What I Discovered From Interviewing Imprisoned ISIS Fighters

[Turborama]

Last edited Tue Nov 17, 2015, 01:33 AM - Edit history (1)

What I Discovered From Interviewing Imprisoned ISIS Fighters
They’re drawn to the movement for reasons that have little to do with belief in extremist Islam.

By Lydia Wilson

Many assume that these fighters are motivated by a belief in the Islamic State, a caliphate ruled by a caliph…; that fighters all over the world are flocking to the area for a chance to fight for this dream. But this just doesn’t hold for the prisoners we are interviewing. They are woefully ignorant about Islam and have difficulty answering questions about Sharia law, militant jihad, and the caliphate.

He knows there is an American in the room, and can perhaps guess, from his demeanor and his questions, that this American is ex-military, and directs his "question," in the form of an enraged statement, straight at him. "The Americans came," he said. “They took away Saddam, but they also took away our security. I didn’t like Saddam, we were starving then, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started."

…This whole experience has been very familiar indeed to Doug Stone, the American general on the receiving end of this diatribe. "He fits the absolutely typical profile," Stone said afterward. …(It is) exactly the same profile as 80 percent of the prisoners then…and his number-one complaint about the security and against all American forces was the exact same complaint from every single detainee."

…These boys came of age under the disastrous American occupation after 2003, in the chaotic and violent Arab part of Iraq, ruled by the viciously sectarian Shia government of Nouri al-Maliki. …They are children of the occupation, many with missing fathers at crucial periods (through jail, death from execution, or fighting in the insurgency), filled with rage against America and their own government. They are not fueled by the idea of an Islamic caliphate without borders; rather, ISIS is the first group since the crushed Al Qaeda to offer these humiliated and enraged young men a way to defend their dignity, family, and tribe. This is … the promise of a way out of their insecure and undignified lives; the promise of living in pride as Iraqi Sunni Arabs, which is not just a religious identity but cultural, tribal, and land-based, too.

Full article: http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

ETA this for those who think it's merely "apologetics".

[tblue37]

1. +1 million! KnR. nt

[Fumesucker]

2. " When you came here, the civil war started."

Exactly as predicted by both Dick Cheney and Bernie Sanders.

[BeanMusical]

7. In this video from 1994 Cheney says what would happen if Baghdad had been invaded:

In this interview from April 15th, 1994 Dick Cheney reveals the reasons why invading Baghdad and toppling Saddam Hussein's regime wouldn't be a great idea. He also stipulates that "not very many" American soldiers' lives were worth losing to take out Saddam during the Gulf War.

[INdemo]

84. But that was before Iraq became a war for O I L

[LiberalArkie]

85. Dick Cheney became CEO of Halliburton in 1995. That is why he changed his mind. Iraq

became a profit center for him.

[BeanMusical]

92. He's such an evil scumbag.

[LiberalArkie]

93. Just an opportunist CEO.

[bjobotts]

98. Then Paul Bremmer fired the entire Iraq army

What would you do if foreigners took all the jobs away, and there was no food or water or utilities except for the few living in the right place like the green zone. Bush/Cheney cartel war crimes destroyed millions. As a nation we must face our own hypocrisy for allowing these war criminals to get away with their mass destruction. It is killing and haunting us now but republicans still haven't learned and would do it all again.

[BeanMusical]

123. +1 Well said.

[trillion]

3. Execellent, excellent post.

[burrowowl]

4. K&R!!!!!!

Excellent post!

[Yorktown]

5. True of the Iraqis, but what about the foreign fighters?

There is a radical islam stoked in mosques worldwide by preachers funded by petrodollars.

Especially in Europe.

[MattBaggins]

33. Is that a joke

those numbers barely register

[Yorktown]

36. Are you joking?

Just for France, that's 2000 folks who went or are currently in Syria (a few hundred died).

Now, a question for you: when they come back, do they assimilate into society?

