I'm sorry but cutting off a little foreskin is

[boston bean]

Not like removing a clitoris and sewing up the vagina and labia leaving a tiny hole so urine can escape.

Its just not.

I will give you the point that neither should happen. But that doesn't make them equal in level of disfigurement and brutality. And the reasons for doing them are different and one reason is worse than the other.

Maybe someone can say something to convince me otherwise. Not sure.

[KamaAina]

1. Thank you.

[hedda_foil]

2. I don't think there's a woman here who could disagree with you.

[digonswine]

3. Agreed-

what are you responding to, please?

[Aristus]

12. A post from last week that screamingly proclaimed male circumcision the most horrible awful

child-abusive, useless, meaningless, Nazi-ish thing anyone could ever do to another person, ever in the history of the world, ever. Ever.



A description absolutely appropriate to the practice of female genital mutilation, however.

The replies were evenly divided between outraged agreement and mystified disagreement. Mine falls into the latter category. I'm circumcised, and it doesn't bother me a bit. And I said so. A number of repliers rushed to tell me that I have been permanently deprived of much more intense and pleasurable sex as a result of being circumcised, and that my parents are to blame. I may actually owe them a debt of thanks. Not to brag or anything, but I've had sex of such intensity and high levels of pleasure, that if sex using an uncircumcised penis is actually better, I'd be dead from sexual pleasure by now.

I've heard people overselling the evils of circumcision before, but not that stridently.

Anyway: circumcise your male child; don't circumcise your male child. Whatever the parents think is best. For religious, cosmetic, or hygiene reasons.

[digonswine]

17. Male circumcision and female circumcision can't be compared-

or if they are-a serious person needs to scoff at the comparison--

I would have personally preferred to have not been circumcised--though I have not perceived any ill effects

I would have to admit--I think about this about once a decade-and, then, not deeply.

One would have to be a tone-deaf MRA prick fuck-stick shitstain to compare the two--at all. But that's what MRA's do. And that's what they are!

[Aristus]

18. They can't be compared. And I did scoff.

I try not to take people who equate the two seriously...

[digonswine]

21. Yes-I saw that-

people who equate the two should not be taken seriously!

Anyone who would do so suggests a serious lack of awareness and are probably MRA assholes(read-complete assholes)

[bigwillq]

4. I'm very happy that mine was cut off

My foreskin, that is.

[DavidDvorkin]

5. Agreed

I've never understood how anyone could claim that they are in any way similar.

(For the record, I'm a circumsized man.)

[prayin4rain]

6. PLEASE tell me that no one on this board tried to equate the two. n/t

[Hekate]

30. Lessee, I've been here 13+ years, and every single time it comes up a bunch of men....

....claim it hardly ever happens, it's not so bad, we're kind of being hysterical, AND male circumcision is JUST LIKE IT.

Usually there's one or two guys who are prepared to argue the case the entire night. Really.

[prayin4rain]

37. Ugh. Yeah, I've seen some on this thread since I posted.

It's so tiresome.

[Crunchy Frog]

7. There are some forms of female genital cutting that are not as severe as removal of the foreskin.

A practice common in parts of Asia involves simply nicking or pricking the clitoral hood, but it's still formally classified as "female genital mutilation" and international organizations actively condemn it and are trying to stamp it out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/05/health/indonesia-female-genital-cutting-circumcision-unicef.html

Male circumcision as it is practiced in this country is far more severe than this, as the male equivalent would be a simple pinprick in the foreskin.

I believe that the focus should be on the severity of the procedure, and on the fact that the child cannot consent, and should not focus on one gender to the exclusion of the other. Otherwise we should simply decide that there is a level of genital tissue ablation that is an acceptable loss in the name of culture or religion, irrespective of gender.

I strongly believe that if there is absolute condemnation of it in any form for one gender, that it should be treated the same for the other gender.

Maybe someone can say something to convince me otherwise. Not sure.

[Mariana]

32. Most won't believe you.

Seriously, it seems that most people believe every single case of female genital cutting involves removal of the clitoris and complete disfigurement of the vulva, for the sole purpose of removing any possibility of the girl ever experiencing pleasure when she has sex. Furthermore, they think it is always done with a dirty piece of broken glass or some such object. They won't accept that there is a wide range of practices, some of which are not very harmful at all. None of it should be done to children of either gender. Adult men and women should be able to choose to have genital modifications done on themselves if they wish.

[Mister Ed]

8. Thank you. If this horrific cruelty were "female circumcision"...

Then "male circumcision" would mean slicing a boy's penis off altogether. It's very important that people understand this.

[pintobean]

9. Is it a competition?

[melman]

11. Seriously

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. You've been here long enough...

... and read enough from the poster to know the answer to that question.

Yes, so long as SWMBO is dissatisfied, we can't talk about anything else.

[Texasgal]

10. Right on sista!

[11 Bravo]

13. Has anyone tried to make a case that the two are equivalent?

[Aristus]

19. Take a look down thread.

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[mhatrw]

14. God asked for that foreskin.

He likes to collect them or something.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Jim Beard]

16. Actually, I have a friend who was injured in a high voltage elictrical accident that burned a hole

through his foot. The filler? The foreskin from a baby's penis that closed the hole. He did not have feeling in that area though.

