Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:08 PM Dec 2015

F*ck controlling guns, control the ammunition

Seriously. Let them have their guns but no where in the Constitution does it say owning ammunition is a right. So tax the shit out of it. It worked for smokers.

If you're a sport shooter, you can apply for an exemption, that is a license that carries an annual fee that you must reapply for annually and show proof that you still have that need.

Ban the sale of ammo online.

Ban the sale of ammo at gun shows.

Ban the sale of bulk ammo to individuals.

Create legislation that puts identifying numbers on ammo. If that ammo used in a crime isn't registered to the licensed purchaser and the actor of the crime, then that licensed purchaser shares the responsibility of that crime.

You want to purchase ammo, give them a sample of your DNA, that way illegal use of the ammo makes it easier to catch the offender.

If you want to create ammo at home, ball and musket baby, just like in the good old days.

F*ck controlling guns, control the ammunition because without ammo, guns are useless.

/RANT

74 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
F*ck controlling guns, control the ammunition (Original Post) justiceischeap Dec 2015 OP
Lots of case law to show that is illegal on its face... TipTok Dec 2015 #1
Defacto bans are unconstitutional. hack89 Dec 2015 #2
Who cares about defactos, it's gunz we're talkin' here. TheCowsCameHome Dec 2015 #24
They already tax ammo. None of these will pass constitution so try again yeoman6987 Dec 2015 #52
Good. TheCowsCameHome Dec 2015 #67
Is this you not hiding behind the 2A? Cause you seem to be hiding behind the 2A to me. Squinch Dec 2015 #51
Pointing out that a proposal is unconstitutional is not hiding hack89 Dec 2015 #54
You are using that to stop discussion on how to address the problem. And you are doing that all Squinch Dec 2015 #56
"You are using that to stop discussion" Yet here you are, discussing it. friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #68
Oh, great. The gungeoneers have reached the gif stage of argument. Squinch Dec 2015 #74
When we raised the cost of cigarrettes VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #3
Ammunition and firearms are considered the same constitutionally. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #40
While I am sympathetic to your desire for some kind of gun control, I'm not sure about this OP. Skinner Dec 2015 #4
At least one court would seem to agree with you, in Herrington v. United States (2010) petronius Dec 2015 #59
They also reload MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #5
Then they would be breaking the law... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #6
Yes, jihadis care a lot about laws. Like "don't murder and don't make bombs." n/t MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #7
What jihadis? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #8
I take it you were asleep yesterday afternoon. n/t MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #10
Who said they were Jihadist? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #11
If an organized Christian group goes and blows up a Planned Parenthood MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #13
Were these people proven to be yet? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #17
Yes, that I have common sense after 91 years on this Earth n/t MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #19
Sense is not the word I was thinking of... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #20
Well, let's see MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #31
Guess what.. VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #32
Really? MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #34
And VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #35
And what? MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #41
No I have not... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #42
Clearly you have a reading problem MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #43
Clearly.....so far that is hearsay.. VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #48
I guess you missed the killers yesturday yeoman6987 Dec 2015 #53
No I didnt.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #60
Yes or no - Did you make your own primers? jberryhill Dec 2015 #16
No, I was 15 MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #18
If people want to make primers one at a time, that's fine jberryhill Dec 2015 #23
Or return to the original meaning BlueMTexpat Dec 2015 #9
Interesting case law on that MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #12
Case law can be changed....just like the Constitution VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #14
in the case of the 1st amendment sweetapogee Dec 2015 #46
O am giving you the definition of VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #49
oh sweetapogee Dec 2015 #70
I just did say.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #72
Yikes! BlueMTexpat Dec 2015 #15
If you do that, the morons will manufacture their own ammunition. Vinca Dec 2015 #21
Well having only one musket ball slowed down shooters VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #22
Reloading is cheap and easy jberryhill Dec 2015 #25
Then why do people buy bullets at all? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #26
Why do people buy tomatoes instead of growing them jberryhill Dec 2015 #55
Not that many do....because its inconvenient VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #57
"you think I am being fooled by your rhetoric that I think this will eliminate all gun violence" jberryhill Dec 2015 #61
What? What is your point exactly? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #63
No, a reloading kit can crank out hundreds of rounds pretty quick jberryhill Dec 2015 #65
So? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #73
Are you mistaking me for a pro gun person???????? Vinca Dec 2015 #27
So....my point stands VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #29
VR is not a careful reader jberryhill Dec 2015 #62
Control guns AND ammunition. nt valerief Dec 2015 #28
Yes. mwrguy Dec 2015 #38
If they can't take away ammo Politicalboi Dec 2015 #30
What exactly is a "safe gun"? EX500rider Dec 2015 #66
GMTA. It's an oddly attractive idea. The insanity has got to stop. nt Hekate Dec 2015 #33
You missed the other 400 times this thread has been posted in the past? ileus Dec 2015 #36
Ammunition is covered under the second amendment just like guns. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #37
There's no simple solution... we need a multi-effort approach HereSince1628 Dec 2015 #39
Paging Chris Rock marmar Dec 2015 #44
beat me to it! blueman mmxvi Dec 2015 #64
Here is why "taxing the shit" Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #45
Well we women and Black people understand that VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #50
My link is to a USSC case ruling. Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #58
Tax both, like 5,000% alarimer Dec 2015 #47
De facto ban is illegal on its face... TipTok Dec 2015 #69
To kill those 14 people, they needed less than 100 rounds. Your idea won't work. n/t Yo_Mama Dec 2015 #71
 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
1. Lots of case law to show that is illegal on its face...
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:12 PM
Dec 2015