A clue: some already returned and tried or managed terror attacks.

But hey, "those numbers barely register", right?

[Turborama]

38. Where did you get 2,000 from?

[Yorktown]

40. The press

Just my first google hit, something from early 2015:

Manuel Valls révèle le nombre de Français partis faire le jihad
Par RFI Publié le 14-04-2015 Modifié le 14-04-2015 à 05:32

Plus de 1 550 Français ou résidents français ont rejoint les rangs de Daech en Syrie et en Irak,

[Turborama]

41. Can you share the links to that and the source of the map, please?

TIA

[Yorktown]

95. Don't you have google? Here you are:

http://www.rfi.fr/france/20150414-jihadisme-valls-revele-chiffres-nombre-francais-engages-france-daech-attentats-suicide

[Turborama]

107. Don't you know it's important to use links?

[Yorktown]

108. Not when a right click on Apple gives me links directly

[Turborama]

112. You didn't know it's bad etiquette not to provide links to your sources? Oh, ok.

[Yorktown]

120. You've been around far longer than me.

Sorry for the lapse of etiquette.

[Turborama]

42. Sorry to be picky, but you added over 30% to 1,550 n/t

[Yorktown]

97. I rounded end 2015 estimates. 1132 in November, 1550 in April, 1770 end September (links)

1132 http://www.justice-paix.cef.fr/IMG/pdf/Justice_et_paix_Hecker_janvier_2015_v2.pdf

1550 http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2015/04/13/01016-20150413ARTFIG00374-manuel-valls-devoile-le-nombre-de-francais-kamikazes-en-syrie-et-en-irak.php

1770 http://www.rfi.fr/france/20150414-jihadisme-valls-revele-chiffres-nombre-francais-engages-france-daech-attentats-suicide

[Turborama]

106. So, no-one really knows, but the latest guess is 1,132. Which a huge difference to 2,000. n/t

[Yorktown]

109. No, the latest figure I linked to is 1770

[Turborama]

110. "2015 estimates. 1132 in November"

[Yorktown]

111. November 2014

[Turborama]

113. Oh, my. You really are all over the place with this, aren't you.

[Yorktown]

114. Look, I drew an explanatory graph. Here. (summing my 3 links)

[Turborama]

115. The latest estimate I could find is 1,000 to 1,200

Here: http://www.rferl.org/contentinfographics/foreign-fighters-syria-iraq-is-isis-isil-infographic/26584940.html

[Yorktown]

118. The difference must be the dead (±300) and those in transit (±500)

If I remember well, the French interior ministry figures include these two groups.

[Thor_MN]

94. Hey, you are only incorrect by 22%. Not bad for making up numbers...

[Yupster]

37. Somewhere around one tenth of one percent - about one in a thousand or one in two thousand

So if we add 75,000 refugees from Syria, that would be , what around 40-70 terrorists on average?

If those numbers come out right, those 40-70 people would register somewhere.

[dreamnightwind]

68. ??? why are you doing that calculation, makes no sense to me

You can't extrapolate that from the posted chart, if that's what you're doing.

[MattBaggins]

39. Those numbers are faaaaaaarrr

from "erhmagerd mosques in Europe erhmagerd"

[Turborama]

121. lol n/t

[fbc]

6. Good article

thanks for posting

[BeanMusical]

8. Great article, thanks.

[Sherman A1]

9. Thanks for posting.

a good article.

[bemildred]

10. Indeed.

Revenge.

[melman]

12. Revenge against Parisian rock fans?

Sorry, not buying it.

[bemildred]

19. People who are bent upon revenge are notorious for their poor aim.

For example when we were attacked from Afghanistan, by Saudis, we responded by attacking both Afghanistan and Iraq. That second one is what these guys in the OP are complaining about.

A revengeful state of mind is not a thoughtful state of mind, it's an angry, impulsive state of mind. As one can see in the postings here all the time. It is the sort or state of mind that kills innocents in order to get at the guilty.

