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demwing

(16,916 posts)
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 05:04 PM Dec 2015

Who presents the most pressing internal threat to America - Theocrats, Racists or Oligarchs?

I know there's some bleeding over between categories, and an argument could be made that Oligarchs use religion and race to keep the lesser classes disunited, but I'd like to hear what DUers think.

America's Most Pressing Internal Threat:


69 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
Theocrats
5 (7%)
Racists
1 (1%)
Oligarchs
63 (91%)
Show usernames
Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll
64 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Who presents the most pressing internal threat to America - Theocrats, Racists or Oligarchs? (Original Post) demwing Dec 2015 OP
Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks - The 1% cantbeserious Dec 2015 #1
Oligarchs. The racists and theocrats are tools of the oligarchs. corkhead Dec 2015 #2
Exactly. polichick Dec 2015 #3
Bingo FreakinDJ Dec 2015 #8
That's my take on it, too. (n/t) SMC22307 Dec 2015 #11
Precisely KansDem Dec 2015 #30
indeed. as are we all. tools not, humans is how they see us all. Hiraeth Dec 2015 #37
Oligarchs, facilitate, promote and finance the unnatural Misery of the World . orpupilofnature57 Dec 2015 #4
I don't make much of a distinction between them Rebkeh Dec 2015 #5
Yes, please share your view when you have time. /nt demwing Dec 2015 #6
The Three Headed Dog - elaboration Rebkeh Dec 2015 #58
They're all arms of eachother JackInGreen Dec 2015 #7
It's the oligarchs who . . . snot Dec 2015 #9
Oligarchs. CrispyQ Dec 2015 #10
WOW. A Bazillion recs 2naSalit Dec 2015 #31
Oligarchs. . no contest. . n/t annabanana Dec 2015 #12
The alliance of the three that calls itself the Conservative wing of the Republican Party. nt eppur_se_muova Dec 2015 #13
The racists and religious fundies are just tools being manipulated by the theocrats. Scuba Dec 2015 #14
Neither. You don't attack success. These people are rich because they're innovative NYCButterfinger Dec 2015 #15
Keep Dreaming The Impossible Dream - The People Know Better cantbeserious Dec 2015 #16
Work hard. Produce. NYCButterfinger Dec 2015 #17
This Citizen Notes One Has Bought The 1% Propoganda - Hook, Line And Sinker cantbeserious Dec 2015 #19
"Work hard. Produce." Why does that sound so familiar? beam me up scottie Dec 2015 #21
That poster must be joking. Nobody thinks like that. Rex Dec 2015 #41
Have you seen their other posts? beam me up scottie Dec 2015 #61
I want to be successful. That's all. I don't think that NYCButterfinger Dec 2015 #64
I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass, Blue_In_AK Dec 2015 #46
Ha! +1 stopwastingmymoney Dec 2015 #48
Love that movie, and John's choice of lead actors: beam me up scottie Dec 2015 #62
that's what they say! lol wendylaroux Dec 2015 #55
Most of them are not "innovators." They are manipulators, tax evaders, thieves, and predators. hunter Dec 2015 #23
Approximately 1/3 of them are the children of old money Taitertots Dec 2015 #24
Maybe 10% of them, sure. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #26
Success at mass consumer fraud? Dream on with that dream of yours. Rex Dec 2015 #40
The oligarchs call the shots. senz Dec 2015 #18
Other-The poll makers. Kaleva Dec 2015 #20
I can think of hundreds of groups posing more of an internal threat than "Oligarchs" MohRokTah Dec 2015 #22
Of course you do. Hiraeth Dec 2015 #27
Picks up forum stalkers always cracks me up. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #28
I can't help but notice your theme is all. I have no desire nor need to stalk you but, Hiraeth Dec 2015 #29
Multiple identical responses in threads in multiple forums? MohRokTah Dec 2015 #32
move along? maybe I *should* tag along. like that pesky little fly that irritates so much. Hiraeth Dec 2015 #34
Stalkers crack me up. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #35
crack is whack. Hiraeth Dec 2015 #36
ha!! wendylaroux Dec 2015 #56
Not even remotely close: oligarchs. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #25
I see it as an Iron Triangle... 2naSalit Dec 2015 #33
Oligarchs, it wouild seem, moondust Dec 2015 #38
Theocrats and racists Matrosov Dec 2015 #39
All of the above. They work closely together, all on the same team against tblue37 Dec 2015 #42
None of the above Spider Jerusalem Dec 2015 #43
Superb comment. eom saltpoint Dec 2015 #54
All courtesy of the oligarchy. ronnie624 Dec 2015 #60
a lot of people today seem to think that the current politics of "Jayzus will throw Arks from Heaven MisterP Dec 2015 #44
Lions and tigers and bears, oh, my... Blue_In_AK Dec 2015 #45
All of the above. Which are also known as Donald Trump supporters. Initech Dec 2015 #47
I love how you have made the decision to portray them as three different groups Number23 Dec 2015 #49
I also added commentary, of sorts demwing Dec 2015 #50
"Oligarchs" are by no means the only people who use religion and race to advance themselves Number23 Dec 2015 #52
who the hell actually knows any? wendylaroux Dec 2015 #57
Which is exactly my point and why this OP misses the issue so badly it's embarassing. Number23 Dec 2015 #59
I can't think of anything nice to saltpoint Dec 2015 #51
I Went With Theocrats ProfessorGAC Dec 2015 #53
All of the Above fredamae Dec 2015 #63

