The Pope is wrong, this is not a "piecemeal WWIII"

[edhopper]

This is a conflict against a small force of radical jihadist, perhaps 30 thousand strong. They have taken advantage of an area of the world that is in turmoil, partially caused by us. There is no threat of major powers going against each other. It is a regional conflict that could be ended quickly. Of course that would not end the chaos in that area.
So no Pope Francis this is not a crusade for you to justify use of force. And that kind of talk does make it sound like a war between Islam and Christianity.

[L. Coyote]

1. Isn't he referring to something much broader,

the destabalizing intervention in the Middle East and the global war on terror has been going on a lot longer than WWII now?

[edhopper]

3. It is still a small group of people

causing mayhem and chaos. It will continue to be a risk for the world at large. It is by no means a global conflict compared to the World Wars.

[daleanime]

5. And there's no danger...

of one becoming the other?

[edhopper]

25. No

What major powers do you see going to War over this?

[daleanime]

31. Any fire grows....

when you continue to add fuel.

[edhopper]

36. That fire has been burning for a long time

But look, I am not saying this isn't a troubling and dangerous conflict.
It just isn't anything like a World War.

[L. Coyote]

48. Tell that to the total of 4,491 U.S. service members killed in Iraq between 2003 and 2014,

Wikipedia "176,000–189,000 people were killed in violence in the Iraq war, including 134,000 civilians (using Iraq Body Count's figures), according to the findings of the Costs of War Project"

It is not a small group of people if you count everyone from Bush and Cheney (or Bush and Quayle) on down the chain. or are you saying they are not part of the conflict?

[edhopper]

49. C'mon

you know Iraq was not a real part of the fight with terrorism.

Are you saying the service members were killed because of jihadist terrorism.

And even still, it is still not a Global War.

Also when I say small group, I am comparing ISIS and Al Queda to national armies.

[KingCharlemagne]

79. A 'piecemeal WWIII' is a contradiction in terms. - nt

[edhopper]

81. A great point

I overlooked. Thanks.

[edhopper]

8. dubious and highly questionable veracity.

Belongs in the conspiracy forum.

[cantbeserious]

9. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Differently

eom

[edhopper]

10. you are entitled to your own opions

you are not entitled to your own facts.

[cantbeserious]

13. Is One Disputing The Existence Of Albert Pike - Is One Disputing He Wrote The Letter

Then please, take one's dispute up with historians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike

[edhopper]

28. the letter is a hoax

Notice that it is nowhere mentioned on his Wiki page.

I would rather not spend time talking about a pro-slavery anti-semite from 2 centuries ago.
This just doesn't belong in a rational discussion.

That is all I can say.

Good day.

[cantbeserious]

30. Thank You For Sharing

eom

[Humanist_Activist]

11. Uhm yeah, they can't distinguish between fantasy and reality. Not every viewpoint is valid...

or sane.

[cantbeserious]

14. Is One Disputing The Existence Of Albert Pike - Is One Disputing He Wrote The Letter

Then Please, take that dispute up with historians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike

[fishwax]

33. is there supposed to be some evidence there that he wrote the letter?

I don't think anyone is disputing that he existed, but the idea that he predicted such global events before the terms he uses had even been invented seems to warrant at least a bit of skepticism.

[cantbeserious]

39. Skepticism Is Always Advised - Maybe The Truth Is Buried In Freemason Archives - Who Knows

eom

[Humanist_Activist]

44. The page you linked to is all about nutty conspiracy theories regarding history and the future...

there is no rationality to be found there.

[cantbeserious]

45. So Say You - Others See The World Differently

eom

[Humanist_Activist]

47. That's not a counterargument, you are welcome to have your own opinions, but not your own facts. n/t

[Scootaloo]

19. That's nonsense

Neither "Fascism" nor "Zionism" were terms in use in 1871. The phrase "The State of Israel" very certainly wasn't in use then! But I notice the piece handwaves that reality by saying "oh but the illuminati invented these phrases!