[Nevernose]

86. True statements but terrible examples

We knew in 2002 that invading Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and history has shown that Bushco planned it well before 9/11 occurred. It had nothing to do with revenge.

(I'm still not sure how I should feel or advocate about ISIS, however)

[blackspade]

99. Except that the Bushies and the M$M convinced the majority of Americans that

Iraq did have a part in 9/11.

[KingCharlemagne]

23. Ahem - France bombed Syria . . . on Sept. 27 - nt

[Android3.14]

11. We knew the fallout from that disaster would take generations

A public prosecution of the W, Cheney and Rumsfield would sure go a long way to finding some justice in all this.

[KingCharlemagne]

26. A public prosecution would lay one foundation stone for putting to bed 100 yeears of Sykes-

Picot and its legacies.

Tony Blair must also stand in the dock, limo.

[LanternWaste]

129. In regards to modern terrorism, ignorance of the Sykes-Picot Accord

In regards to modern terrorism, ignorance, or even minimization of the Sykes-Picot Accord as it relates to events in the 21st century is a primary tell that the person is a dramatic waste of more useful time.

That one secret agreement set the very foundation for the instability, the regionalism, and the lack of unity in the middle-east.

[KingCharlemagne]

135. well-put - nt

[underpants]

13. Marking for later read

[FLPanhandle]

14. I found the article full of apologetic bullshit.

"ISIS is the first group since the crushed Al Qaeda to offer these humiliated and enraged young men a way to defend their dignity, family, and tribe"?!?! - By fucking killing and raping their way across their own country, families and tribes?

My god, this is the type of tripe that liberals get made fun for. Ol Lydia apologizing for these killers and rapists.

Some people will buy anything if it includes a dose of self-loathing and blame.

Stop making excuses for them, they own their own behavior. They own the blame that comes with it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

16. You and me both

"They are woefully ignorant about Islam and have difficulty answering questions about Sharia law, militant jihad, and the caliphate."

Well guess what. I'd be willing to bet the following statement is also true.

"They (members of a militant Christian millenarian group) are woefully ignorant about Christianity and have difficulty answering questions about canon law, Christian Nationalism, and church history.

You don't have to be well-versed in the nuances of theology and history to be sucked in to an extremist position and be motivated by the few religious tenets you do grasp and have internalized.

Heck, I'd be willing to bet the same can be said of almost any member of a religion, extremist or mainstream. Many people have a basic understanding of their faith and it consists of what they hear from the pulpit rather than any systematic study of their religion.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

24. If you can cut through the drivel about all this that our woefully

ignorant media coverage and leaders spew, you can hear small snippets of intelligence here and there.

This article adds credence to what the expert MoJoe gave two minutes to before allowing the neo-cons to frame the issue. Then, giving air time to Douche and Douche (McCain and Graham) about bombing and occupation.

It is not about Islam. The Islamic universe believes ISIS are thugs. This is not a traditional war. This is a police and intelligence issue. It is an issue that needs to analyzed intelligently.

Anyone here in the US could get their hands on weapons and waltz into a big venue and kill a hundred people. But lesser minds are looking at it like Country A with red uniforms attacked Country B with green uniforms. So naive

Just think what the world would be like if we had taken the trillions spent of the wars and used that money to beef up intelligence and security.

[trotsky]

29. This:

You don't have to be well-versed in the nuances of theology and history to be sucked in to an extremist position and be motivated by the few religious tenets you do grasp and have internalized.

Nail, meet hammer.

