

55. That is totally irrelevant. TOTALLY.

Anyone who teaches in a classroom full of late teens and twenty somethings has the absolute right to demand that they not be carrying.

[sarisataka]

61. Absolutely relevant

To determine what difference the change in law may have.

And no those who teach have the requirement to follow state law and school policy. They may make their own rules within the bounds of those superior regulations.

[Buzz Clik]

63. Yeah. Good for you. Way to carry the water.

[sarisataka]

65. ???

What water

Are you saying you can determine a rate of change with a single data point?

Or do you believe collegiate educators are above the law?

[beevul]

100. Wait, so some rights ARE absolute?

... has the absolute right...

Wait, so some rights ARE absolute?

Noted for future reference.

[GGJohn]

112. And if it's legal at their college,

they have the absolute right to tell them to fuck off.

[aikoaiko]

14. Most of this is just fear mongering. I have no fear of my teaching inciting a shooting.

Lawfully carrying concealed firearms on campuses has not been a problem where legal.

If its lawful for licensed people to carry in other public places, I don't see why that should end at the edge of a public campus.

[busterbrown]

22. Inciting is not the problem..

It’s about people walking around with guns who are pissed off about something and on edge.

[GGJohn]

24. And this has what to do with those that legally CC? eom

[busterbrown]

25. Because many of them are fucking nuts!

Just like the ones walking around who are not carrying.

I would suggest that the same %of people walking around with concealed weapons who are mentally on the brink is the same as those who are not carrying..

Are you telling me that those who are licensed for CC are automatically considered mentally more stable than those who are not carrying?

[GGJohn]

28. CC holders are statiscally much more law abiding that your average citizen,

that's a fact, and as in every group of people, there are a few bad apples, but CC holders rarely snap and start shooting people.

[busterbrown]

31. Link Please...N/t

Here’s what I found..Yea I realize it’s Josh Sugarman but can you refute the facts he is laying out?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/florida-teen-jordan-davis_b_2218957.html

[Major Nikon]

33. Which is a worthless fact often quoted by Wayne LaPierre's bots

Every person is capable of snapping and shooting people. The proliferation of guns in everyday settings simply insures that will happen more often.

[friendly_iconoclast]

77. "The proliferation of guns in everyday settings simply insures that will happen more often."

Actually, per the FBI, violent crime and murder rates have dropped in recent years, even as the
number of guns in the US has incresed markedly:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr

The Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program has been the starting place for law enforcement executives, students of criminal justice, researchers, members of the media, and the public at large seeking information on crime in the nation. The program was conceived in 1929 by the International Association of Chiefs of Police to meet the need for reliable uniform crime statistics for the nation. In 1930, the FBI was tasked with collecting, publishing, and archiving those statistics.

Today, four annual publications, Crime in the United States, National Incident-Based Reporting System, Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, and Hate Crime Statistics are produced from data received from over 18,000 city, university/college, county, state, tribal, and federal law enforcement agencies voluntarily participating in the program. The crime data are submitted either through a state UCR Program or directly to the FBI’s UCR Program.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr-publications

Crime in the United States

An annual publication in which the FBI compiles the volume and rate of violent and property crime offenses for the nation and by state. Individual law enforcement agency data are also provided for those contributors supplying 12 months complete offense data. This report also includes arrest, clearance, and law enforcement employee data. Use the new online UCR Data Tool to research crime statistics for the nation, by state, and by individual law enforcement agency.

[Major Nikon]

90. If dichotomous thinking were of much value, you might have something

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Now certainly ammosexuals like creme-de-la-dum Wayne LaPierre would like people to believe in Bizzaro World fantasies like all we need to address the problem with gun nuts is more gun nuts, but strangely enough violent crime and accidental death rates are not solely dependent on how many guns are out there. So I suppose if one simply ignores realities like improvements in ambulatory and critical care and similar reductions in non violent crime that has nothing to do with guns, you can probably draw all sorts of worthless conclusions.

[friendly_iconoclast]

95. There is also a decline in aggravated assault rates (which applies to nonfatal gun shot wounds)

So your objections are specious, gratuitous name-checks of Wayne LaPierre notwithstanding.

You don't happen to subscribe to Robert Bork's theory of "moral harm", do you?

"But, in any event, physical danger does not exhaust the categories of harms that society may seek to prevent by legislation, and no activity that society thinks immoral is
victimless. Knowledge that an activity is taking place is a harm to those who find it profoundly immoral."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7645383

[Major Nikon]

102. There's also a decline in non-violent crime

Child sex abuse rates also declined over the same period in question. I'm sure all of this is due to more guns.

If you simply want more opportunities to keep thumping on the correlation implies causation drum, I don't see the point in attempting substantive discussion with you on this topic. I could go to the gungeon and get all the LaPierre logic I wanted.

[friendly_iconoclast]

137. You have given no reasons aside from "I don't like guns" and a healthy serving of Colonism:

Sergeant Colon had a broad education. He'd been to the school of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands to Reason, and was now a postgraduate student at the University of What Some Bloke In the Pub Told Me.

