Not a 100% pacifist here, but since someone asked, here some things "that could be done":

[redgreenandblue]

I am in the camp of those who believe that the rise of ISIS, and radical Islam in general, has first and foremost political rather than religious reasons. While I think that one cannot achieve a zero probability of an attack like the one in Paris occuring, I think there are a lot of things that would make such an attack much more unlikely, which are non-military in nature.

Just a few from the top of my head:

1. Recognize that at this point, that advocating "war" is actually advocating "more war". The war has been going on for nearly a decade and a half. There isn't a question as to whether Western nations should go to war, that question was answered long ago, the question is whether said war should be escalated. Such an escalation, if one were fully comitted to it, would require a renewed ground-invasion of both Iraq and Syria. In between all the tough talk I see no one actually advocating that. "More airstrikes" is not really a change of policy of any significance. So people who say "we should bomb the shit out of them" are actually arguing for the status quo, and nothing else.

2. Recognize that it speaks to the privilege of Americans and Western Europeans that one can be at war for a decade and a half, and expect no shots to ever be fired on home soil. A century ago this idea would have seemed ridiculous.

3. Recognize that in some form or another a Sunni-majority country emerging from fragments of Iraq and Syria is inevitable and that the idea of a West-friendly central government of Iraq is a pipe dream that needs to be abandoned. ISIS or Daesh or one group or another will inevitably play the role of the militant arm representing the Sunni population.

4. Recognize that despite the rhetoric, the external threat to the stability of Europe is actually minimal. ISIS will not conquer Europe or even attempt to do so. At the end of the day, it is all about regional politics.

5. Cut ties with the house of Saud.

6. Get off the oil. Switch to renewables.

7. Push for Palestinian statehood and take a more even handed role in the IP conflict.

8. Fully prosecute those responsible for the Iraq war.

I'm sure there are many more things that could help. Feel free to add.

[lovemydog]

1. One addition and in my opinion one subtraction.

Treat these incidents more as police actions than as war actions. Prosecute the criminals. Try and wipe out the terror cells, which is what we are already doing.

I disagree with 8. I think it would drag democrats into it too and become a litigious mess. I've never bought into that because I think it's not only a waste of time but it would make us look like a banana republic. Also, I think there's no chance of it happening because democrats wouldn't support it nor would republicans.

[Enthusiast]

4. We are already like a banana republic. That is what happens when the cabal in control exert their

Last edited Mon Nov 16, 2015, 10:02 AM - Edit history (1)

influence. We're just what they wanted all along. Their experience in the care and feeding of a banana republic is legendary. They control everything including outcome of elections. They® are happily making this nation into an idiocracy.

US intelligence, a plaything of the real owners of this country, decided decades ago that this democracy thing was unsafe for the country. The American voter might elect an actual liberal. And liberals are too close to being commies.

[lovemydog]

5. Okay. Fair answer.

But it begs the question, what difference does it make who is President?

[7962]

7. Right again. If all thats true, it really doesnt matter.

Which is why I dont really see it that way

[Enthusiast]

10. At least a president can control the public dialog to some degree. They can employ the bully pulpit.

For example a President could say, "It its present form, the American heath care system is too costly and wasteful. There are too many unnecessary profit taking elements built into the system. This reality is draining the entire American economy of efficiency, and it is depriving the American people of the reasonably priced heath care they deserve. Most of our citizens favor a new single payer system, free from the massive influence of greedy profit takers. Let us work on the behalf of the American people and make a new single payer system a reality."

[7962]

6. And it would look just like an Obama impeachment hearing

Which is something that would hand the Dems a '16 victory without even having to campaign!!

[lovemydog]

9. LOL. So long as our nominee

doesn't choose Joe Lieberman as a running mate or run away from President Obama's strong record.

[7962]

19. Lieberman! Wow, havent heard THAT name in awhile! nt

[patsimp]

14. These are war actions.

[FounderY]

2. Yes, things could be done.

Like Katy Perry.

[Enthusiast]

3. We shall never fully prosecute those responsible for the Iraq war.

The official explanation for 9/11 and the Iraq War was too carefully presented to the American people in the media. Maybe after Cheney and Poppy Bush die of old age the nation will admit to some of it. But then American media would never willingly admit their complicity.

Those responsible for the Iraq War are still in power. Don't believe it? Turn on the fucking TV. The man behind the curtain is still back there. I'd like to bust his head. He is the real terrorist, the true enemy.

MSNBC, give Phil Donahue a new prime time program. Don't restrict his dialogue in any way. Oh, you can't do that? Really? Imagine that.

[Kurska]

8. "ISIS or Daesh or one group or another will inevitably play the role of the militant arm"

This is the fatal flaw in your thinking. You seem to be under the delusion that ISIS just wants to represent local Sunnis in the Levant. In reality they are bent on world domination. They admit this themselves.

If your objective is only to keep things all quite on the western front for as long as possible, congrats this might work. Honestly though, there are bigger concerns here than just that.

[get the red out]

11. You've got it!

[AllyCat]

12. Really agree with #1,2,5,6 and 7

[BlueMTexpat]

13. Good points. In re your #4:

I don't believe that there will be a Sunni-led "majority" emerging from Iraq and Syria because Sunnis have long been minority populations in both countries. This didn't really mean much because both countries were quite secular until Bush-Cheney bumbled in with their catastrophic invasion of Iraq/removal of Saddam Hussein (for whom I had no love whatsoever, but ...) and, by their policies (imprisonment being a major factor), sponsorship of criminals like Chalabi, and support for Shia sectarians such as Al-Maliki, created and/or exacerbated religious frictions where none had meaningfully existed for many years. Assad and Syria are different matters. But without Iraq, we would not be seeing what is now happening in Syria, certainly not on the same scale.