[polly7]

21. I don't think it's apologizing for them or their brutal ways at all.

It's explaining why so many disillusioned, hopeless people full or rage could be turned toward their own brand of vengeance.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

25. +1

[Act_of_Reparation]

22. It's typical western ethnocentrism.

The right-wingers think we're better than everyone else, the liberals think we're worse than everyone else. Both treat the Islamic world as if it were filled with automatons devoid of logic and bereft of agency; who lack their own culture, history, and politics; and who simply cannot help but attack civilians in their own countries and abroad because they are either 1) evil (if you're a conservative), or 2) victims (if you're a liberal). In either case, The West is the central theme; everything that happens, good or ill, happens only within the context of OUR culture, OUR history, and OUR politics.

[Yorktown]

27. Remarkably put

I enjoyed:

The right-wingers think we're better than everyone else, the liberals think we're worse than everyone else.

As for:

Both treat the Islamic world as if it were filled with automatons devoid of logic and bereft of agency

I would agree and mention that the agency is called Islam, and that it is one that is in its current interpretation (as influenced by the Qataris et al) problematic to say the least.

[Crunchy Frog]

59. Do you know what "agency" means in this context?

[Yorktown]

74. a thing through which power is exerted or an end is achieved (Merriam Webster)

[Crunchy Frog]

88. At the risk of sounding pedantic, I believe that you are incorrect in your definition.

Based on the context of the sentence, I'd say that "agency" is being used in the social sciences sense.

In social science, agency is the capacity of individuals to act independently and to make their own free choices.

One's agency is one's independent capability or ability to act on one's will.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(sociology)

If you look at the comments on the comments at the Merriam Webster link, there's quite a bit of discussion of that usage.

I have never, ever seen a religion referred to as "an agency", as opposed to an office or an organization within a religious group.

I believe that the writer is suggesting that it's wrong to assume that Muslims are incapable of exercising free will or freedom of choice.

[Act_of_Reparation]

124. You are correct.

I believe that the writer is suggesting that it's wrong to assume that Muslims are incapable of exercising free will or freedom of choice.

That is exactly what I was getting at.

[KittyWampus]

30. That is very well put.

[trotsky]

31. GREAT point. n/t

[joshcryer]

76. Western cultural influence is very real.

To the point that some liberals call it cultural imperialism, and that language has been expressed in ISIS propaganda videos.

[Act_of_Reparation]

80. So what?

No one said it wasn't real.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

131. This should be an OP

There's a gray area between being a xenophobic bigot and a simpering apologetic doormat.

[LanternWaste]

132. Those are very creative allegations that could actually entertain consideration

Those are very creative allegations that could actually entertain consideration were they objectively sourced.

As it stands though, it's merely a broad, sweeping and emotional allegation.

[MattBaggins]

35. Perhaps you should stop seeking things to be indignant about

Showing how the enemy perceives his world is not excusing them

[leftynyc]

45. Well put

Is it any wonder the far left gets little respect and even less representation in our government? Perhaps she can explain how beheadings, selling women into slavery, murder and mayhem gives these vermin back their dignity. Vomit.

[Martin Eden]

70. I find your post to be full of ignorant emotion-laden conclusions

The article in the OP was an account of what has been discovered so far from interviewing captured ISIS fighters. General Doug Stone confirmed the prisoner featured in the article fits the profile of 80% of the prisoners, their #1 complaint being how their security was shattered by the US invasion.

Tell me, FLPanhandle, do you think the US General is making shit up to apologize for killers and rapists?

The information in the article isn't about making excuses or placing blame. It's about gaining an accurate understanding of those who are fighting for ISIS. The opposite of knowledge is ignorance. Any strategy to defeat this enemy has a much better chance of success if it is based on knowledge instead of ignorance.

[blackspade]

100. +1000

The jingoism is strong at DU sometimes.

[joshcryer]

75. I had a completely different take.

Because at the heart of it is money.

[Jesus Malverde]

90. agreed...nt

[Hissyspit]

119. Nope.

And analyzing causation is not the same thing as making excuses.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/03/mehdi-hasan-how-islamic-islamic-state

"Isis members, he says, are using religion to advance a political vision, rather than using politics to advance a religious vision. “To give themselves a bit more legitimacy, they use Islam as their justification. It’s not about religion, it’s about identity . . . You identify with the victims, [with] the guys being killed by your enemies.”