So goofy

[cantbeserious]

21. Albert Pike Lived - See Wikipedia Link Below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike

[Scootaloo]

23. Yeah, but he probably didn't predict the 20th century in perfect detail, down to the rhetoric

[cantbeserious]

24. Maybe Yes - Maybe No - Truth Can Be Stranger Than Fiction - And Often In Plain Sight

eom

[Scootaloo]

26. Occam's razor

Which is the simpler solution?

A. in 1871, a fellow best-known for establishing Scottish Rite Freemasonry predicted, in perfect detail, the events of the 20th century, right down to the terminology and rhetoric that would be used. This proves that he singlehandedly set all these thigns in motion, and these events followed the course he set forth perfectly, without deviation, all the way to a entury in the future

or

B. Someone in the modern day collected these events, and falsely claims that the guy who is best known for establishing Scottish Rite Fremasonry predicted all of it.

[cantbeserious]

27. Occam's Razor - Great For Science - Not So Much The Affairs Of Man

eom

[Scootaloo]

32. Do you have a primary souce? a copy of this letter, perhaps?

Ideally from a source that isn't predicting biblical end times?

[cantbeserious]

34. No - One Learned About Albert Pike Only Recently - Found The Prospect Of His Vision Interesting

Enough to share.

[AngryAmish]

51. That is what they want you to think!

Those Inner Earth civilizations Are sneaky.

[Delphinus]

20. Well,

that's quite intriguing.

[cantbeserious]

22. One Thought So As Well - Hence The Reason For Sharing

eom

[Journeyman]

37. I'd declare you certainly can't be serious, but then, here you are, making ludicrous declarations...

a little selective reading from the works of Charles MacKay would serve you well.

[cantbeserious]

38. Ad Hominem Attacks Are Against DU Rules

eom

[Journeyman]

41. Posting CT in General Discussion is, however, worthy of ridicule . . .

[cantbeserious]

43. One Man's Conspiracy - Is - Another Man's Fact

eom

[truedelphi]

40. World War One was fought almost exclusively because of the ability of

The vested interests to utilize propaganda to bring the citizens of all of Europe into a conflict that enriched the bankers and the arms dealers. Foreign ministers, who were allied with the bankers, certainly did little, if not outright nothing, to persuade the heads of European nations not to go to war.

I doubt very much they had some 100 year game plan. Greed doesn't work that way.

It was quite helpful that the military generals on all sides decided to treat this war that was basically "infantry fought" as though it were all a cavalry campaign. Not only that, but the citizens in all nations were told that it would all be over by the Christmas holidays of 1914.

Within a year, the generals knew they were wrong, but they couldn't then go about fighting the war in a better way, because first they would have to admit their stupidity. To do that would have meant they would be held accountable for most of the deaths that took place the first year.

Second year of war, same as the first.

Third year of the war, same a the second. And so on, until finally Germany did the decent thing and surrender.

Instead of being thanked for submitting to a surrender, the German people were then pushed into a financial settlement, that would have kept the nation of Germany in debt until the early 1980's.

The fact that most European bankers and foreign ministers were Jewish, and the fact that genetics theory became ascendant during the Nineteen Twenties -- both these factors paved the way for Hitler and his party to take over Germany. (Never mind that the whole genetics argument was a ruse. For instance, we all can determine that here in the USA, our government ministers and bankers of all faiths are willing to put the citizenry into harm's way via needless and endless wars - so genetics should not have been used in this manner.)

So then once Hitler and his band of thugs was in place, you have World War II, during which some fifty million people were killed.

Quite a while ago, Nixon began saying that the world had experienced World War III during all the endless and brutal wars of the USA and Soviet Russia. This War involved of course, our Vietnam war and then Russia's excursion into Afghanistan. With Vietnam War de-stabilizing the area, we then had the Cambodian holocaust. And our governmental ministers, officials and bankers all liked having our nation involved in the wars against the people of Central America, during the 1980's, so the World War III activities continued.

