Is there any passages in any bible that cover abortion?

[rurallib]

I am no biblical scholar in any way. We were discussing this after the attack Friday. No one really knew if there was some guiding biblical passage that the anti-abortion was using for justification.
Seems like most of what right wing groups do is justified by twisting some passages of some bible to fit their need.

Thanks in advance.

[hobbit709]

1. That pretty much covers all their religious objections to anything.

[rurallib]

4. i just don't seem to recall any specific passages being cited on abortion

but then this 'debate' has been going on all my life.

Growing up catholic with 12 years in parochial schools all I can remember is the "thou shall not kill" commandment being cited.

[hobbit709]

8. Funny how they forget that one when killing doctors and people at a clinic.

[951-Riverside]

2. The 6th commandment

Hey, you asked.

[ErikJ]

6. That's assuming the fetus is considered a full person. Which its not.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/3/19/1285933/-Bible-Life-Begins-at-Breath-Not-Conception

[951-Riverside]

11. The 6th commandment the very clear about this and says nothing about a "full person".

but hey everytime a male jerks off and ejaculates, he's killing life too according to the same commandment.

Sperm is very much alive

[ErikJ]

15. You forgot animals too.

Which most prolifers EAT every day.

[Shandris]

48. And which were required for sacrifices, thus showing they did not consider animals as 'life' in...

...that manner.

Remember when dealing with the Bible that applying modern definitions isn't going to get much traction.

[rurallib]

9. I assume the 6th commandment is 'thou shall not kill"?

been a very long time since i have ever really thought about commandments

[ManiacJoe]

31. That is the one. However,

there is some debate about the translation. "Thou shall not murder" might be more accurate.

[Blue_In_AK]

33. I would imagine that "murder" is a more accurate interpretation,

because soon after receipt of the 10 Commandments, the Israelites were off killing Canaanites left and right, seizing their "promised land" in the name of God. Some things never change.

[WinkyDink]

46. Bwah! Yeah, right. This, in a book whose O.T. God commands the deaths of Canaanites!

[ErikJ]

3. Here's a good blog about it.

http://joeschwartz.net/life.htm also longer one http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/3/19/1285933/-Bible-Life-Begins-at-Breath-Not-Conception

The bible tells us when a fetus becomes a living being.

Many people think that a human being is created at the time of conception but this belief is not supported by the bible. The fact that a living sperm penetrates a living ovum resulting in the formation of a living fetus does not mean that the fetus is a living human being. According to the bible, a fetus is not a living person with a soul until after drawing its first breath.
After God formed man in Genesis 2 , He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.

In Job 33:4, it states: “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

Again, to quote Ezekiel 37:5&6, “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

In Exodus 21:22 it states that if a man causes a woman to have a miscarriage, he shall be fined; however, if the woman dies then he will be put to death. It should be apparent from this that the aborted fetus is not considered a living human being since the resulting punishment for the abortion is nothing more than a fine; it is not classified by the bible as a capital offense.

According to the bible, destroying a living fetus does not equate to killing a living human being even though the fetus has the potential of becoming a human being. One can not kill something that has not been born and taken a breath. This means that a stillborn would not be considered a human being either. Of course, every living sperm has the potential of becoming a human being although not one in a million will make it; the rest are aborted. .

God has decreed, for one reason or another, that at least one-third of all pregnancies shall be terminated by a spontaneous abortion during the first trimester of pregnancy and that a number will be terminated after the first trimester. It would appear that God does not have any more regard for the loss of a fetus than he does for the loss of a placenta or a foreskin despite the fact that these were living tissue as the result of conception.

In a number of versions of the bible, one of the commandments in Exodus 20 that was spoken by God to Moses states: “You shall not kill”. According to the Mosaic text, this should read “You shall not murder” since the bible has commandments stating that people shall be put to death for a number of different offenses. Exodus 21:17 states: “Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death.” There are other capital offenses in Exodus 21. Of course, the commandment “You shall not kill” is not present in the commandments written by God on the stone tablets. For those who are not familiar with the commandments on the stone tablets that were placed in the Ark of the Covenant, they are enumerated in Exodus 34. The popular ten commandments that are enumerated in Exodus 20 were spoken by God to Moses who then relayed them to his people; they were never written.