[LanternWaste]

130. Many people see an analysis as an apology if their bias demands as such.

Many people see an analysis as an apology when their bias demands as such. I dismiss them immediately as either sub-literate or under-educated, regardless of the petulant irrelevancies of self-loathing or the dramatic dogma of "own the blame...", pretending that such can be considered as substantial dialog.

(space to provide rationalizations full of overly-emotional hysterics provided free of charge below)

[skepticscott]

15. So what the fuck does this have to do with the Paris attacks?

Other than naked apologism and attempts to shift the blame for the murders from radical Islam?

Rank and file ISIS fighters don't care about Islam, but are really just angry about the invasion of Iraq that caused further destabilization in the region? So why the fuck are they attacking FRANCE and murdering its citizens? France REFUSED to participate in or support the invasion of Iraq.

[jeff47]

43. France bombed Libya and Syria.

So no, they did not REFUSE to participate in all of the violence.

Also, terrorists are going to attack where they can attack. It's a lot easier for them to infiltrate France than infiltrate the US, due to proximity.

[skepticscott]

46. Nice try

Here's what the article quoted directly as the "real" reason for the murders:

The Americans came," he said. “They took away Saddam, but they also took away our security. I didn’t like Saddam, we were starving then, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started."

…This whole experience has been very familiar indeed to Doug Stone, the American general on the receiving end of this diatribe. "He fits the absolutely typical profile," Stone said afterward. …(It is) exactly the same profile as 80 percent of the prisoners then…and his number-one complaint about the security and against all American forces was the exact same complaint from every single detainee."

No mention of France at all.

And seriously? They attacked France because it was easier, not because they blamed it for anything?

[jeff47]

48. So you have trouble understanding the concept of time?

An Iraqi insurgent can't be upset about France bombing Syria before France bombs Syria.

That interrogation did not take place yesterday. It took place years ago. It is being used to demonstrate the thought processes that lead to people becoming insurgents. Whether that's in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Kenya, or joining ISIS in Syria.

[skepticscott]

50. Seriously?

Do you have a point, other than to agree with me that the posted article is a red herring as far as the attacks on Paris are concerned?

And who exactly are they insurgents against? And why is every bit of their efforts not focussed on attacking THAT target, since it is much closer than France? According to you, terrorists attack what's closer, right?

[jeff47]

51. Yes, seriously. Time flows in one direction.

As a result, an interrogation that took place before the Syrian civil war can't talk about events in the Syrian civil war.

Do you have a point, other than to agree with me that the posted article is a red herring as far as the attacks on Paris are concerned?

I don't agree with you. Your attempt at a "gotcha" is the person being interrogated did not mention France, before France actually started attacking.

So either you've got a new and exciting theory about how time works, or you're flailing about seeking to deflect.

And who exactly are they insurgents against?

Everyone.

Seriously, that's the point. They're pissed off, hungry, and scared. Forces far beyond their strength came an and utterly destroyed their stable life and left them with nothing.

So they join insurgencies as a way to "get back at" those that ruined their lives, get a modicum of security, and most importantly get a little hope that they can make tomorrow a little better than the utter shithole they were left with.

That's the entire point of this article, which you apparently didn't bother to read.

You can't win "the war on terrorism" when you don't bother to find out why people are turning to terrorism. The first step is understanding that the "foot soldiers" do not have the same motivations as the leaders. Just like every other armed conflict in history.

And why is every bit of their efforts not focussed on attacking THAT target, since it is much closer than France? According to you, terrorists attack what's closer, right?

No, they attack where they can attack. France was easier, so they attacked France.

[KingCharlemagne]

52. Ahem - France bombed Syria . . . on Sept. 27 - nt

[Martin Eden]

71. The article isn't about the Paris attacks, nor does it claim to be.

You're reading too much into it.

