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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 12:27 AM Nov 2015

I made six charts comparing US and Canadian healthcare spending

Last edited Mon Nov 30, 2015, 01:08 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm still playing around with Mathematica, and I thought I'd practice doing charts again.

I took these data from Canada's CIHI NHE report and the US's CMS NHE report, and converted Canada's amounts to US dollars.

First, let's look at Canada's healthcare spending by the source of the money:



As you can see, the lion's share of healthcare payments are made by the provinces, with a sizeable chunk by out of pocket spending and private insurance (not all drugs are covered in all circumstances; you can pay for a room upgrade in a hospital; some voluntary procedures aren't covered, etc.; it's not as if literally all healthcare spending in Canada is public money, in fact about a quarter is private money).

Now we can compare it to the US's healthcare spending by source:



As you can see, the Federal government and private insurance roughly split the lion's share, there's a whole category of "charity" that doesn't exist in Canada (it actually does; I just couldn't make it visible on the Canada chart because it's so small), and out of pocket and state/local governments pick up most of the rest (the "capital" wedge in both cases is an accounting convention about how you deal with things like mortgages on buildings and R&D -- a hospital might pay $100 million for a new wing, but that cost notionally gets spread out over decades).

One interesting point pops out immediately: Canada funds a higher percentage (14%) of its total spending out-of-pocket than the US does (12%), though because our costs are so much higher our per capita out of pocket spending is more, as we'll see here:



This is per capita healthcare spending in US dollars (Canada is on the left, the US is on the right).

We exceed Canada in per capita spending from every source except local government (I'm using "local" to encompass mostly both provinces and states, though smaller jurisdictions do also provide some funding in both countries). However, that may just be a Federalism issue: our per capita public spending ($4129) is fairly close to Canada's per capita public spending ($3245), we just do more of that spending federally.

Our per capita capital spending is higher too: $516 in the US vs. $148 in Canada. Some of this reflects the fact that we have more research labs and institutions in the US, but it also points to a bigger issue. Canada has 4.17 hospitals per 100K people, while the US has only 1.79 hospitals per 100K people -- the fact that their capital expenses are so much lower than ours is surprising, given that, and particularly given their lower population density overall (which generally makes infrastructure more expensive).

And, of course, our huge funding difference is in private insurance: $3022 per capita in the US vs $560 per capita in Canada.

So that's where our monies are coming from. Where are they going? Here's Canada:



and here's the US:



Not really much of a difference stands out there. We are spending more than Canada as a percent of total on overhead (8% vs 3.1% -- this includes public program administration costs and private insurance profits in both countries), hospitals (35.7% vs. 29.6%), and physicians (22.3% vs. 15.5%), while spending less than Canada as a percent of total on nursing homes (5.9% vs 10.1%), and drugs (10.1% vs. 15.8%).

But, again, that's only relative to each country's total healthcare spending. When you look at absolute per capita spending, it's immediately apparent how much more we pay for every service than Canada does:



Note that pharmaceuticals and nursing homes (labeled "other institutions" here) are essentially identical per capita between both countries -- we aren't really paying much more for drugs than Canada is. We're paying more in overhead (though not all that much in absolute terms), a lot more for physicians, and a hell of a lot more to hospitals.

