It's been almost a week. Bundyites are free to come and go. They have electricity, running water,

[cali]

Last edited Fri Jan 8, 2016, 10:10 AM - Edit history (1)

heat, a bunkhouse, a stocked fridge. Some are even leaving to work and returning. They've been allowed to bring in more arms and ammunition. Why on earth would they just politely leave???

<snip>

Operating costs at the refuge are small. Utilities are paid for courtesy of the federal government. The facility has a bunkhouse that firefighters use in summer. One video from inside the headquarters kitchen shows the wife of one of the militants taking food from a well stocked refrigerator, preparing to cook grilled cheese for lunch and spaghetti for dinner.


<snip>

One circumstance on the occupiers' side is their relative freedom of movement. Law enforcement is not preventing anybody from coming and going from the refuge, and some appear to have taken advantage of that to maintain their civilian lives.

Duane Ehmer, an Oregon man who appears in a YouTube video inside the compound, wrote on his Facebook page that he left the refuge to work.

"I just got back home from the bundy/ Hammond stand off I have to work a few days before I go back," he wrote Jan. 5.

A little later, he wrote, "bringing more guns."

<snip>
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/with_little_outside_support_mi.html#incart_story_package

[Logical]

1. Its a fucking joke, the FBI seems to love white gun nuts! nt

[hobbit709]

2. They should have cut utilities on day 1.

[cali]

4. It really is unbelievable.

[jberryhill]

9. Can you answer two questions for me?

1. The place is in a wetland, and the HQ has a large pond nearby. Are you certain that the water is supplied from the outside?

2. It's winter. Does the refuge have the budget for fixing the pipes after the standing water in them freezes and bursts the pipes?

I'm going to guess that the people on the ground know a whole lot more about the plumbing there.

[cali]

14. I don't know how the water is supplied, but it is likely

there is an electric pump. Maybe the water is supplied by the pond or by a well.

[jberryhill]

16. One other question, since I am not a plumber

Even in systems where water is pumped from a pond or well, don't you pump the water into an elevated reservoir of some kind to supply pressure to the taps?

I've always been connected to a suburban water system, so I'm not familiar how this works with wells etc..

So, in a well-connected system, how is pressure supplied by the pump to the taps?

I thought the entire point of these:



...is to pump water from underground into a water tank, in order to supply water to the plumbing.

[cali]

19. Sorry, you've gone beyond me. Heck, my water is gravity fed from a spring.

[jberryhill]

20. Perhaps this is why they don't "cut the water" then.

I believe most plumbing systems are "gravity fed". If the water is lower than the tap, then it is pumped into a water tank of some kind above the tap.

Also, if there is a hot water heater on the premises, then it holds 50 gallons right there.

Funny, that you're so focused on utilities.

You put "running water" in your subject line. Excuse me for thinking you had placed some emphasis on it.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. People With Wells In Rural Areas. . .

. . .usually have some sort of pressure tank, or bladder tank to create the pressure. That way they don't have to build a water tower to generate water pressure.

The windmill you're showing is what pulls the water UP out of the ground. You'll notice there is no tall tank next to it. The thing is tall to avoid the laminar flow effect along the ground surface.

I live about 60 miles south of Chicago. Drive 4 miles in 3 of 4 directions and you're in farm country. Everyone has wells. Nobody has an elevated storage system.

So, either the pump has a pressure switch that turns on every time someone opens a faucet or flushes a toilet, or they have a way to have the reserve of water under pressure with a air pressure bladder that helps squeeze the water through the system.

[jberryhill]

25. Thank you

[jberryhill]

18. What about question 2?

If various of the buildings had been winterized, and these guys opened the valves and starting running the water again, then aren't you going to burst all the pipes if you turn the water off?

[cali]

21. Your questions seem irrelevant to the larger issues.

Forget the water. These guys are free to come and go, to solicit donations, to bring in supplies and more guns, etc. Funny, that you're so focused on utilities.

[jberryhill]

23. "Forget the water"

Well this is one of several threads in which you have been suggesting escalating the situation with "cut the water". I was only addressing the water thing in the first place.

If you don't know what may or may not be involved in cutting the water then, yes as you put it, "forget the water".

[cali]

26. Lets discuss they're being allowed to leave and return. You down with that?

[jberryhill]

27. Okay - "running water" is in the subject line of your OP

Given the prominence of "running water" in your post, I thought it was of importance to you.

All of the people involved in this thing are not located at the ranch. They are all over town. They have been following people, conducting surveillance, etc..

You can surround the ranch, and there are people who are going to shoot the people in your perimeter in the back.

I am confident that neither the FBI nor local law enforcement are in great need of armchair quarterbacks.