The article is about the profile of the typical ISIS fighter captured on that battlefield. As such, it provides some insight. It has nothing whatsoever to do with apology or blame.

No doubt the leaders of ISIS and the members of the terrorist cell in Europe would have a much different profile.

[skepticscott]

77. It is obviously posted in response to those attacks

and its purpose here is equally obvious. It came out a month ago..why is it being brought out now? Coincidence? I think not.

[Martin Eden]

79. You assume motives that were not expressed.

The article has good information, regardless of the timing.

I judge the article on its content.

[melman]

17. Here's the suspected mastermind of the Paris attacks

[img][/img]

This motherfucker grew up in Belgium.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/16/abdelhamid-abaaoud-suspected-mastermind-of-paris-terror-attacks

[Octafish]

18. ''The Americans came...''

And bombed the arms and heads off little children and whoever else got in the way of our oil.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

28. Exactly. And the GOP's answer is to bomb the hell out of them again. nt

[restorefreedom]

34. yup. dick fucking cheney should be rotting in prison. nt

[Zorra]

44. ^This^ nt

[polly7]

20. Great article. nt.

[KittyWampus]

32. Cool Story Bro! The highlights offered in the OP will be popular w/many DU'ers

cause it confirms their own preconceived notions about the USA, the Middle East, Muslims and history.

[Logical]

56. Gullible much? USA, USA, USA, USA!

[earthside]

78. In other words, it's our fault.

You can take those French flag overlays off your Facebook profile photo because, you know, you should be feeling sorry for the alienated young men driven to join Daesh.

Gosh, those Daesh fighters might even be Christians or Buddhists because religion has nothing to do with what is going on in Syria and Iraq at all!



Look, we all know we have to guard against an emotional overreaction ... we need to combat Islamophobia.
But, jeez, it was radical Islamists that flew the planes into the towers and it was radical Islamists that killed 129 people in Paris on Friday.

On the other hand, maybe we ought to be also careful about the liberal tendency to find some kind of sociological excuse for those who would indeed kill us.

[blackspade]

102. And what would those "preconceived notions" be?

[whatthehey]

47. So they destroy non-Islamic religious sites, kill non-Muslims of all races

But they do this because they are pissed at Americans?

I certainly wouldn't fault them for being pissed at Americans, but surely somebody asked the follow up "why does being pissed at Americans translate into beheading Yazidis and blowing up Petra?"

[Bernardo de La Paz]

82. The IS foot soldiers do as they are told. Ordinary IS are not ideological: article's point. nt

[ananda]

49. Very eye-opening!

It gets to the heart of a very difficult matter ... and this is
a matter that goes back to the crazy Bush obsession with Saddam
Hussein.

[Blue_Tires]

53. So what about all the middle-class Westerners flocking to join them?

Why have they slaughtered way more of their fellow Muslims than they have white westerners?

Why do they rape and enslave their own Muslim women, selling them at markets for as little as $10?

Shall I go on?

Not everything is the fault of big, bad Washington, and just because they've been indoctrinated to believe so, that doesn't make it true... Shame on Wilson not being able to keep her fucking head on straight...

[geek tragedy]

54. That's nice. They all still need to die. nt

[Logical]

57. Lets bomb some weddings! nt

[geek tragedy]

58. No, just groups of ISIS fighters. nt

[Logical]

60. Lol, yes, because we never kill innocents! You a bush fan i assume. Nt

[geek tragedy]

61. you need a new handle nt

[Logical]

62. You need a new political view point. Nt

[geek tragedy]

63. Hey, go ahead and issue a public apology to Daesh, I'm sure that

will get them to change their ways.

You could offer to convert too. I'm sure appeasement will work with these poor misunderstood souls.