It's like taxing printer ink to shut down a newspaper ...

TheCowsCameHome

(40,168 posts)
24. Who cares about defactos, it's gunz we're talkin' here.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:33 PM
Dec 2015

Don't let 'em come and take mah gunz. Anything but mah gunz..........that black guy and his librul buddies is gonna take mah gunz and mah rights away, I just knows it.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
54. Pointing out that a proposal is unconstitutional is not hiding
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 03:57 PM
Dec 2015

Even if I supported such a law would not make it legal.

Squinch

(50,993 posts)
56. You are using that to stop discussion on how to address the problem. And you are doing that all
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 04:00 PM
Dec 2015

over the place. As I have pointed out to you frequently, the fact that it currently violates a law does not preclude the idea of changing a law.

We know these laws exist.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
3. When we raised the cost of cigarrettes
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:14 PM
Dec 2015

Use went waydown.

No spcific Constitutional right to the bullets anyway...

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
40. Ammunition and firearms are considered the same constitutionally.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:05 PM
Dec 2015

Bans on types of ammunition are okay, such as hollow points.

Bans on all ammunition are a violation of the second amendment.

This was decided law in DC v. Heller.

Skinner

(63,645 posts)
4. While I am sympathetic to your desire for some kind of gun control, I'm not sure about this OP.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:14 PM
Dec 2015
If one accepts the premise that there is a constitutional right for private citizens to own firearms, then I think it would follow that there is also a constitutional right to own the ammunition for those firearms. Otherwise the constitutional right to own firearms would be meaningless.

(To be clear: I'm not saying that I necessarily accept the premise. But I am saying that if one does accept the premise, then the right to ammo necessarily follows.)

petronius

(26,603 posts)
59. At least one court would seem to agree with you, in Herrington v. United States (2010)
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 04:25 PM
Dec 2015
By the same token, given the obvious connection between handgun ammunition and the right protected by the Second Amendment, we are hard-pressed to see how a flat ban on the possession of such ammunition in the home could survive heightened scrutiny of any kind. We therefore conclude that the Second Amendment guarantees a right to possess ammunition in the home that is coextensive with the right to possess a usable handgun there. The government has not taken issue with that conclusion.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/dc-court-of-appeals/1543809.html

</my amateur law-chopping>

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
5. They also reload
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:14 PM
Dec 2015

Making ammo is not very hard.

Heck, I made gunpowder with pee and straw as a science experiment when I was a kid. I'd probably get arrested now.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
8. What jihadis?
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:18 PM
Dec 2015

You mean Dear the Christian Jihadist?

Its not about eliminating....its about reduction...

Is 355 mass killing in one year not enough for you yet?

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
11. Who said they were Jihadist?
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:21 PM
Dec 2015

Oh....because every American with a muslim name and a gun is a jihadist...

Does that mean every Christian with one is too?

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
13. If an organized Christian group goes and blows up a Planned Parenthood
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:23 PM
Dec 2015

Yes, that's terrorism, too.

Same with Jews, but I am not sure what we get worked up about. Perhaps the Mets.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
17. Were these people proven to be yet?
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:24 PM
Dec 2015

No they werent....but you just proved something important about yourself.

And that is NOT the definition of terrorism....which doesnt HAVE to be organized by the way...have you headrd of stochastic terrorism yet?

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
31. Well, let's see
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:45 PM
Dec 2015

What we know.

1. Three people attacked the softest of soft targets in a very organized and cool (by which I am calculated) fashion.
2. At least one was "very religious" according to his own father. Others probably so. All known to be Muslim.
3. They made many, many bombs
4. They planned the attack very well, with get away car switch, body armor, and masks. They got busted by accident. I heard it on the scanner yesterday.
5. The people at work were very nice to two of the attackers, having just given them a baby shower
6. There is recent travel to Saudi Arabia
7. A neighbor has since come forward saying that middle eastern men had been coming and going at odd times and appeared furtive, but didn't report anything because he didn't want to be called racist.
8. The President and various police officials are hem-hawing around and not jumping to the "it's workplace violence" theme.

Unless all three share the same mental illness, that's probably a "no"
There was no robbery, so that's a "no"
No drugs, so that's a "no"
The workplace seemed pretty nice, and I don't see dragging in 2 other people into a workplace dispute
They planned this for a long time (pipe bombs take time)

So, yes, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, swims like a duck, looks like a duck, it's not a zebra.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
32. Guess what..
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:46 PM
Dec 2015

Not Arabic...never went to Saudi Arabia either...

Both were of Pakistani decent



Yeah you seem to be walking and talking like another kind of duck...

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
42. No I have not...
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:11 PM
Dec 2015

That he traveled there is not yet proven....that was a statement made but no proof of that....so you go...because you jump to conclusions....little is known about her yet...

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
43. Clearly you have a reading problem
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:18 PM
Dec 2015

He went on Haj and met his fiance during the trip

"Haj" is a pilgrimage to Mecca. Which is in Saudi Arabia.

Have fun, going bowling.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
60. No I didnt....
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 04:27 PM
Dec 2015

Has anything been proven yet? Was he no longer a citizen?

Get back to me after....otherwise we know what you think...just being Muslim doesnt automatically assume one is a Jihadist.....was Dear a Christian Jihadist? Should we start being worried about all Christians?

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
23. If people want to make primers one at a time, that's fine
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:32 PM
Dec 2015

These discussions are always punctuated with "but reloaders make their own" comments, ignoring the fact that reloaders generally buy primers in bulk, because making those yourself can be an interesting and risky proposition.

Purchases of key chemicals to make primers are also monitored, and for several of the "easiest" routes, purchases of the chemicals are restricted.

Among the other things that can be "made at home" are meth, crack, and LSD. People with the appropriate supplies to make primers at home are more likely to blow themselves up before manufacturing a large quantity of ammunition.

BlueMTexpat

(15,372 posts)
9. Or return to the original meaning
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:18 PM
Dec 2015

of 18th-century guns, i.e, muskets.

Confiscate any gun that is not a musket.

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
12. Interesting case law on that
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:21 PM
Dec 2015

Basically says that citizens should have comparable small arms to the military.

There's actually a pending challenge to the 1986 ban on manufacture of new full autos based on it.

Just what we need, huh?

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
14. Case law can be changed....just like the Constitution
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:23 PM
Dec 2015

The 2nd Amendment is an amendment...meaning change to the original...

sweetapogee

(1,168 posts)
46. in the case of the 1st amendment
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:33 PM
Dec 2015

for example, are you saying that the main body of the constitution did not allow for freedom of speech? Seems like that is what your implying.

In the case of the 2nd amendment, are you saying that the main body of the constitution was amended to allow for previously unconstitutional gunz ownership?

Why then do we call the first 10 amendments to the constitution The Bill of Rights?

Vinca

(50,302 posts)
21. If you do that, the morons will manufacture their own ammunition.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:29 PM
Dec 2015

That would probably be a worse nightmare since who knows what they might load into the shells.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
22. Well having only one musket ball slowed down shooters
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:31 PM
Dec 2015

In the past...

If bullets werent so cheap they woul be manufacturing the themselves now.....and few have that knowledge

We are not going to eliminate....but 355 in one year ...shouldnt we do something to reduce that...

What is YOUR plan....oh I know...MOAR GUNZ!

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
25. Reloading is cheap and easy
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:34 PM
Dec 2015

A lot of people have reloading kits.

What they generally forget is that making the primers - the little capsule that acts as an impact explosive to ignite the main charge - is a much trickier proposition than reloading cartridges and using commercially-available primers.

The primers are the Achilles Heel of the "but anyone can reload" argument.
 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
26. Then why do people buy bullets at all?
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:36 PM
Dec 2015

One word....convenience

Sorry I thought you agreed with him...

Then we need to regulate that achilles heel too.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
55. Why do people buy tomatoes instead of growing them
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 04:00 PM
Dec 2015

Or tie flies for fly fishing. Some people get so wrapped up in fly-tying as a hobby, they don't even fish.

At a shooting range, one will often find people who will approach you and ask whether they can have your spent brass casings.
 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
57. Not that many do....because its inconvenient
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 04:08 PM
Dec 2015

Thanks for proving my point!

See you think I am being fooled by your rhetoric that I think this will eliminate all gun violence....I don't but the entire rest of the world proves it sure as shit cuts down on it.

Since flu shots don't 100% eliminate the flu.....should we stop recommending you get one?

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
61. "you think I am being fooled by your rhetoric that I think this will eliminate all gun violence"
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 04:31 PM
Dec 2015

What the ever living fuck are you on about?

"Since flu shots don't 100% eliminate the flu.....should we stop recommending you get one?"

No, and I'm not against gun control either. You must have me confused with someone else. I was responding to the point that is frequently raised by ammosexuals about reloading, but they forget about the primers.

I think you might do well to focus on what people say, instead of your bizarre notions about mind reading.

I only jumped in to point out a flaw in the reloading point often made by ammosexuals.

You need to get a grip.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
63. What? What is your point exactly?
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 04:34 PM
Dec 2015

I dont care that some might reload....so fucking what....that takes time and is inconvenient....kinda like muskets were....we have to do something....it appears you are in the camp that just wants to pray or wish it away.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
65. No, a reloading kit can crank out hundreds of rounds pretty quick
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 04:47 PM
Dec 2015

it's like baking cookies. If you spend an afternoon on it, you can make dozens of cookies. It's not "kinda like muskets". Brass is expensive and a LOT of shooters load their own cartridges. With shotgun shells in particular, it is a very simple setup. It's easier than making your own pasta.

I jumped into this thread in response to someone who brought up reloading. The people who bring up reloading often overlook the fact that reloaders buy primers in bulk:



Primers are a small capsule of impact explosive material which ignites the rest of the powder in the cartridge.

Most people do not make their own primers, because it is much riskier than reloading and using commercial primers, and involves either doing some chemistry or purchasing monitored chemicals in order to do it in any decent quantity. Yes, there are people who do it, but it is a much, much smaller proportion of people who reload in general. Reloading is NOT an unusual or rare thing among people who regularly play with guns.

The "regulate ammunition" thing, which has been raised a zillion times on DU, regularly meets with the "but people can reload" objection. However, by also regulating primers, a lot of the reloading goes away. It also makes shooting much more expensive (see note above on brass).

You seem to be unfamiliar with the argument, counterargument and rebuttal here, and much more interested in finding people to make some kind of personal attack against. I wouldn't give two shits if the 2nd Amendment were interpreted to encompass all arms available in 1791 as I've posted elsewhere here, and a general ban on semi-auto's. People had a fine time with bolt action rifles for a very long time historically, and semi-auto's have only been more recently widely available and popular (a few decades in perspective).

"we have to do something"

Well if "something" is acting like a dick to people seeking to respond to a salient point raised by someone else in the thread, then you are certainly doing something.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
73. So?
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:48 PM
Dec 2015

Every gun owner is not going to do that...

Its not convenient....

Sorry not convinced.

When the cost to smoke went up....smoking went down....sure some rolled thier own.....but not very many did.....and they are addicted!

Vinca

(50,302 posts)
27. Are you mistaking me for a pro gun person????????
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:39 PM
Dec 2015

If so, you'd better read some of my rants. I'm just telling you what would happen. Reloading is a hobby among some gun nuts and they'd just set up shop and crank out all the ammo they need. My preference is no guns and no ammo, but that is unrealistic.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
29. So....my point stands
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:41 PM
Dec 2015

We reduced smoking by making them more expensive...

Sure some rolled thier own its cheaper and easy....but damn few smokers took that up...

Amd THEY were actual addicts!

 

Politicalboi

(15,189 posts)
30. If they can't take away ammo
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:44 PM
Dec 2015

Just re-size it so the new bullets ONLY go with SAFE guns. Your old gun is now obsolete like many a video cube from the past. Buy a new SAFE gun for $2,000 and register your ammo, and insurance.

They can play with abortion rights and pick and choose, it's time to pick apart the 2nd.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
39. There's no simple solution... we need a multi-effort approach
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:04 PM
Dec 2015

Much of this is already in place, and it must address both the types of firearms, the qualifications of persons and the permitted uses of firearms.

One of the basic conflicts around guns is geographic/demographic variation in desire for regulation States must be allowed to regulate commerce and permitted uses appropriate for to their circumstance. That might include allowing authority for permitted gun uses to pass to subordinate jusidictions, such as counties and incorporated towns.

More than anything there's a need to create in society a mindset that shuns the resolution of conflict through gun intimidation and violence and those that endorse and glorify that. That's not something that government can much contribute to, but prejudice and discrimination in association is a powerful social force that regularly marginalizes groups seen as deviant/ undesirable.

If we can convince parents to have children play safer sports than tackle football across the past 4 decades we can convince more and more of society to shun the perceived need to resolve conflict and dangers with means other than gun violence. And yes, there will probably be regional differences in that.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
50. Well we women and Black people understand that
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 03:43 PM
Dec 2015

the Constitution is open to interpretation as well as amendments....

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
47. Tax both, like 5,000%
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:38 PM
Dec 2015

Where it is too expensive for anyone to buy.

Plus insurance and registration requirements.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»F*ck controlling guns, co...