Whether the Egyptian, Syrian situation is part of this World War III period all (and expansion) depends on whether or not Israel is directly attacked. Should that happen, it could well become a thermonuclear war of unprecedented terror, and few of us would be left to debate if the war was "III" or "IV."

[cantbeserious]

42. Agreed - If Israel Is Attacked - All Bets Are Off

eom

[leveymg]

4. IS is a mutation of al-Qaeda which was the Gulf state paramilitary.

ISIS isn't just a cult of 30,000 guys in the desert. It's a multistate sponsored militia. Cut off their funding from KSA and Qatar and 85 percent of them would go back to smuggling and robbery in Eastern Libya.

[edhopper]

7. I don't disagree

But this also is why it is not a World War.

[leveymg]

15. It's a world war in the sense that it is global in scope and pits

Shifting coalitons of major states through proxies against each other. IS/AQ is a proxy force for the Gulf states that have been fighting a low intensity war against Russia and Iran (and their allies) for several decades, with the US and NATO carrying on their own on again off again role as combatants. Technically this is really WW4 while the Cold War preceded it was WW3.

[okasha]

50. Snap!

This is a proxy war, just as Vietnam was. ISIS has taken it internatjonal, though, as the VC never did. It has the potential for escalation and must be addressed now, before it becomes uncontainable.

[edhopper]

52. Vietnam was a proxy War between us and Russia

Who is this a proxy War between.
What is the Superpower fighting the West through ISIS and Al Queda?

[AngryAmish]

53. Well at this point Daesh and Al quida are fighting each other.

Al Nusra in Syria opposes Daesh. An al Quida has denounced Paris attacks.

[edhopper]

54. There are factions and proxies within the Middle East

But this is not a proxy War between superpowers or even nation blocs like Vietnam.

The Pope is simply wrong.

[okasha]

57. Same.

Putin is reviving the cold war through Russia's involvement in Syria. He has imperial ambitions. ISIS is also an indirect threat to both Jordan and Israel, our two best allies in the region.

[edhopper]

58. Though Putin is playing games

Last edited Sun Nov 15, 2015, 08:54 PM - Edit history (1)

he is also fighting ISIS, as are we.

Sorry, it just doesn't compare.

[okasha]

60. No, it doesn't compare. Yet.

Putin wants a foothold in Western Asia, and Assad gives him that.

[edhopper]

65. There are a hundred scenerios that could happen.

Remember the Pope is saying we are in WWIII now. It's bullshit, we are not.

[okasha]

67. Ed, you woildn't agree with the Pope

if he said water is wet.

You don't agree with his statement; I do.

BFD.

[edhopper]

69. And it seems

There is nothing he can say that some people won't welcome and agree with.

[okasha]

70. Soory, Ed, I'm not going to get into

one of your endless-loop arguments.

Good evening.

[edhopper]

71. You are probably right

Last word is yours.

[KingCharlemagne]

80. The ghosts of ho chi minh, general giap and the many valiant

Men and women of the North Vietnamese army and the National Liberation Front would beg to disagree about the proxy-ness of it.

[edhopper]

82. It was a true civil war

used as a proxy war by us and Russia.

But the point stands for use in this discussion. It does not compare to the current conflict.

[leveymg]

74. Precisely. But, it's the terrorist bankers who must be taken out or this reoccurs

That is the thing the US failed to do after 9/11 that could have stabilized the region and prevented the growth of al- Qaeda and its mutation into ISIS.

[merrily]

6. plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Agnosticsherbet]

12. This is a force that operates all around the world.

I think is a world war, though not between nation states.

[edhopper]

18. So are the International drug cartels

which probably cause as much harm in places. That is not a World War either.