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I made six charts comparing US and Canadian healthcare spending (Original Post) Recursion Nov 2015 OP
I did not examine your charts, Snobblevitch Nov 2015 #1
"If she had the money" Hissyspit Nov 2015 #4
Yep, Snobblevitch Nov 2015 #16
With finite resources, rationing is a given Recursion Nov 2015 #17
2-1/2 years for a scheduled surgery? Snobblevitch Nov 2015 #20
Or in other words: LoveIsNow Nov 2015 #36
So ... The devil really is in the details. ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2015 #2
Complex systems have complex problems requiring complex solutions?!?! Recursion Nov 2015 #3
Sometimes, but not always. Some complex problems have simple solutions. Donald Ian Rankin Nov 2015 #19
If you have a spare couple of days ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2015 #37
My French is probably good enough but my German and Dutch are not Recursion Nov 2015 #38
Thanks ... I think it important that we be informed when trying to figure out ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2015 #39
Good info! R&K nt longship Nov 2015 #5
I am also learning Canagas Health Care system Jim Beard Nov 2015 #6
And this can be a little misleading because it includes Canada's Territories Recursion Nov 2015 #9
But everyone is covered. Jim Beard Nov 2015 #10
True, and 75% of healthcare spending is public in Canada Recursion Nov 2015 #11
informative tristancalm Nov 2015 #7
Welcome to DU! Recursion Nov 2015 #8
Is any candidate proposing the Canadian plan? nt Live and Learn Nov 2015 #12
With the caveat that this isn't GD-P.... Recursion Nov 2015 #13
Not at all sure that is correct but given the caveat I will let it rest. nt Live and Learn Nov 2015 #14
I'll cop to that being a gross oversimplification (nt) Recursion Nov 2015 #15
Mathematica is the work of the devil. Donald Ian Rankin Nov 2015 #18
Huh? I think that's one of its best functions Recursion Nov 2015 #22
It doesn't work modulo composites. Donald Ian Rankin Nov 2015 #24
Ah, true. That's never been a use case for me Recursion Nov 2015 #25
Data that was being truncated to 32-bit words. Donald Ian Rankin Nov 2015 #26
Oh, yeah. Maxima would be much better for that, or R. (nt) Recursion Nov 2015 #28
Great post. joshcryer Nov 2015 #21
We have a non-profit or co-operative option in each state Recursion Nov 2015 #23
Whether it would've fallen under Federal spending, I mean. joshcryer Nov 2015 #27
Oh God no; ACA was entirely an effort to avoid that Recursion Nov 2015 #29
Not a chance in hell that conversation starts. joshcryer Nov 2015 #30
Huh, I'll check that out Recursion Nov 2015 #31
Sec. 1323. Community health insurance option. joshcryer Nov 2015 #35
So the takeaway is that we're spending somewhat more, for what appears to be quite a bit less return Scootaloo Nov 2015 #32
Quite a bit more Recursion Nov 2015 #33
The deal with pharma in the US vs. Canada... Scootaloo Nov 2015 #34
I agree. The OP is enormously informative but slides a little too quickly over the pharma issue. Jim Lane Nov 2015 #43
Under healthcare spending, shouldn't the U.S. have a slice of the pie Vinca Nov 2015 #40
It does, it's called "overhead". That includes insurance profits and Medicare administration costs. Recursion Nov 2015 #41
fantastic analysis karynnj Nov 2015 #42

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
1. I did not examine your charts,
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 12:59 AM
Nov 2015

but I do know know my cousin in Manitoba had to wait 2-1/2 years for surgery on her ankle. She would have had the surgery in Fargo if she had the money.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
17. With finite resources, rationing is a given
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:38 AM
Nov 2015

Rationing can happen in multiple ways. In the US we do it by pricing, which is odious. Canada does it by scheduling and supply-side limits. Their way on the whole is better.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
20. 2-1/2 years for a scheduled surgery?
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:45 AM
Nov 2015

At the time, the U.S. had more mri machines dedicated to pets than Canada had to humans. (Early 1990s.)

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
2. So ... The devil really is in the details. ...
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 01:02 AM
Nov 2015

Good work. Facts are really informing ... when we want them to be.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
37. If you have a spare couple of days ...
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:09 AM
Nov 2015

I wonder what the break out on healthcare financing for the other industrialized countries.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
38. My French is probably good enough but my German and Dutch are not
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:11 AM
Nov 2015

The problem is every country publishes this in their native language. I'll do what I can.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
39. Thanks ... I think it important that we be informed when trying to figure out ...
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:19 AM
Nov 2015

what our system will look like.

 

Jim Beard

(2,535 posts)
6. I am also learning Canagas Health Care system
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 02:04 AM
Nov 2015

and after I read your charts I saw the big difference between both countries is completely different. In the US, the Federal government is the largest money contributor and the other way in Canada.

It struck me that there are 12 provinces in Canada where there are 50 states in the US.. It would be a nightmare to have fifty local state insurance companies. It would have to be Fed. financed and local administration like we now have Medicare.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
9. And this can be a little misleading because it includes Canada's Territories
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 02:25 AM
Nov 2015

Which notionally have their own budget but are mostly funded by Federal grants. So if you counted it that way Canadian Federal spending would be somewhat higher and provincial spending would be somewhat lower, but either way their spending is much more local than ours.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
11. True, and 75% of healthcare spending is public in Canada
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 03:05 AM
Nov 2015

As compared to about 50% of healthcare spending in the US.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
13. With the caveat that this isn't GD-P....
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 03:23 AM
Nov 2015

Roughly, O'Malley is proposing the price and budget controls that Canada has, and Sanders is proposing the financing system that Canada has.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
18. Mathematica is the work of the devil.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:40 AM
Nov 2015

Try using the "LinearSolve" function (or SolveLinear or whatever it's called) to solve linear equations, with the modulus set to a composite integer.

Then weep. Or, alternatively, let me know how you got it to work!

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
22. Huh? I think that's one of its best functions
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:46 AM
Nov 2015

LinearSolve(m,b) finds x such that m dot x = b.

LinearSolve(m) is a closure that can be applied to multiple b matrices.