[ProfessorGAC]

24. Then You Fix The Pipes Later

If they're buried so shallow that they'll freeze. They may be buried deep enough that it's not a real problem.

Either way, you don't worry about the plumbing if the option is to allow criminals to continue to trespass.

[jberryhill]

30. Out of whose budget?

The budget for the NWS is completely strapped and a lot of facilities have to "make do" as they can.

I would suggest that you fix the pipes, instead of me, as I am unlikely to be able to do it.

If by "you", you mean some unspecified other person to fix the pipes, then I expect someone is going to have to pay for that.

Aren't frozen bursted pipes a threat to more than just the pipes?

[ProfessorGAC]

31. Sue the Trespassers

Criminal prosecution doesn't preclude the ability to sue for restitution in civil court, right? (Not a lawyer, took a couple of basic law classes in business school, for reasons i'm certain you get.)

And unless they're freezing inside the building, they're won't be any damage.

But, if they do freeze, and you send people in to remove while frozen the water damage is minimal. Now, that assumes we get them out of there before a natural thaw.

[jberryhill]

37. Sue who?

The people who cut off the water causing the pipes to freeze?

The occupiers did not cause the pipes to freeze.

Let me ask you this....

Someone walks into my house and chains himself to a fixture inside. I ask him to leave. He doesn't leave. So I go outside and light fire to my house in order to get him to leave.

I'm not going to sue him successfully for the loss of my house.

Your lawsuit is premised on two notions:

1. That the occupiers made it necessary to cut off the water, specifically, and

2. That pursuing a lawsuit over the resulting damage would be cost efficient. Our legal system does not award costs and fees to the winning side in most instances. It's cheaper to fix the pipes and eat the cost than to assign salaried staff of the DoJ or pay outside counsel in order to sue them for it.

[geek tragedy]

39. Criminals bear responsibility for all foreseeable consequences of their actions.

Of course, the Feds approach to the militias is to cower in fear, so moot point.

[jberryhill]

44. That's why I brought up "burning the house" to remove a trespasser

I don't see anyone "cowering in fear" and neither do you.

[geek tragedy]

45. of course we don't see them cowering in fear--they're in hiding

The Feds have now twice shown they will back down with their tails between their legs the nanosecond white wingnuts start brandishing weapons.

[ProfessorGAC]

46. #2 Makes Sense

Because i think that the answer to #1 is yes. I know that's just opinion, and could be argued both ways.

These people admit to being business owners who are trespassing. That would be assets which could be pursued in civil court. Not saying we'd win, just saying could do it. But, your point #2 makes more sense since it would be cheaper to just cut out the pipe, replace it.

I own an older home. When we moved in, all the water piping was galvinized. We bought it at around 35 years old. At around 40 years, the water pressure was getting intolerable because the galvinized pipe all had sclerosis. (3/4 inch pipe with the free flow space of a pipe cleaner) We replaced all the water piping in the house with copper. Whole project was only a couple grand. So, i guess if you want to freeze 'em out, you live with the pipes breaking and spend the money to fix them.

At some point it's a matter of principle, is it not? The government just can't let them stay there forever. They don't the place.

[jberryhill]

48. "The government just can't let them stay there forever"

I doubt the government is going to do that.

I just don't see a meaningful connection between getting them out of there and "cut the water".

[woodsprite]

53. Charge them rent and a proprietary access fees since they're not letting

refuge work be done.

[Blue_Tires]

28. +1...

Nice to know the rest of America is out working while these freeloaders get to play G.I. Joe in the woods all day while the wives make them PB+J with the crust torn off...

[RandiFan1290]

3. Next we will hear the Feds are delivering their supplies. nt

[cali]

5. I would actually not be surprised

[Bettie]

7. They're probably already negotiating

turn down service and a massage therapist.

Nothing but the best for white boys who have a hankerin' to shoot them some Feds.

[Bettie]

10. and by negotiating

I mean, they're waiting for them to arrive.

[Scuba]

6. WTF? If they were black or brown they'd be dead.

[Bettie]

8. Of course they would

it is disgusting.

[cali]

11. It's hard to dispute that.

[spanone]

12. standoff? it's more like a government/ criminal love-in

[DetlefK]

13. I've read that cutting the utilities to this compound is too tricky.

They can't cut off the utilities to this compound without cutting off residents.




A simple proposal:

As they come and go anyway, put out arrest-warrants for them.
- Breaking&entering
- armed sedition
- conspiracy to commit a crime (They themselves said they would shoot federal agents who try to do their duties.)
- theft (They are effectively stealing the utilities.)

They either turn themselves in, or the police will be forced to arrest anybody lending material support to these criminals... like their families...



You ever come out of this place, you gonna stay inside another place for a looong time.

[CanonRay]

17. Should have been done immediately

There's got to be a power transmission line to the building. It's pretty remote. Cut the damn thing.

