"Fuck the NRA, fuck the Republicans. Fuck you and your fucking guns."

[Brickbat]

https://popehat.com/2015/12/07/talking-productively-about-guns/

Most of our talk about guns is cultural signalling. We use guns as shorthand for a bundle of ideas. I saw this on my Facebook feed last week:



I'm sure this felt good to the people who made it and distributed it, and to the like-minded people who saw it. But it didn't persuade anyone — other than, perhaps, a few more people to vote Republican. It's a classic example of guns-as-culture. In this bundle, guns mean Republican, guns mean conservative, guns mean not liking President Obama, guns mean religious, guns mean socially traditional, guns mean rural, guns mean football and Nascar and using fewer than five words to order coffee. The intended message may be "fuck the people who don't seriously debate gun control because they accept vast campaign donations and they are afraid of NRA-led primary attacks and who refuse to even consider whether there's something we can do about madmen spraying crowds of innocents with bullets." But your message is "fuck you and your flyover-country Daddy teaching you to shoot in the woods behind the house when you were twelve and fuck the church you went to afterwards."

This goes for both sides. Consider this, also recently popular:



Your intended message may be "the government doesn't get to determine my rights based on its assessment of what I 'need," nor do fellow citizens who may arbitrarily determine I don't 'need' a wide variety of things based on their concerns." But what you are conveying is that "the people who want gun control are God-hating, kale-chewing, coastal-elite socialists who want to imprison your pastor for not marrying gays."

A lot of this is deliberate. We use culture-bundling to get out the vote, or to associate one policy position with another one. It's as American as apple pie. But is it working for you here? Reasonable gun control advocates, how far will you get with the message "a vote for reasonable gun control is a 'fuck you' to the hicks"? Gun control opponents, for how long do you think you'll thrive with "allowing gun control is like allowing gay marriage"? If you want to culture-bundle, have fun. But don't pretend you're actually going to change anything.

The bolded point isn't the only good point. I thought it was all useful.

[pintobean]

1. Other than the people who live for the gun debate

most of what I see here are emotional releases. It's understandable, given the amount of violence, and the inability to find a workable solution. But, whether it's on social media, or at holiday gatherings, insulting the shit out of each other doesn't do anything, besides making new enemies.

Good article. Thanks for posting. K&R.

[Brickbat]

2. Glad you enjoyed it. It's really, really hard for most people to talk about guns without getting

emotional, no matter their politics or belief. It's vital to move past it and hear each other, rather than relying on gotcha memes and name calling.

I'm thinking I might get more clicks on this if I use "Fuck you and your fucking guns" as the OP title. Might change it just to see what happens.

[951-Riverside]

5. Politics don't mean much when you have a bullet in your chest now does it?

It's vital to move past it and hear each other

I'm done hearing the side that wants to keep these weapons of war, destruction and death flowing freely to anyone and everyone who wants one. I'm done with all of the threats of civil war and "we're going to kill you if you try to take these weapons from us" coming from these people. I'm done with all of the mass killings, gang violence, random attacks, terrorism, etc all due to these weapons of war being so readily available.

I'm done!

[Brickbat]

9. Well, it's always good to know where people stand.

Are you interested in changing the minds of people who don't agree with you, or are you working to mobilize people who do agree with being "done" with "weapons of war"? Or are you just "done"?

[beevul]

10. "I'm done hearing...". Thats appropriate, since you never seem to have listened.

I'm done hearing the side that wants to keep these weapons of war, destruction and death flowing freely to anyone and everyone who wants one. I'm done with all of the threats of civil war and "we're going to kill you if you try to take these weapons from us" coming from these people. I'm done with all of the mass killings, gang violence, random attacks, terrorism, etc all due to these weapons of war being so readily available.

This is an example of why mainstream America is done listening to folks like you:

You are deliberately conflating weapons of war with civilian legal firearms. You may not know or even care what the difference is, but the people that do (the majority), know you're telling a lie.

[951-Riverside]

15. Guns are Guns, Firearms are Firearms and Guns aka Firearms are used in war.

Why?

Because it makes killing pretty fucking easy

This is an example of why mainstream America is done listening to folks like you:

Yeah, I know people like me are pretty boring and why talk to someone like me when mass shootings are all the rage?

There's memorials, funerals, personal stories from families, stories of survival, stories of heroism, etc. All pretty exciting stuff for the mainstream media to cover.

You are deliberately conflating weapons of war with civilian legal firearms. You may not know or even care what the difference is

Please explain to me what the difference between a firearm used in war zones and a firearm available to American civilians.

Does one shoot lasers and the other shoot brass?

Does one give you a nice little skin burn and the other kill you?

I honestly don't get your argument here

[beevul]

17. If one hates guns I suppose.

Please explain to me what the difference between a firearm used in war zones and a firearm available to American civilians.

In 1934, a line was drawn between true weapons of war, and civilian legal firearms.

That line differentiates regular civilian legal firearms, from short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, fully automatic weapons, and destructive devices/mines/bazooka etc.