There is nothing in the bible to indicate that a fetus is considered to be anything other than living tissue and, according to scripture, it does not become a living being until after it has taken a breath.

[rurallib]

7. thank you very much, very helpful.

[lindysalsagal]

19. In many jewish families, a fetus is not viable until it

graduates from dental/law/medical school.

[LiberalArkie]

22. And in some of the Jewish families I knew, they parents said they would take the kid out if they

did not graduate.

[ErikJ]

23. lol. I think Israel has the most liberal pro-choice laws in the world.

Yet they are loved by the radicalized Christian prolifers.

[Hekate]

38. Fundy Christians will only love Israel until the Rapture, at which point if the Jews haven't.....

.....converted, the Raptured Christians will gleefully consign them to Hell Eternal.

[meow2u3]

29. DUzy

[WinkyDink]

47. :-)

[jwirr]

20. Thank you.

[lindysalsagal]

5. No, but it will tell you when to beat your wife and kill your slaves

and how. Among other pre-historic ideas we'd all be better off without.

[BlueJazz]

12. I saw my neighbor working this weekend. Damn, I hate to kill him...he's such a nice guy.

His wife and kids will forgive me. Maybe I'm suppose to kill them also?...it's all so complicated.

[lindysalsagal]

17. Tell me about it. My third wife has been acting up......

might be time to put her out in the street....just to keep the other 5 in line....

[ileus]

10. Somewhere in the first 10 commandments.

[Gothmog]

13. Here is the Jewish view on this issue

Abortion is actually required in some circumstances http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm#Abortion

Abortion

Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother's life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

An unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother's, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.

[rurallib]

14. Thank you very much

[jwirr]

16. There are a few that rw anti-abortion people use but that do

not refer directly to abortion. Otherwise no. One of my classmates is a minister and was asked that - he is the one who told us that there were no direct references to abortion and it is clear from history that there were abortions in that era of history.

[rurallib]

18. One of the things that prompted the discussion

was that IIRC abortion was actually practiced fairly widely during biblical times. Something in my past seems to remember stories of abortion recipes and methods being written down in Roman times.

[jwirr]

21. Yes.

[gratuitous]

24. Many good responses here

It shouldn't be surprising that abortion is not mentioned directly in the Bible; it's not a subject that the patriarchal culture that produced most of the biblical writings cared about.

As such, a "biblical" position against abortion has to be cobbled together by relating disparate verses and synthesizing a result. In the call to the prophet Jeremiah, Jeremiah has God saying, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." (Chapter 1, verse 5) Ordinarily, fundamentalists like to read the Bible literally but this verse is kind of a muddle, and extending God's call to one individual (Jeremiah) to a general statement presents many problems. For example, we know from basic biology that God doesn't form the fetus in the womb; it's a process called gestation. This is a verse that is probably better understood and interpreted as allegorical, the genesis (if you will) of Jeremiah's subsequent career.

The Jeremiah verse, along with the introduction to John's gospel (Chapter 1, verses 1-14) and the second creation story in Genesis (Chapter 2 verse 7), are stitched together to try to present a coherent, consistent description of intent for all peoples for all time. Again, there's a big problem. The creation stories that lead off Genesis (the first book in the Bible) have their roots in the Hebrew oral tradition hundreds of years before Jeremiah, who lived (and wrote?) hundreds of years before John's gospel got to its final written form. God sure took God's sweet time putting together this story that's so vitally important to modern day persons seeking a biblical justification for meddling in the question of abortion.

Christian fundamentalists have a singular approach to the Bible, taking it as the God-breathed literal truth when it suits them, and spiritualizing or allegorizing passages when that literal interpretation yields an unsuitable result. This isn't so very different from other interpreters, except that non-literalists don't claim to be literalists in possession of the One True Interpretation.