Terry Pratchett, Jingo

[Hoyt]

42. But not more Law-abiding than those who qualify for a permit, but refuse to be be a gun toter.

[GGJohn]

79. That doesn't even make any sense.

Both are just as law abiding.

[Hoyt]

96. Sure it does, there are sseveral hundred million people who could quality for a toting permit,

but don't stoop that low. They are just as Law-abiding, or more so, than those who need a gun in their pants to go down town. So you are more Law-abiding than people who don't qualify for a permit, so what.

[friendly_iconoclast]

97. Of course you'd think that- you subscribe to Robert Bork's theory of "moral harm"

"But, in any event, physical danger does not exhaust the categories of harms that society may seek to prevent by legislation, and no activity that society thinks immoral is
victimless. Knowledge that an activity is taking place is a harm to those who find it profoundly immoral."

Robert Bork, The Tempting of America, p. 123

[Hoyt]

99. You are correct, there are many victims from you gun love and support of lax gun laws.

[friendly_iconoclast]

133. It wasn't *my* claim, it was Robert Bork's- and yours, as well

[TipTok]

48. Are you one of those folks...

... Who thinks there's a pedophile at every park?

Statistics is an amazing thing.

[busterbrown]

41. Please..

If you were attending a gathering would you feel safer walking around knowing that everyone one was CC. or knowing that no one was carrying? And please don’t respond with.. You never know who might be lurking outside the walls of the party..

[aikoaiko]

36. Im not worried about that oncampus or off.

[Buzz Clik]

56. If you don't see it a problem, then let those who spend every working day make the choice.

Having this rammed down their throats is the result of knuckledraggery. Period.

[aikoaiko]

68. Faculty don't get to decide which state laws apply to public campuses

It's really a simple thing. If a Texas resident can carry concealed off campus in public grounds and buildings, why not on campuses. They really isn't a good reason why campuses should be different.

[merrily]

35. Well, that really stinks.

[napi21]

39. This doesn't surprise me at all. When I first heard about the new law all I could say is

Gee, there can't possibly be any problems with that! I'm waiting to see how long it will take for a disaster to prove how insane the Governor & lawmakers were.

[TipTok]

49. You can check already...

... Since this has already been in place in several other states.

[Buzz Clik]

58. Exactly. It's not like shootings on college campuses don't exist.

It will happen. It will be bloody.

[GGJohn]

73. Really?

And just how many were done by a student/teacher/faculty member holding a Concealed Handgun License?

It will happen. It will be bloody.

So why hasn't it happened at the colleges that do allow CC?

[Divernan]

57. Are visitors to the Texas legislature allowed to carry? In the state courthouses?

[struggle4progress]

64. Everybody's now arguing whether guns can be banned from courthouses under current law

The 2010 law let everybody with a concealed weapons permit bypass Capitol metal detectors, which led to a bunch of people getting such permits just to reduce the hour-long wait-in-line to enter the building; this was later changed to allow anyone to apply for a $100 expedited pass

My reading of the amendments taking effect in August 2016 is that weapons will still be disallowed at open government meetings: see http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm

[Divernan]

59. Give all students a minimum "B" grade & raise it to A if threatened.

[ileus]

60. powerpoint hyperbole...

[Warpy]

66. Hey, Republicans like 'em ignorant

because they know ignorant people are their base. Keep their eyes on the job and their hearts on the fantasy of heaven and all will be as it should be in Republican World.

Some places should be sanctuaries away from pistol packin' assholes.

[longship]

76. Wonder if UT Austin will do the same.

They could lose some Nobel laureates if they recommended changing curriculum under threat of gunfire.

But dear, dear me!!!! How could any university recommend such a thing????

If I were a tenured prof, I would submit a conditional resignation. I will not adjust my academic standards under threat of violence. If this policy goes in, I will no longer associate myself with this institution, my resignation to become effective the day that the policy goes into place. I will encourage all my fellow profs to join me.

[friendly_iconoclast]

78. Lots of moral panicking on this thread, almost none of it borne out by statistics

[malaise]

92. Public Universities will conform

or be shot out of existence. This is frightening - where are those so called American values?

[Rex]

105. I can see RWing gun owners all in a tizzy over this!

Me, a Lefty gun owner thinks there should be no guns on campus for safety reasons. The police don't need wannabe Clive Bundy types running around being a great risk to their own safety. LEO are the only people that need to be running around with a firearm on campus. All these RWing gun crazies are one step away from being another Charles Whitman.

It would be interesting to find out what campus police think about this idea. Probably a few quotes on the topic by them.

[ManiacJoe]

115. Campus carry is not about the students.

The vast majority of traditional students are prohibited from concealed carry by the 21 age limit. Of the traditional students, only the oldest half of the senior class is even eligible.

Campus carry is about the faculty and staff. If folks fear them being armed, then those staff members need to be already fired.

[greymattermom]

122. There are a lot of students over 21.

It takes a more than 4 years to complete, even it you attend full time, and many don't or can't. I'm a professor at a medical school where they now allow concealed carry. This is a topic of discussion on campus, and very scary, not so much for classes, but for meetings with failing students. Our classroom includes hospital rooms too. YEP

[ManiacJoe]

124. Yes, there are students over 21.