Those other things listed AFTER 'civilian legal firearms' are actual and true weapons of war, and are generally illegal for sale or use or possession, with the exception of the NFA process.

Civilian legal firearms are not, and in addition, no military in the world outfits its troops with regular old legal firearms from the civilian market in America.

[Lizzie Poppet]

14. Spot on!

I've been an enthusiastic participant in gun debates for dog's years...but I've still been routinely trashing gun threads here in GD. As you say, they're mainly just emotional releases...and most of the emotions are pretty ugly. Neither side has a monopoly on that ugliness, either. I'm all for catharsis...but that doesn't mean I want to participate in it.

[Brickbat]

3. Kick for the grabbier title!

[petronius]

4. LOL! For the record, I did click and read the linked column with the earlier title,

but I'm guessing the new one will prove far grabbier...

(It's an interesting article, thanks for posting!)

[Brickbat]

11. Glad you enjoyed it, no matter the title.

[pintobean]

6. Sex sells

I like it!

[Brickbat]

12. It's a gun thread, so might as well...

[Orsino]

7. We've had plenty of tone policing over the years.

I'm afraid that peaceful change may be impossible without a lot more FUs.

[Brickbat]

13. Does peaceful change come from insults?

[Orsino]

18. Yeah, from enough of them.

Enough voices in concert can and do effect change. Unfortunately, only widespread anger seems to bring us together with a coherent message. The FUs are just a side effect.

[pintobean]

23. Keep up the good work

[Orsino]

25. Is that movie an argument for or against politeness? n/t

[Eleanors38]

31. Actually, an illustration of the "tipping point."

[pintobean]

32. When was politeness tried?

[Blecht]

20. Shame is an underrated tool

One of the biggest factors leading to our current mess is the loss of shame. Fox News and Rush Limbaugh told people they no longer needed to be ashamed of being bigoted assholes.

If these gun wackos faced ridicule everywhere they went, then they might be forced to look inward.

[Orsino]

24. Yep. Jon Stewart dropped a shame bomb on the Daily Show the other night.

Made a great case without a lot of cussing.

[Paladin]

8. Wow! First "Tone-Policing," and now "Culture-Bundle."

All the way-cool terminology being offered up in GD, today!

[Dr. Strange]

16. My safe-space isn't big enough for all this new terminology.

[Blecht]

19. "Reasonable"

Close to "sensible".

?w=188&h=256

Thank you for your concern.

[LanternWaste]

21. People lecturing me that I can or cannot change a thing bemuse me.

People lecturing me that I can or cannot change a thing bemuse me due to its inherent uselessness rationalized as something else by bias and pretext.

I'm surprised the author didn't stoop to the petulance of using Social Justice Warrior in his righteous moralizing.

[hatrack]

22. How DARE we speak up, how DARE we fight back, how DARE we "say what we think"?!!?!??

I mean, really, how DARE we??!!!?!!

[Jesus Malverde]

26. Ironic on so many levels.

Fuck the pentagon, fuck unending war, fuck the drones, fuck the war mongers.

[Iggo]

27. I prefer the words "cowards" or "fraidy-cats" to "pussies."

Other than that:

[lame54]

29. Here is what Trevor Noah thinks of that term...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trevor-noah-gave-the-best-shoutout-to-strong-powerful-vaginas_566722cde4b072e9d1c7c8db

In an episode on Dec. 7, Noah discussed President Barack Obama's Sunday night Oval Office address on the San Bernardino shootings and terrorism as well as Ralph Peters' subsequent interview on Fox Business Network in which he called Obama a "total pussy." Noah admitted he doesn't understand why people use the term "pussy" as an insult, giving the best shoutout to vaginas in the process.
"I’ve never understood this because vaginas are such strong, powerful things," he said. "Humans come out of vaginas and they keep working. They're indestructible. You just sit on a penis wrong and it breaks."

[Elmergantry]

28. Calls for gun control

Last edited Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:24 PM - Edit history (1)

is all about fear, just like the calls for not allowing Muslims in is all about fear (or so we are lectured)

[Eleanors38]

30. Other than the F-word and the vaguely sexist reference to "p------," nothing new from media...

MSM has always treated guns as a culture war with its endless cartoons, some of which are re-printed (after royalty payments) in your beloved NRA journals. So it comes as no surprise that modern com allows for the addition of chrome, spinner wheel covers, glass packs, and spoilers. But it's the same crap under the hood.

You gotta wonder if someposts here are "plants" for the other side, or just gratuitous potty talk.

Good post. "Confusion to the enemy!"

[KT2000]

33. missing a big point here

the passing around of these things serves to reinforce bonds among like-minded people. I don't think they are intended to change minds.
"Culture-bundling" though is an insidious process. For example, the Southern Strategy uses the dog whistle of racism to carry policies that benefit the wealthy establishment. We can see now it has come to include any number of hot button social issues. The people have run with it and where someone jumps on due to one issue, they end up embracing them all through this kind of reinforcement.
To change now means that people must give up their social circle.