[rurallib]

26. excellent analysis

one of the things that started the discussion is that the bible thumpers also seem to have a real problem citing a direct passage that condemns homosexuality. The 2 or 3 passages they do cite have been widely subjected to very different interpretations by secular historians. Thus it made us wonder if there were another such set of "interpreted" passages in reference to abortion.

The bible appears to be one malleable set of books.

Reading some Bart Ehrman there is also the very distinct probability of so many stories being rewritten by those who copied bibles in the dark & middle ages, not to mention the game of 'telephone' that would have probably seen may changes in the oral tradition.

[LeftyMom]

25. They like this one, but it only works out of context.

Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

They generally drop that last clause because it makes it obvious that it's not a general statement about god having a plan for every little wombbooger, it's a literary device about a young man who is going to fulfil a prophecy. Just to prove the point, the passage continues with Jeremiah whining about how he's too young and God should call back later, because apparently Jeremiah is Jon Snow minus the glorious hair.

Fundamentalist prooftexts usually make no damn sense in context, but believers who actually read their pack of lies tend not to stay believers so I guess that shouldn't surprise.

[rurallib]

27. your last line says a bundle - thanks

[MisterP]

35. exegesis is for Commies and Mexican Jesuits!

[Generic Brad]

28. Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You

In other words - treat women with the same level of respect you expect in return. So those opposed to abortion should lay off the intimidation tactics. It's just not right.

[SummerSnow]

30. Hope this helps...

Psalms 139:16

You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

Psalm 139:16-18Common English Bible (CEB)

16 Your eyes saw my embryo,
and on your scroll every day was written that was being formed for me,[a]

[oberliner]

32. Is the fetus a person?

The Catholic church has clearly said that a fetus is a person and therefore killing a fetus is akin to killing a child and is therefore morally abhorrent.

[Le Taz Hot]

34. Yeah, well, the Catholic Church has rules

against buggering young children but that didn't seem to stop hundreds of priests doing just that WHILE the church covered it up for DECADES.

FUCK. THE. CATHOLIC. CHURCH.

[PeaceNikki]

45. I find the Catholic Church to be morally abhorrent

[Alittleliberal]

36. I bible is absolutely NOT anti abortion.

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.
The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

Here's a few useful links.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/bible.shtml

[AirmensMom]

44. Exactly

This makes the 6th commandment n/a because it's clear that abortion is not considered murder in the Bible.

[bhikkhu]

37. Specifically in Genesis, life enters the body with the first breath

as in the creation of Adam. Its a very common and old spiritual notion, that the soul and the breath are synonymous. It would follow that until there is breath, there is no soul.

Of course, the whole idea of relying on that sort of thing in this day and age to regulate a society is absurd, but since you asked...

[longship]

39. Obligatory reference.

Enjoy.

BTW, great OP and responses!!!!

R&K

[daleo]

40. In the Bible, causing a woman to abort is a finable offence

Rather like speeding is now.

[Recursion]

41. Exodus 21:22 is often cited

If two men are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she miscarries, but the woman is not injured, the offender must pay such fine as the husband demands and a judge allows. But if there she is injured, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

[Douglas Carpenter]

42. Leviticus 19 commands that if a slaveowner beats his pregnant female slave and causes her to

lose her pregnancy - the slave owner must free the slave from bondage. This is the same commandment in the same Chapter for the slave owner who beats a slave and causes them to become lame. But there no direct reference to a purposeful abortion anywhere in the Bible.

[mnhtnbb]

43. You will cause the fundies to become enraged if you bring up Numbers 5:11-31

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+5%3A11-31&version=NIV


There are many people who interpret this procedure-- which God gave to Moses (no less) that could
be used by a husband to determine whether his wife had committed adultery--as indicating God
being amenable to an unfaithful wife losing a pregnancy as a result of 'failing the test'.
The "test" includes administering a potion that could be an abortifacient.

Fundies go absolutely nuts when you point this out to them.