All children are subject to all kinds of medical procedures with out the child's permission. My parents had my tonsils taken out, vaccinated and made me eat green beans.

[Glamrock]

31. Made me eat cabbage and noodles

And stuffed cabbage

[Fearless]

15. I agree that it's terrible

Any mutilation of a child, or anyone unable to understand and consent, is to me a human rights violation.

That includes both examples you've provided. To ask which is worse is like asking if rape or murder is worse, their both plenty bad and both completely unnecessary.

[roamer65]

27. I agree.

[Iggo]

20. Oy.

[madinmaryland]

22. You are correct. To make a true comparison, one would have to talk about cutting the

entire head of the penis off.

Something I do not want to contemplate.

[PersonNumber503602]

23. Are there many people saying they are comparable?

Most of the arguments I've seen either don't compare the two, or they explicitly state that it's nowhere near as bad as FGM.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

42. No one here is, at all

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Fail to mention FGM in an OP about circumcision, and it will be brought up immediately as proof of worse things in the world. If you do mention FGM in an OP about circumcision simply to acknowledge that, yes, there are worse things in the world, but let's talk about circumcision for a minute, then you are diminishing how bad FGM is.

[JPnoodleman]

24. Agreed, though I think its a practice that IMHO not going to be carried on.

I don't plan to circumcise any of my future sons, assuming I have sons.

IDK, its just a strange custom that seems irrelevant. I am neither Jewish, nor Muslim nor have any history of being as such.

It just seems like an oddball thing to keep doing.

[Skittles]

25. I don't think anyone said they were the same

that DUer said they are both unnecessary mutilation

which they ARE

[truebluegreen]

26. Are you expecting an argument?

[melman]

28. More like fishing for one

[truebluegreen]

44. 'Zactly.

[closeupready]

29. Naturally. Anyone who's ever 'considered the source' here

understands how some people thrive on conflict and argumentation.

[truebluegreen]

45. Yup.

[MellowDem]

33. It's widely accepted and is socially normative...

in the US, while FGM is not. The argument is not that they're exactly equal, but that they're both wrong, as you said, and the reason that argument has to be made here in the US is because the vast majority of people are cool with it here, and quite a few DUers fervently defend circumcision.

So while FGM is terrible, you're preaching to the choir. A lot of people are perfectly fine with circumcision here and in the US in general.

I don't believe your claim that the reasons for doing them are different, in many cases they overlap and are tied to patriarchal cultures and misogyny. The vast majority of male circumcisions worldwide are on Muslims and it is very much a religious and cultural ritual, as is FGM. FGM is most widespread in Islamic areas of the world. Much of the Muslim world doesn't even keep track of FGM, and only Afrcian countries with lots of need for western help get any sort of statistics.

Tradition, aesthetics, ideas of purity and cultural belonging, wanting to avoid social exclusion, in these ways the reasoning behind FGM and male circumcision overlap quite a bit.

Defenders of male circumcision hate hearing that though. And there are quite a few supporters on here.

[bigwillq]

35. Hello

Welcome to DU!

[bemildred]

38. Yes. nt

[cali]

39. Ooh boy. Are you in for it

Kudos for braving the inevitable onslaught of outrage.

Even though I chose not to have my son circumcised, I agree.

[B Calm]

40. Flame baiting?

[UglyGreed]

41. I do not dare to compare

the two but I do not try to belittle anyone else's point of view with the wording you have chosen. That little foreskin which was cut off of my son caused him to have a second surgery at the age of one and after that surgery he was a quite a bit different and now has a learning disability which no one can point out why. Flame me all you want but IMO belittling one thing to get your point across is not a good way to go about things.

[Matrosov]

43. To play devil's advocate

No, cutting off some foreskin and cutting off a clitoris aren't the same thing. On the other hand, it's also difficult to have an honest discussion about male circumcision when most men in the US are circumcised and - men always being proud of their penises - are going to defend male circumcision.

'Oh, I'm proud I'm cut, then I don't look like some dirty Eurofag'

[UglyGreed]

46. I am not circumcised

Last edited Sat Feb 6, 2016, 11:39 AM - Edit history (1)

and the ridicule and embarrassment I had to endure by the other boys as an teenager was not fun let me tell you. Once the boys in my neighborhood knew it spread like wildfire and I took a lot of abuse because my family came from another country and it was not their tradition. It was a big reason I agreed with my wife to have my son circumcised and to this day I still wonder if we did the right thing do to his complications afterwards.

[Matrosov]

47. Wonderful example

I honestly don't care too much either way. Some people who were circumcised as adults hated the procedure and the results, and some people think it is the best thing ever. If you look at the scientific journals, you'll find some that claim circumcision has a notable health benefit, while others claim that circumcision is bad for you (mostly in terms of reducing your sexual sensitivity).

On the other hand, I truly believe this debate is hugely influenced by our cultural norms. Most American men are circumcised, and consequently, there's something really wrong with you if you aren't cut. It's that stigma and reputation you talked about that helps reinforce the idea that you're a freak, unhygienic, homosexual, etc, if you didn't have your foreskin chopped off.

[UglyGreed]

49. Thank you for the reply

as you see I have mixed feeling due to my experiences, it is nice to see someone trying to have some understanding on the subject.