[Logical]

64. Kill them all, let god sort them out! Nt

[geek tragedy]

65. I think your idea of just surrendering the entire planet to them makes more sense nt

[Logical]

66. LOL, yes, because for you there is no in between! I get you now! nt

[geek tragedy]

67. What are you suggesting, that we deploy police and serve arrest warrants? nt

[snooper2]

101. You are president of the USA, what would you actually do

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

133. "Hey, Paris....shit happens"

Then probably start babbling about the privilege of soccer and rock concerts.

[DirkGently]

55. Resources. Security. We fight over resources and security.

Religious fervor can exacerbate things by proposing that the universe somehow validates political rhetoric (Hello, Mike Huckabee) but it doesn't, by itself, cause anything.

Dick Cheney himself once said that a war in Iraq would create a quagmire and destabilize the entire region. But then he apparently noticed the oil fields.

I think ISIS is being run as a business as much as anything else. A source of employment, empowerment, and wealth. Substitute Islam with whatever other cultural or religious framework you want in that setting, and you'd still have chaos and bloodshed.

And now we own it. The Middle East and the West are deeper into this bloody entanglement than ever, and there is no clear way forward. Terrorism and chaos will end when we stop the cycle of terrorism and chaos, when we stop the cycle of terrorism and chaos.

[Martin Eden]

69. Huge K&R -- **MUST READ**

Understanding why and how people become ISIS fighters is critically important to any potential solution.

[skepticscott]

72. This couldn't be more intellectually bankrupt

If you interviewed American soldiers about why they volunteered for and fought in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, what reasons would they give? We know...we've heard them. "To serve America". "Saddam attacked us on 9-11". "Saddam had weapons of mass destruction". "I wanted to protect my family and my country".

But even if every single one of those individual soldiers were absolutely sincere about that, would anyone but a moron believe that those were the REAL reasons that war happened, the REAL motivations of the people who initiated and prosecuted it? Anyone? Anyone? How many soldiers would you expect to say "I fought so that Halliburton and the rest of the military industrial complex could get richer" or "I fought to secure Iraqi oil fields for American-controlled interests" or "I fought so that our leaders could feel like tough, macho assholes"?

Exactly.

So why are we expected to believe the same nonsense, the same bankrupt logic, in this case?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

83. The article makes your point (ordinary fighters are not ideological like leaders). Duh. nt

[skepticscott]

91. It should be duh

But unfortunately, the OP and others are trying to use it to make the exact opposite point, and to argue that the underlying motivation for ISIS and what it does is something other than fundamentalist religion.

[kairos12]

73. This article is way too nuanced and thoughtful for the binary mind of rethugs to grasp.

[Xithras]

81. Being an ISIS fighter is a lot like being in the Nazi SS

It doesn't matter why you joined or what your backstory is. You have willingly dedicated your life to an organization built to promote war, ethnic cleansing, rape and genocide. You have willingly put aside your humanity to spread death and pain to innocents.

Plenty of German death camp guards were "nice guys" who didn't really hate those they were guarding and executing, but simply wanted the stability and safety that the Nazi's offered and the extra rations and money to support their families that came along with being in the SS. They killed and did horrific things simply because it was beneficial to them personally and helped their families. We still executed most of them after WW2, and more than half a century later we're still actively hunting the SS who slipped through the cracks.

Certain organizations are so inherently evil and barbaric that simply having membership in them should be regarded as sufficient evidence to treat them as genocidal monsters. The Nazi SS was one. ISIS is another.

[blackspade]

103. Agreed. The article underscores that very point.

There is a history that leads to these groups.
In the case of the Nazis it was the aftermath of WWI and in the case of ISIS it is the aftermath of the the American misadventure in Iraq.
Understanding the historical connection does not remove the culpability of these two groups.
However, understanding the historical connections can lead to a way forward.
Unfortunately, many Americans and some here at DU can't see that history impacts the present and undermines the future when it is ignored.

[Duppers]

87. Bravo for this article!

Much needed clarification.