What problems are you having with it?

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
24. It doesn't work modulo composites.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:50 AM
Nov 2015

It's fine over the real numbers, and it's fine if you set Modulus->p and p is prime.

But if you try it mod a composite number - especially something very smooth like a power of 2 - it often fails to find solutions even when they exist.

Not that I'm bitter at having recently wasted half a days work because Mathematica lied to me about my system being insoluble, or anything...

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
26. Data that was being truncated to 32-bit words.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:54 AM
Nov 2015

So the linear relations became linear relations mod 2^32.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
23. We have a non-profit or co-operative option in each state
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:47 AM
Nov 2015

I'm not sure what real difference the actual public administration makes in that...

joshcryer

(62,274 posts)
27. Whether it would've fallen under Federal spending, I mean.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:54 AM
Nov 2015

I was under the impression that the Federal government was going to set up its own insurer.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
29. Oh God no; ACA was entirely an effort to avoid that
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:58 AM
Nov 2015

Even Medicare provisions through private insurers nowadays; there really are some things the private sector does better.

Of all people, Baucus had an idea that was interesting; he wanted regional insurance co-operatives like Germany has. I wish that had gotten more play.

But, anyways, whatever financing model we adopt, we really need to address the fact that providers need to make about 40% less than they do now, while providing about 20% more care. Any thoughts on how to start that conversation with them?

joshcryer

(62,274 posts)
30. Not a chance in hell that conversation starts.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 05:19 AM
Nov 2015

No conversation starts with "you get less money and do more for it."

But I just did some digging and the "community health insurance option" as passed by the House was certainly a Federal level insurance option (voluntary and states could opt out; which probably a lot of Southern states would've done).

Good overview: http://www.americanbenefitscouncil.org/pub/e609cdaf-9219-da12-b9c7-254567254fd8

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
31. Huh, I'll check that out
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 05:21 AM
Nov 2015

It's weird that for a brief shining moment there the House was actually the source of liberal legislation rather than its graveyard...

joshcryer

(62,274 posts)
35. Sec. 1323. Community health insurance option.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 06:58 AM
Nov 2015

Control+F to find it: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590/text

It was struck down by SEC. 10905. MODIFICATION OF ANNUAL FEE ON HEALTH INSURANCE PROVIDERS.

Sec. 10905 (f)(2) to be specific:

(2) Section 9010(c)(2)(B) of this Act is amended by striking ‘(except’ and all that follows through ‘1323)’.


Not too surprising that it got put in there since we held the House by a large majority. Just a damn shame Lieberman was a turncoat and Teddy died and Al Franken didn't get seated until the whole voting window was over.

This is what Obama, Clinton and Edwards wanted in the 2008 primaries, they all argued for it. It's one reason I supported the mandate (and still do for other reasons; wouldn't be hard to put this Federal insurer back in there).

If it was in there 9 out of 10 people who didn't already have employer insurance would've jumped on board. It would've killed a lot of the insurance industry over time. Including the non-profits.
 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
32. So the takeaway is that we're spending somewhat more, for what appears to be quite a bit less return
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 05:26 AM
Nov 2015

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
33. Quite a bit more
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 05:27 AM
Nov 2015

But the problem isn't overhead, nor is it pharma: it's what we're actually paying providers, mostly hospitals, but also physicians.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
34. The deal with pharma in the US vs. Canada...
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 05:33 AM
Nov 2015

Is that in Canada the costs are diffused through the population, while in the US, almost all of the cost falls on the person who needs the drug. Even without theorizing on the prevalence of Martin Shkreli's in the industry itself, the reality is that in the US people go without, for the plain fact they can't afford what they need, while in Canada, the cost is still there, but all of it does not fall on the needy.

It's like the initial reply to the post said, "if she had had the money" - a lot of Americans don't have the money

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
43. I agree. The OP is enormously informative but slides a little too quickly over the pharma issue.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:01 PM
Nov 2015

There's extensive anecdotal evidence that many drugs are much cheaper or at least somewhat cheaper in Canada. If our per capita spending on drugs is only a little higher, my guess is that the difference would be much greater if the only factor were the higher prices here. Another factor is probably that Americans who are uninsured or underinsured (high co-pay and/or high deductible) more often decide to forgo filling a prescription.

As in other areas, we are paying more for less health care.

Vinca

(50,273 posts)
40. Under healthcare spending, shouldn't the U.S. have a slice of the pie
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:21 AM
Nov 2015

for insurance company profits? That eats up a whole lot of cash that might otherwise go to medical care.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
41. It does, it's called "overhead". That includes insurance profits and Medicare administration costs.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:28 AM
Nov 2015

It's not nearly, even remotely, as much as you think. The chart shows you.

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