There may indeed be Sunni-led governments (which may be what you meant) that emerge from this debacle or at least multi-sectarian ones that are committed to recognizing the rights of all religious sects if Western powers don't start dictating who can be an "acceptable" leader. Will Daesh be part of such? I fervently hope not because what its leaders - whoever and whatever they may be - have demonstrated is that they are outright thugs, not fit to rule anyone. But again, that should not be for Westerners to impose.

I also do not believe that the idea of "West-friendly" governments in the ME is necessarily a pipedream. But there is a LOT that most Western governments must learn and understand about the area. Above all, they should not be imposing their will on the people who live there.

Your #7 is very important, IMO. I can only dream for #8 to happen.

But I would also add the following:

- Work with the Kurds, who have proven to be exceptional allies, and if necessary, support separate nationhood if there is no multi-sectarian government that will fit them in and reflect their interests satisfactorily. What this will mean, I'm not sure. But the northern part of Iraq has actually functioned quite well as an autonomous region. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan

- STOP arming Syrian so-called "moderates." They work with and are part of Daesh. Haven't we yet realized that? We keep creating - and training - our own worst enemies.

JMHO

[Fast Walker 52]

15. all excellent ideas, and important things we could do, if we had a rational

government.

[daybranch]

16. I really only disagree with number 4.

Sunnis are not the majority in Iraq and to assume a Sunni led government is inevitable ignores several factors. Although the Sunni Wahhabi in Saudi Arabia bankroll ISIS, rtheir victory is anything but certain if Shiites from Iran join other Shiites in the struggle. Kurds are also very much against the Sunnis and will join the Shiites to stop the Sunnis. The best we can do is either supply the majority Shiites, the Kurds or even the Iranians or press our ally? Saudi Arabia to quit supporting ISIS.
Maybe standing with the majority rather than with rich dictators is the way to go.
Right now Saudi Arabia is quickly losing arable land due to climate change, i suspect they want friendly allies who can make up food shortages if the West pulls out of the middle east. Maybe when their funded attacks fail as they wil eventually they will see the need for mutual cooperation to address the problems of the middle east which will become less and less inhabitable as CO2 from burning their oil drives up temperatures. There will be no winners and survivals of their societies is far from certain unless they find sustainable ways to exist and that for Saudi Arabia will not be possible in their country alone. The blessing of oil deposits is a bane upon the sustainable development of the region which requires the equality necessary for sustainability.

[annabanana]

17. good post

Our leaders need a crash course in history

[Sienna86]

18. Highlighting 5 and 6

How is ISIS being funded? How does Saudi Arabia avoid incidents in their country?

We must move more strongly toward renewables, not only for the sake of our planet, but to move away from oil.

[geek tragedy]

20. You must have a very low opinion of Sunnis to suggest that Daesh is their

inevitable champion. Daesh does not represent mainstream Sunni Islam and it is utter nonsense to suggest that we just give them a state of their own and confer legitimacy upon them.

You're being rather glib in terms of what giving Daesh its own state would mean.

[hifiguy]

21. All worty of thought

These are worthy of immediate implementation (with all possible speed re Number 6):

5. Cut ties with the house of Saud.

6. Get off the oil. Switch to renewables.

7. Push for Palestinian statehood and take a more even handed role in the IP conflict.

8. Fully prosecute those responsible for the Iraq war.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

22. Several of these are obviously wrong, and virtually none would help deal with ISIS.

1) No, there are many more gears available and being debated

2) No, this betrays a really breathtaking ignorance of history.

3) Possible yes, inevitable no.

4) Probably true, FSVO minimal involving hundreds or thousands of deaths over the coming years (but spread about a continent of hundreds of millions of people)

5) This would make fighting ISIS harder, not easier.

6) Probably a good idea for other reasons, but not relevant.

7) A good idea for other reasons, but not relevant, andcertainly not going to happen.

8) Arguably a good idea, arguably not, but not relevant and certainly not going to happen.

[Yavin4]

23. I beg to differ. ISIS is an out-growth of a sectarian Islamic war.

Yes, our foreign policy exacerbated the situation, but this war was going to happen no matter what we did. It's somewhat arrogant to believe that it's ALL due to Western foreign policy, and all we have to do is change our policies.

For example, you cite, "Cut ties with the house of Saud". Do that, and there will be war between Saudi Arabia and Iran. You also state, "Get off the oil. Switch to renewables". That would de-stabilize the global economy and cannot be realistically done within a reasonable time line, unless you want more fracking in the U.S.

I don't advocate more war. I do advocate more diplomacy. We have to negotiate and work with the existing powers in the region, Saudi Arabia and Iran to create stability in the region. Work with them to quell ISIS, stabilize Iraq and Syria, and bring about a long term solution.

In the end, only the Middle Eastern nations can solve this crisis.

[jwirr]

24. Good list. Might want to add something about recognizing

the root causes of this political war such as droughts, food shortages, water shortages and poverty. If this is to be the future of the world we need to start learning how to deal with it without wars as wars just make the situation worse.