Rebkeh

(2,450 posts)
5. I don't make much of a distinction between them
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 05:22 PM
Dec 2015

Together they are like a three headed dog.

If anyone wants me to elaborate, I will. Right now I'm elbow deep in the kitchen making our feast for this evening. It will have to wait a few hours.

Rebkeh

(2,450 posts)
58. The Three Headed Dog - elaboration
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 08:46 PM
Dec 2015

Like the other commenters, I think of the oligarchy as the head of the snake but it would be remiss to rank it as more relevant than the others. The other two support the oligarchy, but it is not a one directional movement of power, they all need each other in order to meet the primary objective of supremacy and they are equally dangerous.

Oligarchy

The agenda here is power, not simply wealth and without division among the masses, the oligarchy cannot meet its terms of superiority and command over others. Race and religion are simply the easiest ways to gain control because that is where the fears of the masses are the most potent. Fears relating to class and elitism are strong, but the financially comfortable lack the quantity of votes necessary to support the 1%, the wealthy still need the lower and working classes. Eradicating racism and religion would not change much of anything, the oligarchy would simply adapt and find new fears and anxieties to exploit. As it stands now, however, colonialism and its long term effects, like racism, is part and parcel of the necessary evils in order to make any gains of hegemonic control.

Racism

It was within the throes of colonialism that racism was invented and it has been effective beyond the imagination. It still exists to this day in the same degree as it always has, it just went underground in its most visible regions and took on new forms in the others. Subtle forms. So subtle that racism continues to thrive in bastion liberal cities like Seattle and L.A. as well as in deep blue states like Maryland (think Baltimore). This is the core of the racial tension within the liberal big tent and too many have made the assumption that racism is over. It’s not over, it’s hidden. The thing that keeps it alive is the idea that one person is superior to another - which is an immediate threat to some people, more so than any fat cat that lives miles away in complete ignorance of pocs’ reality of existence. Who can think about Wall Street while dodging police bullets? Keep in mind the historical context; during colonial times, the oligarchy kept getting richer and richer, eventually they couldn’t keep everyone in line because revolt was imminent, so they had to delegate some of the work. They did this by creating racial division (divide and conquer) among the lower classes, the workers. Making some of them higher in rank and putting them on slave patrol (the origin of the American police force) set the standard of inequality, making it seem like an inevitable default. This formula is still going strong, even in the most progressive of progressive places. Therefore, even if the oligarchy fell, racism would continue and those who replace the oligarchs would default to the previous status quo of superiority over people of color. And THAT, would start the whole mess all over again, bringing us full circle. The fall of the oligarchy doesn’t guarantee equality for poc, power abhors a vacuum and the desire to restore the status of (formerly) middle class whites does not necessarily translate into equality for poc. As long as equality is, consciously or otherwise, perceived as a threat to white working class privilege, racism will continue. As long as racism continues, society as a whole keeps right on doing exactly what it is doing now, racism and inequality for poor whites are linked. (see video below) So no, we cannot disregard racism in order to tackle the oligarchy.