[arcane1]

16. Looks to me like several powers fighting over access to resources partly controlled by ISIS

[mountain grammy]

29. I agree, the pope is wrong,

about this and so much more.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Francis is usually wrong and often a bit inciting of violence, actually. Of course he's a Pope and

St Peter's and the Vatican and Rome have been sacked and pillaged in centuries past by Islamic attackers so he comes from a history of being invaded and sacked then doing some crusading and sacking in return. Christendom and all that. Go team.

[Monk06]

46. More like the 30 years war revisited. Most of the same players with moslem expansion into

Europe as the main driver

[pnwmom]

55. He is trying to get the message across about how important it is, even though

it's scattered around the world.

And you're wrong about the threat of getting major powers involved. Anyone who knows the history of WW I and II, as the Pope obviously does, knows you're wrong.

And he isn't calling for a crusade or the use of force. He's calling for peace.

[edhopper]

56. No I am not

Read here where he says force is justified;

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29190890

And I ask this again, what superpowers or nation blocs areon opposing sides that would lead to a World War.

A World War the Pope say we are already in.

I hope he doesn't think the a whole Muslim world is at war with the West.

What major forces does he think are at war?

[pnwmom]

59. He said, "War is madness." n/t

[edhopper]

66. Big fucking deal

he also said force is justified and we are 'IN WWIII".

We are not.

[pnwmom]

75. He was talking about self-defense. The Catholic Church took a strong position

AGAINST the war in Iraq, which Republican "Catholic" politicians ignored. Were you aware of that?

The Church allows for self-defense, but not for wars of aggression. And the Pope has been strongly speaking out on behalf of taking in the refugees, as a positive, non-violent step to take in the face of ISIS.

[edhopper]

78. That was then

now he says use of force against ISIS is justified.

But that is a side issue to his naming this World War III. It simply isn't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. No? Then what are all the drones about? n/t

[edhopper]

63. You think this a World War?

I didn't say it wasn't war.

Big difference.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. we're in year 25

I'd say piecemeal is a good description.

[edhopper]

73. piecemeal sure

but World War?

Tell me the major World powers who are in conflict?

What is your start date for the 25 years?

[L. Coyote]

62. Instead of proclaiming you know better, try to figure out what he is saying.

Just saying, consider for a bit what is the man actually trying to say. You got it all wrong, the Pope is not trying to make this sound like a crusade.

You are being inflammatory.

[edhopper]

64. I think he is being

hyperbolic calling it World War III.

What next? Comparing ISIS to the Nazis?

[Yorktown]

68. IMHO, for once, the Pope says something vaguely true

I have zero respect for the Vatican, and not much more for Christianity.

But it seems to me the that WW4 was ignited in Afghanistan in 1989.
(WW3 being the Cold War, which was as real as this one)

On one side, 1.5 billion Muslims increasingly being radicalized by Saudi and Qatari money.
Ever wondered why folks in Pakistan and Bangladesh are becoming radicalized?
The states are failing to provide adequate education, so Saudi funded madrasas are the oonly choice for millions and millions of kids. And there, they are being taught a mix of simplistic Islam and hate of the decadent West. Any comparison to the brainwashing of kids by Nazi Germany or Communist USSR would be perfectly apt.

Same causes produce the same effects, you can't expect to radicalize huge swathes of 1.6 Bn people, and not get some S to HTF.

[musicblind]

76. Reading your responses

It appears that you believe that a World War requires war between world powers rather than powers around the world. You are arguing semantics.

I can certainly see what the Pope is saying because this violence has slowly begun to involve not just a couple of countries, but the lives, well-being, and concern of citizens spread across the entire globe.

To me, that is the definition of a World War.

And nowhere in his statement did he call for a World War. He called for peace.

[edhopper]

77. When has the World not been so?

The World has always been at war. I think looking at the two World Wars ans this, there is a distinct difference, and this does not amount to those conflicts.

And he justified the use of force against the jihadist.