[SoCalDem]

32. Arrest them at Dennys or the Circle K (or whatever their convenience stores are called)

Letting these goons wander around and then hunker down with their tarps at the facility is crazzzzzy.

[jberryhill]

49. Provoke a shoot-out in town?

[Paladin]

15. This will continue to happen, until these vermin are confronted and defeated.

Wonder where the next Well-Armed White Guys hoe-down will occur?

[spinbaby]

33. At least charge them rent

Damn freeloaders.

[MohRokTah]

34. Because coddling Rightwing white Christian terrorists is the Murkan way.

Next they'll murder somebody and nothing will be done.

[amerikat]

35. I think law enforcement is doing exactly the right thing.

I'm sure they are being watched by the FBI. I don't want to see another WACO style intervention. That would only inflame other like minded types to join in or take over other sites.
I suspect at some point the local sheriff will start arresting them as they leave or come back. Then turn them over to the federals.
My personal prediction is they will just drift away and go back to where they came from.

Social media is trolling them hard, calling them yallquaeda,Vanilla ISIS etc. At some point they will just feel so embarrassed they will go back home.
Early on in the take over they mention that they didn't prepare very well and needs socks and snacks.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=804968780924&set=gm.772553439555420&type=3
Snacks for Yallquaeda

[geek tragedy]

47. They didn't arrest them after they pointed weapons at government employees

at the Bundy ranch.

Pretty clear that the orders from D.C. are to coddle these terrorists.

[KingCharlemagne]

52. Letting them come and go freely?? What the Fuck??? The last time a Democratic

President permitted such bullshit was James Fucking Buchanan! What the fuck is Obama's and Lynch's problem???

[Bluenorthwest]

36. It's the way the Federal authorities are doing it, they are in charge

Anything that is going to be done will be done by Federal authorities making the orders, because they are giving the orders.

[geek tragedy]

38. The Feds are afraid of the militias. Afraid. Militia types

are above the law as far as the Feds are concerned.

They're worried that the militias will start a guerilla campaign across the west.

Note that no charges were ever filed against the terrorists who pointed their weapons at federal agents at the Bundy ranch.

Letting fear drive federal policy is only encouraging armed insurrectionists. At some point armed insurrection needs to have consequences.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. Note that the gang at Bundy ranch are the same gang at Malheur, not different but the same men.

They let them go free to attack neighboring States. That is not supposed to happen.

[geek tragedy]

41. And they didn't lift a finger against them after they

dispersed. No arrests while they're at McDonalds or Walmart. Complete impunity, because they're white and have guns.

[KingCharlemagne]

57. See James Fucking Buchanan - nt

[arely staircase]

42. So my tax dollars are now paying for their vaca?

Time to shut down camp tax moocher.

[GusBob]

43. As Thom Hartmann indicated yesterday turning off utilities could damage the buildings

I would think there is also a risk these yahoos would set themselves, and the buildings, on fire in an effort to stay warm.

I agree though stopping traffic in and out would be a smart.....maybe that is a way the Feds can keep better track of them

Time and public sentiment is against them.....wait 'em out

[woodsprite]

54. Public sentiment will turn against the feds if they continue to

let them have free access and restock weapons and ammo, bring their families in, etc.

[flamingdem]

56. Yesterday the sheriff said they should negotiate while things are "good"

- at a good point. That is what must be going on. Let's hope they're not too leniant.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

50. If they get to leave of their own free will and without charges, I'm going to move in and...

...all my fellow homeless/near-homeless DUers can come with me.

[L. Coyote]

51. The monitor-chair quarter-backing begins, playing into the #RegisteredRepublicTerrorists plans

It does not matter what officials do, their will be someone who finds fault in in, especially those siding with these registered Republican terrorists.

[flamingdem]

55. I suspect they're negotiating

and that the FBI owes them nothing so that they're suspicious of the terms.

If action is taken they'll start getting trigger happy. Better an agreement is reached.

I'm in favor of the long game. No one should die over this especially because they'll become movement martyrs. I'm not sure the patriot followers understand how funny this is to us, for them it's fo'real.

[valerief]

58. Okay, now I want to see TONS of black men with guns surge upon the place and say, "We

support wildlife." That's all. Fuck up the white assholes' message. And, of course, live stream the goings-on, because you know the white assholes and their authority enablers will try to frame them with something.

[KamaAina]

59. Running water? Hell, they're better off than Flint!

[Crunchy Frog]

60. Appeasement is well known to be the

most effective way of dealing with violent, armed insurgents.

I expect this country will be run by warlords within a couple of decades.

I almost wonder why I even bother voting anymore.

[blackspade]

61. WHAT THE FUCK?

A fantastic display of white supremacy.