Religion

Religion is its own category in a sense because unlike race, it is a distortion rather than an outright fabrication. The oligarchy loves to normalize lies that serve them, such as “survival of the fittest” (on the contrary, the most cooperative tend to thrive) and that workers are commodities rather than living, breathing human beings. They distort things brilliantly and if we are not careful, we can find ourselves believing up is down and left is right. But I digress. The vast majority of religions are positive, calling for humanity, empathy and care for one another. This notion of caring for one another is anathema to what the oligarchy sets out to do, therefore it makes sense for them to undermine it. But why bother doing that when we can be manipulated into undermining it ourselves… again I digress (this subject is one on which can soapbox all day long) …. The evangelical aspect of the conservative end of the spectrum shares an origin with the slave patrol idea, only it otherizes people based not on race directly, but also on sexuality and gender. It’s a nasty trick and sadly, it works. It even has progressives trying to undermine religion itself, which only indicates that the distortion has been successful. As long as people are locked into insider and outsiders (“their God is wrong, ours is right”), the handlers have everyone focused on identity and division. Anyway… the point with religion is that it’s not actually a threat, its distortion is the real danger. When we try to tackle religion, we only tackle shadows and projections. At the end of the day, religion and worship are constitutionally protected rights anyway.

The oligarchy, racism and distorted religion are symptoms, they are not the problems themselves. Greed, a fabrication and a distortion – at their core, every one of those methods of control use division as a tool and division is necessary to keep one idea alive: that a gain for one person is only possible with a loss for another. Ultimately, we need cultural change and in terms of politics, those in power can affect the conversation necessary for cultural change in deeply profound ways. This is why I choose Bernie, the others want to work for incremental change, superficial change. They want to tweak the system that is already in place which would do little for course correction. Obviously, we have to think bigger, we have to do more. A lot more. I realize the risk averse don’t want to take that chance, but I don’t see how we can make fundamental change comfortable. By its very nature, change is uncomfortable. Besides, the way we progress is just as important as progress itself.

Video:

snot

(10,530 posts)
9. It's the oligarchs who . . .
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 05:57 PM
Dec 2015

are looting the rest of us and brain-washing and sowing hatred among us, to keep us from uniting against them.

 

NYCButterfinger

(755 posts)
15. Neither. You don't attack success. These people are rich because they're innovative
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 08:11 PM
Dec 2015

You don't attack people who are innovate, who create products. Oligarchs can be corrupt, that's the way the system rolls. Bernie needs to discuss more issues such as paid sick leave or some other thing. You can't tear down the oligarchs. It's their wealth that they created.

 

NYCButterfinger

(755 posts)
64. I want to be successful. That's all. I don't think that
Sun Dec 27, 2015, 11:50 AM
Dec 2015

Bernie can take Wall Street down. I don't hate Wall Street. The greed, yes.

hunter

(38,317 posts)
23. Most of them are not "innovators." They are manipulators, tax evaders, thieves, and predators.
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 12:07 PM
Dec 2015

Example of an innovator: J.K. Rowling

Example of a thief, predator, tax evader, and manipulator: Almost any billionaire.

 

Taitertots

(7,745 posts)
24. Approximately 1/3 of them are the children of old money
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 12:15 PM
Dec 2015

The idea that people are getting rich by innovating and making products is laughable because it only applies to a tiny minority of the 0.1%

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
40. Success at mass consumer fraud? Dream on with that dream of yours.
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 02:42 PM
Dec 2015

So crime is not a big deal to you at all...good to know where a username stands.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
22. I can think of hundreds of groups posing more of an internal threat than "Oligarchs"
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 10:57 AM
Dec 2015

Of course, I reject the notion that "oligarchs" even exist in out nation.

Hiraeth

(4,805 posts)
29. I can't help but notice your theme is all. I have no desire nor need to stalk you but,
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 12:41 PM
Dec 2015

some comments should not pass by un-noticed. I hate to leave you hanging, pardner!!

Hiraeth

(4,805 posts)
34. move along? maybe I *should* tag along. like that pesky little fly that irritates so much.
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 12:55 PM
Dec 2015

smooches.

and yes two is a multiple, barely. thank god for one.

2naSalit

(86,650 posts)
33. I see it as an Iron Triangle...
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 12:53 PM
Dec 2015

it is the structure of power, we are experiencing a particularly aggressive and successful formation at present. The three are interdependent and, therefore, destabilization of one will initiate a reformation of the entire formation.

I took a pass, not an "either/or" question.

moondust

(19,993 posts)
38. Oligarchs, it wouild seem,
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 02:20 PM
Dec 2015

can pretty much buy the others/whoever they want to do pretty much whatever they want. That's too much leverage over society in general and democracy in particular.

