Politics in the United States will not change materially

[MineralMan]

until we do a better job of killing the influence of Calvinism in this country. The beliefs of Calvinists, insofar as they are tied up with the idea of predestination and the concept of the "elect" are at the core of the inequalities we see every day. While that's a simplistic view of things, it has considerable merit in looking at why we live in a society dominated by social and economic classes.

I won't belabor the point with a long explanation, but here are two links that might help, especially if you follow the links in those articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

This is just a launching point for study and discussion, reallly.

[Scootaloo]

1. Well no duh

The idea that the rich deserve to be rich and the poor deserve to be poor is disgustingly central in our politics, and early protestantism is the main source.

Is this a purely academic note for you though?

[MineralMan]

2. It's an observation.

It's far from a new observation for me. It is a reality in this country, and one that doesn't appear to be evident to everyone. In fact, it's one that is rarely considered by most people at all.

How does it inform my political positions? Not much at all. I'm a total pragmatist when it comes to retail politics. We do better when Democrats are in control, and worse when Republicans are. So, I'm a Democrat in a society that has only two political parties. In the larger picture, not much else matters when it comes to government here.

I live in a society I cannot control, so there it is. I choose the better candidate who can win. It's that simple.

What would I prefer? Simply, socialism. I will not live to see that happen here, though.

[Scootaloo]

3. With an outlook like that, you might as well spend election days watching cartoons.

[MineralMan]

5. By no means. I will spend election day driving people

to the polls. I will spend the time before the election convincing people to go and vote. Who wins makes a difference in people's lives. That I cannot have the society I would prefer is irrelevant. I am just one person. I work for improvement, not an ideal.

Your suggestion is insulting, I think. Of course I am involved in politics. Elections matter. They matter very much. I'm just pragmatic with my choices. Who will be the Democratic nominee for President? That doesn't really matter all that much, frankly. Presidents have only so much power in our system. It's a matter of general direction, not specifics.

I'll be out there, as usual, trying my best to help Democrats win the offices they run for. That's what I always do.

What will you be doing on election day?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. “It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder;

“It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.” ― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

[MineralMan]

7. Yes, but it's our nature, really.

Religion reflects society. Gods are the inventions of their societies. Scripture reflects the mores of the society that wrote it. We just happen to have one that lends itself to some pretty ugly mores.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. "Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs,

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I don't think it's in our genes to kill, rape, etc. I think it resides more in our fear of being killed, raped, etc. We seek out safety in strength, strong leaders, violence, and powerful Gods, out of fear. Alas, it never works.

"There is no safety in the cosmos." Alana Watts

[MineralMan]

12. Well, I tend to disagree with you, there.

I think competitiveness and tribalism are inborn characteristics of human beings. The negative behaviors you list are part of that. It takes rational thought to eliminate those tendencies, and there's precious little of that going around, it seems.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. But, most of humanity has been able to overcome those traits.

The vast majority of people don't kill, rape, and act insanely.

Despite the pressures put on them by the leaders/religions/tycoons, most people never act savagely.
Anne Frank

"Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart." Anne Frank

Is kindness, compassion, and love, also in our genes? I don't know but experience and knowledge of human history tells me that most people are more likely to, at least, not harm you than they are likely to.

[MineralMan]

14. The majority of people do very little, really.

We are, however, a warlike species. We are able to coexist at some level, of course, but we contend with each other on an almost constant basis. Resorting to violence, clearly, is not a positive thing to do, on a personal or societal level. It rarely benefits the person who engages in violence, either.

Still, a goodly portion of humanity is either on the verge of violence or preparing for the possibility of violence. We require complex laws and a system of punishments to prevent it from happening more often than it does.

I'm afraid that I can't share your confidence in human beings, generally. I think societies have created rules and behavioral controls out of necessity, and those strictures often break down, even in societies that pride themselves in their peaceful nature. We have, for example, more firearms in the United States than we have people. It does not reflect well on human nature that such a thing is true.

I'm not encouraged, frankly.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. In either case, it's up to us to participate or choose not to participate.

All of us have the capacity for violence or kindness. All of us want much the same things. Food, shelter, security, sex, etc. How we go about securing these "natural" desires is, in the end, up to us as individuals. One of the natural things we have to capacity to do is make decisions.

As Nietsche said, "Insanity is rare in individuals....". We can choose not to join the insanity.

[yallerdawg]

6. My life changed when I asked a Calvinist employer for a raise.

COO of bank, of course. The perfect cliché! The most philosophical rejection I have ever heard!

"If God wanted me to have more money, I would already have more money."

He also informed me that, "No matter how much money you have, you will never think it is enough."

From that moment on, I have been acutely aware of how little value employers have for workers.

You are exactly correct, sir. This shit is real, MM!

[MineralMan]

9. Most Calvinists aren't that open with their beliefs.

More's the pity.

[chalmers]

8. I agree

It's also the origin of Prosperity Gospel

[MineralMan]

10. Absolutely.

It's also the origin of Christian Reconstructionism and Dominionism, far more dangerous things. Many of the Republican candidates are Reconstructionists or Dominionists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology