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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsEvangelist Calls On Christians To Assassinate Abortion Providers
Last edited Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:00 PM - Edit history (3)
The obnoxious but popular Christian evangelist Joshua Feuerstein published the following video to his Facebook page on July 29:
Planned Parenthood has hunted down millions and millions of little innocent babies, stuck a knife into the uterus, cut them, pulled them out, crushed their skull with forceps, ripped their body apart, sold their tissue, and threw them bleeding into a trash bin.
I say, tonight, we punish Planned Parenthood. I think its time that abortion doctors should have to run and hide and be afraid for their life.
There is also this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027397203
moondust
(19,989 posts)This guy is an existential terrorist threat.
Initech
(100,080 posts)If this isn't terrorism I don't know what is.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)NOW.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)What a dangerous thing to say in light of the death of 3 people.
Hell, it's an awful thing to say at any time, but downright recklessly despicable at a time like this.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)But still, this is the type of incitement that really should not be legal as "freedom of speech".
Aerows
(39,961 posts)is a despicable act. What in the hell is in the heads of such people? What are they missing in their life that they would commit such horrible acts?
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)What a way to love your fellow man.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)created the atmosphere for terrorism!
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)What prosecutable crime? I despise his actions and motives, but all speech is protected otherwise there is always somebody to block your speech.
cloudbase
(5,520 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)You can't point to a single law that stands outside of riots and other extremely volatile situations.
Nor convictions that weren't overturned.
Give it a try finding one.
cloudbase
(5,520 posts)"The constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)There was a long delay between the "incitement" (the bogus body parts video and Fiorino and the pastor) and the action (the Colorado shootings on Friday). Therefore no lawyer and no prosecutor could prove "imminent".
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)Incitement was an offence under the common law of England and Wales. It was an inchoate offence.[1] It consisted of persuading, encouraging, instigating, pressuring, or threatening so as to cause another to commit a crime.-- Wikipedia
It was abolished in England and Wales on 1 October 2008[2] when Part 2 of the Serious Crime Act 2007 came into force, replacing it with three new statutory offences of encouraging or assisting crime.[3] The common law is now only relevant to offences committed before that date.[4]
Incitement remains an offence in New Zealand.[5]
In the United States, you have to prove that "imminent danger" is or was operative.
Traditionally, however, if the speech did not fall within one of the above categorical exceptions, it was protected speech. In 1969, the Supreme Court protected a Ku Klux Klan members racist and hate-filled speech and created the "imminent danger" test to permit hate speech. The court ruled in Brandenburg v. Ohio that; "The constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a state to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force, or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."[80]-- Wikipedia
sinkingfeeling
(51,457 posts)he couldn't tell an embryo of a pig from one of his 'little innocent babies'
Which one is it?
LiberalArkie
(15,716 posts)moondust
(19,989 posts)At least I think he's probably opposed. I've never actually heard a conservative voice his virulent opposition to human intervention in animal reproduction, but I'm sure they object to it since God makes animals, too, ya know.
w0nderer
(1,937 posts)herding cats
(19,565 posts)He's the one who said they should stand up for their 1st Amendment right to discriminate against gays by using their 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.
He's one sick puppy. I'm sure he feels no remorse over the deaths at the PP clinic. If anything he's looking for a way to exploit it and increase is social media following.
LiberalArkie
(15,716 posts)herding cats
(19,565 posts)He can't just delete his video after millions of people viewed it and think his actions would go away with it.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)if I said similar things about the kleptocrats on Wall Street.
Not long, I'd wager.
But this is OK, because jebus.
herding cats
(19,565 posts)It's crazy what some people get away with and others don't.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)anything and everything is excusable and you will be presumed sane/OK no matter what else you say or profess.
This is one seriously fucked-up society.
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)If I put up a page urging the assignation of federal prosecutors, I wonder how long it would take before the fibbies broke down my door.
For those who don't get religious privilege, this is what it looks like.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)as·sig·na·tion
ˌasiɡˈnāSH(ə n/
noun: assignation; plural noun: assignations
1.
an appointment to meet someone in secret, typically one made by lovers.
"his assignation with an older woman"
synonyms: rendezvous, date, appointment, meeting; literarytryst
"their secret assignation"
2.
the allocation or attribution of someone or something as belonging to something.
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)LiberalArkie
(15,716 posts)erpowers
(9,350 posts)It was Joshua Feuerstein who started the things, earlier this year, with Starbucks. He claimed to be upset that this year Starbucks put out a simple red cup instead of a cup with snowflakes, snowmen, and reindeer. He then encouraged people to go to Starbucks and say their name was Merry Christmas so their cups would say Merry Christmas.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)And if I were working at Starbucks, I'd write "Mary Quissmiss."
jmowreader
(50,559 posts)Trust me on something, Mr. Feuerstein: after a retail worker survives the month-long Christmas season, the last thing he or she wants to happen is to be forced to say "Merry Christmas" to someone.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)I mean, who says the adjective must precede the noun?
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)No, i mean seriously, he's got a fucking point on top of his head.
LiberalArkie
(15,716 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)from his church if he is getting it.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Isn't he the same guy that started that BS with the Starbucks red cup being "anti-Christian" or some such shit? What a dork. Get a life you idiot.
And what's a Christian fundie doing with a last name like Feuerstein?
jmowreader
(50,559 posts)He's also the same mofo who called a Florida bakery that makes a lot of cakes for same-sex marriages and asked them to make him a cake with "We Do Not Support Same Sex Marriage" written on it. And of course he recorded the call without telling the distant end he was doing it, and published it online to show how people "discriminate against Christians because of their faith." Unfortunately for Josh...recording phone calls in Florida without the consent of all parties is a felony. But, you know, IOKIYAR.
He's ALSO the same mofo who asked his minions for $20,000 for a Red One camera to make YouTube videos (yes, I know: why in HELL do you need a full-fledged professional cinema camera to shoot YT video?), and when they gave him the money he spent it on something else.
http://lifeafter40.net/2015/04/07/josh-feuerstein-wheres-the-camera/
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)Anything prosecutable with a reasonable chance of conviction?
Protecting free speech is to protect free speech you don't like, just like we protect your free speech that your opponents don't like.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)I would think he could be at risk for:
1) making interstate threats to interfere with interstate commerce (no matter if you like it or not, abortion IS LEGAL)
2) making threats of violence and intimidation (Assault....Battery is only if you HIT them...)
3) a reprisal from Anonymous that posts his home address and phone numbers
Just as you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded public venue, you can't yell "kill" on a public forum....
saturnsring
(1,832 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)This is what is needed, analysis, not the knee jerk anti-free speech reaction of so many.
Thanks.
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)it is perfectly legal to shout fire in a public venue.
#1. The case from which that example originates (Schenck) was overturned.
#2. That example was used to justify the arrest and imprisonment of protestors during WWI for handing out anti-war flyers.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)One of President Bill Clinton's accomplishments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Access_to_Clinic_Entrances_Act
Josh Feuerstein's words were pretty much a direct threat - an attempt to incite immediate violence (he said "tonight" against PP clinics.
He could conceivably spend a year in Federal prison for this.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)(Update, Nm, someone already pointed this out.)
spanone
(135,844 posts)fuck him
mike_c
(36,281 posts)It's unfortunate that another one appears to be some peoples' willingness to take BS seriously.
randome
(34,845 posts)What a loser.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]
LiberalArkie
(15,716 posts)Ahpook
(2,750 posts)He's a fucking con man that won't stand by his convictions.
The coward should leave the video up.
Mendocino
(7,495 posts)Isn't this the same guy who posted his "I tricked Starbucks" coffee cup video?
LiberalArkie
(15,716 posts)Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)DawgHouse
(4,019 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)unfortunately i think you could be right.
sickos.
Monk06
(7,675 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)No doubt, he pretends a "serious anti-christian vibe" is present, and is very concerned with it.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)because after all the only difference between Xian fundies and atheist fundies is the target and the quantity so I'm told.
I suppose, on a technicality, that's right though. After all while there are many preachers and doubtless legions of their followers (or they'd stop being followers!) who want to treat abortion as a capital crime, there is indeed a smaller number of atheists calling for the death penalty for Christians.
It would be nice though if the crowd who think "bear no false witness" is not just sensible but divinely commanded would admit that that smaller number is in fact zero, which makes it qualitatively different too.
LiberalArkie
(15,716 posts)whatthehey
(3,660 posts)LiberalArkie
(15,716 posts)even say I am a Christian, I just say I am a follower of Jesus. And they say "you're a Christian" I say nope. I don't want to be lumped in with those fools. They have no idea of what they say or do. They can make no correlation to saying "All abortionists should be killed" over and over and felling any responsibility when it happens.
I try to stay out of the fire fights myself, it is too easy to go overboard.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)'Wonder if DU Christians will try and find a way atheists are "just as bad"'
I'm not clever enough to pretend to know who's worse person for person. Am however, clever enough to pretend to know that many people are just as bad as I am, many others are better than I am, and yet still others worse than I am.
Then again, I just illustrated my own ignorance by pretending to know what good and bad are.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I assume that in your mind DU Christians (or at least that one who posted about anti-Christian sentiment at DU) and this jackass share certain similarities - how similar do you believe them to be?
Bryant
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I made no comparison, either morphological or syntactic.
I framed one object. Two are necessary for a comparison.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)It seemed like you were comparing Joshua Feuerstein and the person who posted this post.
You have to admit that the language is pretty similar right? So I guess I just assumed you were comparing the two.
Good use of morphological and syntactic though - you must be very smart.
Bryant
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)We're not all pacifists...
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)not only is he a sh*t stirrer/incitement vector, he's also trolling for some deep pocketed someone to fund his BS... if it hasn't already been the case.
juxtaposed
(2,778 posts)katsy
(4,246 posts)Like "the popular but obnoxious" daesh?
Same difference. Terrorists.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)I know what your saying. .
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)He said, "Are you happy about it? I'm not. I'm a Christian."
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)NYCButterfinger
(755 posts)This guy is a joker.
redwitch
(14,944 posts)Violent hate speech has a poster boy. This makes me furious!
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)Protecting free speech means protecting speech you don't like because there is always somebody else who doesn't like your speech.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)It has been settled law from many cases that (outside of riots and other such extreme situations), exhorting people to violence and law-breaking is not breaking the law.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)It has to be incitement of imminent lawless action for it to lose First Amendment protection under this SCOTUS decision.
See Feuerstein's exact words:
I say, tonight, we punish Planned Parenthood. I think its time that abortion doctors should have to run and hide and be afraid for their life.
There's the three-fold Brandenburg test. To be actionable, a piece of speech must come with intent, imminence, and likelihood of inciting lawless action.
It passes the intent test, because Feuerstein's made it very plain not just here, but elsewhere, what he thinks of Planned Parenthood.
It passes the imminent test, because Feuerstein called for action "tonight" (presumably the night when the video was posted.)
And it passes the likelihood test, because for Planned Parenthood, this is not their first rodeo. In fact, there are countless instances of death threats, vandalism, assaults, and so on, so Feuerstein's speech was definitely likely to incite lawless acts.
As for specific laws, like I said elsewhere in this thread, I think Feuerstein violated the FACE Act. I think there's a strong, Constitutionally defensible case to be made that Feuerstein could be put in Federal prison for a year for what he said.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)So that's what an asshole looks like.
Hepburn
(21,054 posts)....this person calls himself a Christian???? Ummmmmmm...IF there was a Jesus, he sure as hell would not want this POS using his name to justify his sick beliefs!
JMHO
valerief
(53,235 posts)liberalnarb
(4,532 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)works the other way around.
Didnt happen to Sarah, wont happen here I betcha
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)So lock him up. He's a danger to himself and others.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)Point to it.
In The Friends of Voltaire Evelyn Beatrice Hall wrote the phrase: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"[4] (which is often misattributed to Voltaire himself) as an illustration of Voltaire's beliefs.[5][6][7] Hall's quotation is often cited to describe the principle of freedom of speech.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)The RIGHT to say something does not and never has freed ANYONE from the consequences of saying it in the public arena.
Your job, your home, you reputation...ALL can be lost for "free" speech because the public can choose to ignore your business as a result or your bosses may fire you in "at-will" employment positions because your ignorant "free" speech besmirches their business too.
Freedom of Speech exists to prevent the government from abolishing political speech or free expression.
It does NOT absolve anyone from the consequences of their actions...and it does not make one free from appropriate retort or counterpoint arguments.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)Those are covered by the laws of libel and slander. If certain hurdles are overcome then free speech is not a defense.
It does NOT absolve anyone from the consequences of their actions...and it does not make one free from appropriate retort or counterpoint arguments.
Yes, and that guy would instantly claim it is political speech, religious speech and free expression.
None of the posters have paused their emotions to raise the one issue you hint at, ... civil liability. They have simply said he belongs in prison because of his speech. That will not happen thanks to the Constitution of the United States of America.
But when people (like you have) get beyond simple knee jerk reactions, then we are getting somewhere.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)His right to voice an anti-abortion statement is NOT the part that gets him afoul of the law (in my view), it is the threat or implication of bodily harm being added to the statement. That and causing "fear in them".
I am pro-choice as the day is long, but I will gladly defend the RIGHT of someone to believe otherwise and to say otherwise. But I do NOT advocate for pro-choice people to attack protesters and threaten to kill them or inflict bodily hamr on them.
Douchewaffle Joshua stepped across a pretty clearly defined line in the "what is protected speech?" debate when he stopped voicing an opinion on abortion and started suggesting that people harm those who disagree...
EDIT (ADDING):
Source: ABC News
The suspect in an online threat against the University of Chicago -- a student from a nearby college -- allegedly wanted to kill approximately 16 students or staff and "any number of white policemen that I can in the process" in retaliation for the fatal police shooting of teenager Laquan McDonald, who was shot 16 times, officials said Monday.
Jabari Dean, 21, was charged with transmitting a threat in interstate commerce, according to federal prosecutors, and could face five years in prison if convicted, officials said, though the FBI determined he did not have the means to carry it out.
That appears to be "speech" too? NO?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Feuerstein made what is essentially a direct death threat against Planned Parenthood.
His exact words were:
I say, tonight, we punish Planned Parenthood. I think its time that abortion doctors should have to run and hide and be afraid for their life.
By saying "tonight", he made what could have been a vague call to action into an imminent threat. And with the words "abortion doctors should have to run and hide and be afraid for their life" he was essentially calling for either direct harm or a threat of direct harm towards abortion doctors.
That is NOT protected speech under the First Amendment.
As for specific laws he violated, I say he violated the FACE Act, which was signed into law by President Bill Clinton, and specifically prohibits the use of violence or the threat of violence to disrupt the obtaining or providing of reproductive health services.
Acts intended to intimidate workers or patients at reproductive health clinics are prohibited, so I think this covers what Feuerstein said specifically.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)fasttense
(17,301 posts)Find out anything. Shot first ask questions later you know. They think they have license to kill with impunity. Crazy mass murderers.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)perdita9
(1,144 posts)Their leader endorses violence.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Why isn't he out there?
Instead he tries to invite others.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)He should be picked up.
What the hell is wrong with this country, when shit like this is allowed to continue.
Omaha Steve
(99,657 posts)sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)Don't know. It is virtually impossible to find an in depth bio on him.
jmowreader
(50,559 posts)Which, of course, he celebrates in the traditional manner:
maryellen99
(3,789 posts)Then cry when they have to pay child support.
Initech
(100,080 posts)struggle4progress
(118,290 posts)Send me some money!"
... Feuersteins .. incendiary views are part of his .. persona. Appearing on CNN Monday, he says America is a Christian nation ... The other guest .. Pete Dominick, a talk radio host, attacked Feuerstein as a entrepreneurial bigot ... For .. $10, $20, or $50 monthly, Feuerstein offers partnerships to help him spread his message ... His Web site doesnt detail what the various tiers get you ...
Who is Josh Feuerstein, the man behind the Starbucks red cup frenzy?
Colby Itkowitz
November 10
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)lunasun
(21,646 posts)or is he disabled?
either way hater supreme
arthritisR_US
(7,288 posts)Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)But he's left a lot of Neanderthal footprints.
Pastor Encourages Christians to Fight Same-Sex Marriage Ruling With Guns
http://www.advocate.com/religion/2015/07/16/pastor-encourages-christians-fight-same-sex-marriage-ruling-guns
shenmue
(38,506 posts)As I'm sure this asshole's lawyer will explain to him really soon.