Ammon Bundy doubles down

[tencats]

Last edited Thu Feb 4, 2016, 09:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Ammon Bundy statement today from the jail after learning details of his indictment. He says that "taking over the refuge was not only right but was the duty of the people to do". If this is going to be his defense I don't think it's going to play out very well in court. It's not the government officials that will be on trial.

[valerief]

1. I'd love to see the IQ test results of these dumb shits. nt

[jberryhill]

2. They are probably quite intelligent

It's not a matter of their intelligence. It's a matter of what they believe.

There's a big difference there.

[valerief]

4. You have to be stupid to believe stupid shit. Sorry, but emotions

(faulty temporal lobe) can make you stupid even if you have a decent frontal lobe.

[jberryhill]

11. No, not at all

They are very steeped in a quite complex alternate interpretation of how US law works.

While it is, at the end of the day, stupid shit, by no means can a genuinely stupid person learn to work within the reasoning system defined by that alternate interpretation.

[randome]

15. I'm not sure about that.

The inability to foresee the consequences of their actions doesn't say much for 'smarts'. Plus, they were totally unprepared for their takeover of the refuge. It's like they are walking in a dream state.

[jberryhill]

18. Two words: William Shockley

Intelligent people can be fooled into believing all sorts of horseshit.

Yes, they certainly could foresee that the tyrannical government which had exceeded its authority to own the refuge in the first place would indeed trample their constitutional right to stand up to tyranny.

Getting arrested and charged was certainly something they foresaw. And now, they foresee that they will be vindicated in court and declared national heroes for standing up the unconstitutional usurpation and tyrannical oppression of their asparagus.

William Shockley was a Nobel prize-winning physicist and one of the three inventors of the solid state transistor which ushered in all modern electronic technology.

He was also a complete and utter racist loon.

[randome]

23. I don't think they did foresee getting arrested and charged.

I think they fully expected people from all over the country to join them. That is incredible naivety if nothing else. Walking in a dream, did I say? Living in a bubble is the same thing. They walk around the ranch every day without having a reason to get out of bed each morning. When all they need is to find something else to do. Instead, they concoct the idea that the world is askew somehow, and shadowy forces prevent them from feeling fulfilled.

Maybe they are not 'stupid' as we understand the term. But they are psychologically ill, IMO. It may not be something that will show up on tests but I think there is something 'wrong' with them.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Rex]

29. Their actions from the moment they took over their target proved they are dumber then dirt.

Despite the protests from one particular poster in this thread, their actions betray them.

[NutmegYankee]

5. Agree - they have the "sovereign citizen" belief system.

Thankfully our courts know just where to put such believers...

[Wellstone ruled]

9. Appears this was his fall back plan if things

did not go his way. The next chapter will come after the 24th,then we should see who the money players are.

[Downwinder]

7. Does not sound like an Attorney worded that statement.

[jberryhill]

16. Actually, one probably did help with the wording

He's got two ways to deal with the charges against him.

One, is to plead insanity. He's unlikely to get traction there, since he'd probably pass any psychological testing. Aside from that, he would not agree to that defense.

What he needs - since the facts of what he did are indisputable - is what is called an "affirmative defense". An affirmative defense is where the facts are admitted, but there is some reason why I should not be held liable.

For example, you get a speeding ticket while taking a bleeding person to the emergency room... or "self defense" in various criminal cases, etc.

What he's aiming for here is a "justification" defense. He will, of course, lose, because not only will his justification theory get no traction, but it is likely to be barred by the judge from being put to the jury, because it is a lame theory as a matter of law.

But this is a pretty normal sequence of events for this sort of thing, and is independent of cause or political orientation. For example, there are sometimes people who trespass on military facilities, are arrested, and then want to "put the government on trial" during the proceedings for their trespass charge. People who vandalize abortion facilities are big on this particular route as well.

Then, when the judge bars them putting on their justification defense, they will claim the court system is stacked against them and they would have won but the judge unconstitutionally barred them from defending themselves.

These things follow a pretty standard script.

[Rex]

12. Why would you assume they are intelligent?

They seem to be dumber than a box of rocks.

[jberryhill]

20. Two questions

1. Are racists intelligent?

2. Do you know who William Shockley is?

If your answer to question 2 is "no", then find out and ponder your answer to question 1.

[Rex]

22. So they take over a place with no strategic value, brought no supplies and hide behind a tarp.

Still want to pretend they are smart?

[jberryhill]

24. I didn't say they were smart

I said they don't have low IQ's.