Thanks for posting this.

[Beowulf42]

89. Reply 1.0

So what does the US do. We all know Bush/Cheney fucked up Iraq but our typical answer will be to bomb them into the stone age. Soooo what do we do to make the result less deadly for each and every Middle-Eastern?

[blackspade]

96. Oh, crap.

This is far worse than radicalism.

This is the very definition of blow back.

[Thinkingabout]

104. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING justifies ISIS attacking a christian group on a mountain in Iraq,

Killing the men and kidnapping the women and girls so they could rape and abuse them.

[politicman]

116. true, but

True, but nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing justifies invading countries and bombing the shit out of 100,000s of thousands of civilians just to get control of their oil.

Nothing and I mean nothing justifies imposing sanctions on a country for 10 years which resulted in the deaths of 500,000 babies just so that country doesn't sell its oil in Euros instead of U.S dollars.


See, we can sit here all day and act like ISIS and other thugs are evil and worse than everybody else, but a bullet from an Isis gun kills an innocent a lot more gently than a 500 pound bomb dropped from one of our supposedly heroic fighter pilots.


If ISIS are evil for killing innocent people, then what does that make the West for killing way more innocent people and way more harshly with huge bombs dropped from a distance.

[Thinkingabout]

122. Invading Iraq was terrible, nothing can or will change this fact, to say this is the reason the acts

Of terrorism is acceptable is worse than the invasion. To suggest we should allow ISIS to continue to kidnap women and girls to rape and abuse them and not to take action is more cruel, is not acceptable. I love peace and hate war, I WILL NOT accept the actions of ISIS. It is totally unacceptable to prop up ISIS because of the invasion of Iraq. For those who says it is acceptable needs to think about the horrible abuse of women and girls, it needs to stop, put themselves in position of the innocent people, would any want to be in this position.

[politicman]

128. The only people excusing anything is those that accept collateral damage

where did I ever excuse Isis's terrible actions? I didn't.

What I did was attempt to show the hypocrisy of many people on here that are all up in arms that Isis must be destroyed because they do terrible things to civilians, but who don't put a a quarter of the same energy into denouncing when the west kills innocent people, which it has been doing for decades before Isis existed and which it is still doing to this day.


Killing of innocent life is never acceptable, never under no circumstances.
Why is some innocent life more precious than others?

I wanted to show that America rained bombs down on Iraq for a decade killing many more innocent than Isis has so far, yet everyone was expected to just move on and accept the fact that the perpetrators bush and co didn't get tried for their crime.

What about Albright and her co., she actually made comments that 500,000 Iraqi babies dying due to sanctions was an acceptable price to pay, and instead of her being punished for her role in it, she finishes out her term and is looked upon favourably by many.

Do I need to lay out the same kind of things with Libya, the Palestinians, Arica, etc because I can do it.


Point being that every time something like Paris happens their is outrage on these boards and across the western world that someone like Isis is so heartless as to target innocent people, yet these same outraged people excuse the murder of innocents by the west that occurs in a daily basis Because they couch it in the words 'collateral damage'.

Moral hypocrisy is what is it.

[Thinkingabout]

134. I have to think about what is the needs of today, I can't change the other actions. ISIS is a cruel

bunch of thugs, their life is inflicting pain and suffering on others, I will not excuse them for their actions. There will be actions.

[Thinkingabout]

127. Tell me this, what is complaining about an invasion by Bush's choice going to accomplish?

[Martin Eden]

125. You might have a point if that's what the OP was trying to do

Otherwise, you're just stating the obvious.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

117. KnR! n/t

[DinahMoeHum]

126. What Lydia Wilson says were also said by the FBI folks. . .

. . .working in the "bin Laden/al Qaeda group". Over 10-15 years ago.

For further guidance, Google the words "Ali Soufan", "Jack Cloonan" and "FBI"

ie.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0801.cloonan.html