 

Matrosov

(1,098 posts)
39. Theocrats and racists
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 02:37 PM
Dec 2015

Oligarchs would have no power if it weren't so many Americans wishing we were living in a time prior to 1861, back when owning other humans based on the color of their skin and slaughtering the native 'savages' for not being Christian was perfectly normal.

They are successful in tapping into concerns about race and religion precisely because race and religion still play such a huge role in modern American society.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
43. None of the above
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 04:07 PM
Dec 2015

the most pressing "internal" threat to America? The horrendously broken and dysfunctional US system of government. Demographic shifts have made it much less likely (although not impossible) that a Republican can get elected president. However state-by-state demographics, partisan redistricting, and rules on representation have made it equally likely that Congress will have a Republican majority. The result is ongoing deadlock, potential for increased stupidity like government shutdowns/debt ceiling limits refusals/default, increasing partisan rancour, and very possibly civil war (let's not forget that the Confederacy seceded because Lincoln got elected; it may seem like a longshot now, but the longer the bitter partisanship and total dysfunction continues the more likely another civil war probably is.)

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
60. All courtesy of the oligarchy.
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 10:19 PM
Dec 2015

I don't see anything wrong in your post, but the chaos you describe, is very obviously a result of a political system designed to serve the interests of the wealthy.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
44. a lot of people today seem to think that the current politics of "Jayzus will throw Arks from Heaven
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 04:50 PM
Dec 2015

if the seas rise (unless you're queer or Irish)"

in the mid-70s there was a huge backlash movement--well-funded in accordance with the Powell Memo: even pharmacists turned against "asking locals what plants they use" as woo-woo; so the neocons, the televangelists, and a whole spectrum of other reactionaries are all part of the same movement: after all, the media and national politics would never listen to

in the 60s America worried that God was dead of particle physics, Americanization, and just having a lot of appliances: even in the early 70s people who took this "Hhhrist" guy (is that how you pronounce it? Kryste?) seriously--theism was supposed to disappear with time, like an isotope, and now it had a few popular songs like the Doobie Brothers--they were still hippie Jesus Freaks, seen as closer to the Premies than to Father Mackenzie in his Googie cathedral in the burbs; the mid-decade revival of conservative and right-wing Christian political influence was a full-on system shock

racism of course has been baked into the system since Bacon's Rebellion, but since the 70s it's become subtler--at the national level it's not so much Wallace-style "my opponent wants those types to come into your neighborhood" (which you still see really strongly with anti-transit and but shifted more "do you know what X people say about your kind?" or "y'know, Y people are coming for your jobs"--and then "people who beat up on Z people are against free trade--let's pass it to spite them"; it's common coin of the realm

Number23

(24,544 posts)
49. I love how you have made the decision to portray them as three different groups
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 06:44 PM
Dec 2015

as though one can't be a member of all three. And you put "racists" as though they are some group that lives somewhere set apart from everyone else and are not entrenched in every single subset of this society, affecting the lives of people of color in every single way.

But considering how poorly and tragically DU has ALWAYS discussed issues of race, the way this poll is worded isn't all that surprising. Nor are the responses.

 

demwing

(16,916 posts)
50. I also added commentary, of sorts
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 06:47 PM
Dec 2015

"I know there's some bleeding over between categories, and an argument could be made that Oligarchs use religion and race to keep the lesser classes disunited, but I'd like to hear what DUers think. "

Number23

(24,544 posts)
52. "Oligarchs" are by no means the only people who use religion and race to advance themselves
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 06:50 PM
Dec 2015

I have known a shitload of racists in my life. Never known a single "oligarch."

saltpoint

(50,986 posts)
51. I can't think of anything nice to
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 06:48 PM
Dec 2015

say about any of those groups.

I might add 'Chuck Todd' as a fourth choice. I don't like him either.

ProfessorGAC

(65,076 posts)
53. I Went With Theocrats
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 06:53 PM
Dec 2015

I see tons of folks said oligarchs. Can't disagree, but the biggest danger is that the theocratic horde is doing their bidding, and they won't see the light because they think they're doing god's work.
There have been oligarchs that got it at some point. Carnegie, Ford, others. (I admit they have executives who didn't get the memo.) They saw, through reason, that there was no logic in accumulating indefinitely until there was no consumer class that made them rich in the first place.

But, the theocrats are doing their bidding, are easily plied, and are people for whom reason is a useless concept.

That's why i think the growth of this ilk is more dangerous.

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