IQ isn't everything it's cracked up to be.

Quite obviously, Ammon Bundy was capable of starting and running his own truck business (and even figuring out how to get SBA benefits in the process).

They don't believe the Constitution grants the federal government an unlimited power to own land.

Their theory is this:

Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution grants Congress the power:

"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;"

They are simply reading that as limiting property ownership by the federal government to "Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings".

They don't believe the Constitution grants Congress the power to designate wildlife refuges, or any other land for anything other than forts, magazines, etc..

It's a belief they have.

I know lots of extremely intelligent people who believe stupid things.

Yes of course they knew that they'd be arrested. Now they have their opportunity to prove to an astonished court that they were unlawfully arrested because the federal government didn't have the authority to own that land in the first place.

It's ultimately a failure of an argument, but you have to be somewhat intelligent in order to understand it, even though it is wrong.

Their bigger problem is more one of ignorance, than failure of intelligence. These types of people can read the Constitution, they interpret it for themselves, and don't seem to appreciate that 200+ years of judicial decisions kind of matter when interpreting the Constitution. However, it was not, as a matter of fact, implicit that the Supreme Court would have the sort of authority to invalidate (and conversely validate) federal legislation when the thing was written, either - which is also one of their points. They don't NEED to bother with 200+ years of decisions interpreting the Constitution, because those were all an abuse of authority in the first place.

It's fine to believe those things. Certainly there were people who believed those things before 1803, or Marbury v. Madison wouldn't have been an issue reaching the Supreme Court in the first place.

But of course they expected this would end with either (a) the feds surrendering or (b) their arrest.

Again, one doesn't have to be stupid in order to believe stupid things. If you honestly believe that, then you put yourself at risk of thinking you are immune to it. Nobody is.

[Rex]

25. Right being smart and having a high IQ are not the same thing.

What else do you want to make up out of whole cloth, I have all night.

EDIT - Explain post #22 and actually elaborate without getting off topic. Nobody said because they believe X, they are stupid...they said they are stupid, because they did not plan ahead and come off 'looking like' idiots...no they are idiots you give them too much credit.

Oh so owning a business means you are intelligent? I read he is up to his eyeballs in debt...but yeah he is smart...sorry not buying it.

So being able to read at a basic level makes you intelligent? Really?

Thanks for the illuminating conversation.

[Rex]

13. I agree some of the dumbest fuckers I've ever heard of.

Belief system aside, it has nothing to do with that and all to do with IQ...I think you hit the nail on the head.

[hifiguy]

3. I hope he likes the pokey.

He's gonna be there for a looong time.

[Egnever]

6. Heh

Going to ride that crazy train right to the end.

[Electric Monk]

8. You "don't think it's not going to play out very well in court." ?

So, you do think it's going to play out well in court?

I'm guessing you didn't intend the double negative.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. After at least a year for a felony, he also looses

His right to guns and in Nevada to vote.

Irony

[Rex]

14. Trolls usually double and triple down.

Then again with very low IQs you cannot expect much.

[Archae]

17. I think he knows damn well he's screwed.

But he wants to continue setting himself up as the latest "martyr for the cause," so the support and money keep rolling in.

[gratuitous]

19. Bundy will find out what many who have gone before have found out

A court of law doesn't much care why you broke the law, just that you broke the law. If Bundy thinks he can turn the trial into a platform for detailing his lunatic beliefs, his attorney should advise him to think again. It's not so much what he doesn't know that's going to hang him out to dry, it's what he knows that isn't true that's going to have him spending some time as a guest of the government in the Graybar Hotel.

[jberryhill]

21. Nailed it here:

"It's not so much what he doesn't know that's going to hang him out to dry, it's what he knows that isn't true..."

Yeah, these guys aren't dumb, but they are tremendously misguided and misinformed.

[L. Coyote]

26. Lots of tweets saying he is delusional, this one tops the list:

Bundy several others indicted by federal grand jury

[Rex]

28. No no...they are all Rhodes Scholars! Series!

Sorry, Road Scollars!

[PeoViejo]

27. They expected all 'Patriots' to rise-up and stand with them.

Once the 'Patriots' found that they were short on snacks and had to bring their own, things quickly fell apart.

[L. Coyote]

30. More like they expected ordinary people to rise up and follow a "Free Stuff" rebellion.

In other words, they though they could impose local anarchy by armed force, and they promised the locals all the land the federal government owns. FCS, they organized a militia under a shadow government before they took the refuge. But, people here are not stupid like some people we won't name individually.